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Interviews on the Palestinian question, 1964, part 2.
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- speakerIt.
- speakerThis is the Arab occupied sector of Jerusalem on the Jordanian side of the truce line
- speakerbetween Jordan and Israel. The sounds are the sounds of merchants and the
- speakerpeople going to and from the market inside the Damascus Gate Jerusalem
- speakeris a holy city sacred to Jews Muslims and Christians. If
- speakeryou stand far back from the gate, you can pick out several towers silhouetted against the
- speakerclear blue of the Palestinian sky. One or two of the towers are minarets
- speakerrising from Moslem mosques. The rest are the towers of Christian churches.
- speakerI hadn't been here long before I became aware of the Christian community. There is a
- speakersizable body of Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians, somewhat smaller
- speakernumbers of Episcopalians and other Protestants and Christians make up a large
- speakermajority of pilgrims here. I'd heard a lot of talk about the so-called Palestine
- speakerquestion and I got to wondering what some of the church leaders had to say about it. I
- speakerstarted with Pastor Elia Houri, secretary of the diocesan council of the Diocese of
- speakerJordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Pastor Houri is a Palestinian refugee.
- speakerI left new part of Jerusalem. That's the other part of Jerusalem which,
- speakeris occupied by the Zionists on the 10th of May 1948.
- speakerMany Christians believe that the creation of modern Israel is the fulfillment of Old Testament
- speakerprophecy. As a refugee and an Arab Christian pastor do you share this view?
- speakerWell, I'm sorry. I'm afraid I don't really don't agree to this view.
- speakerSome of the Christian leaders in the West hold the confounding of the present state of Israel with
- speakerthe Israel of the Old Testament. The theological reasons
- speakerfor this are too complex to go into at present.
- speakerDo you make a distinction then between Judaism and Zionism?
- speakerOf course. There's a great difference between Judaism and Zionism. To
- speakerus, Judaism is a heavenly religion but Zionism is a
- speakerpolitical movement. Zionism, as a matter of fact, is a
- speakergrave and dangerous deviation from Judaism.
- speakerPastor, there's a widely held view that Palestine has always been predominantly Jewish.
- speakerIs this true?
- speakerThis is not true, sir, at all. As a matter of fact the country,
- speakerfor the last 13th centuries, is predominantly Arab. In 1948 the Jews
- speakerpossessed five percent of the total country. And
- speakerafter the fighting they have occupied 77 percent of the
- speakertotal country. This shows that they have occupied most of the
- speakerArab properties villages and cities and land.
- speakerI called on the right Reverend Najib Kubien, bishop of the Anglican diocese
- speakerhere. His headquarters are in Jerusalem. I asked if the church had ever
- speakertaken an official stand on the political issues of the Palestine question.
- speakerNo I think you know that the church in
- speakerJordan and in the holy land is in a very
- speakerunique situation. It does not belong to one
- speakerdenomination. And therefore, it is not easy for the
- speakerchurch as such to take an official stand as it is.
- speakerBut I know one case and that was at the
- speakerbeginning in 1940, forty-eight
- speakerwhen all the heads of the Christian
- speakerchurch, all of them, in Jerusalem did
- speakersign a statement opposing
- speakerthe partition scheme because their belief is
- speakerthat the holy land cannot be partitioned and once it is partitioned,
- speakerits sanctity and its beauty is
- speakeris poisoned.
- speakerBishop, you mentioned several different Christian communions. Is the Christian community
- speakerin Jordan very large ?the Christian community of all denominations in
- speakerJordan is about 10 percent of the total population.
- speakerBut, I must say that their
- speakerinfluence is much beyond their number.
- speakerThe present Minister of Foreign Affairs is a member of the Greek
- speakerOrthodox Church.
- speakerHis predecessor was a member of the
- speakerEpiscopal community.
- speakerBishop, are the Christian communities in America in any way involved in
- speakerthis Palestine issue?
- speakerThe Christian Church in America has been
- speakerinvolved from the very beginning in supporting the
- speakerrefugees. And, we are very grateful
- speakerfor this help. I happen to be the chairman of the
- speakerNear East Christian Council Committee for refugee work. And, I know a
- speakerbig amount of the funds and goods we
- speakerseem to help refugees. And, all that does come from the
- speakerChristian Church in the United States.
- speakerBishop Kubien went on to say that the new Crippled Children's Home in Jerusalem, of which he
- speakeris board chairman is a direct result of funds from the World Refugee year.
- speakerThe Anglican archbishop in Jerusalem is the most Reverend Angus Campbell MacInnes, who has a
- speakerseat in St. George's Cathedral.
- speakerYour grace, within the framework of the Christian church and within
- speakerthe implications of the Gospel it preaches, do you see any hope for the
- speakerrelieving of these tensions?
- speakerI don't think there's any hope for very rapid relief of the tensions.
- speakerBut I think that the church has lived through these for the last 150 years
- speakerin this country sought to break down some of the prejudices which make
- speakerthe relief of tensions over there much more difficult when
- speakerpeople, at least of this part of the world, look back to the way in
- speakerwhich they have suffered, often at the hands of
- speakerChristians from other parts of the world. That is very true both on the Arab and the
- speakerJewish side. It's not surprising that they often they are apt
- speakerto interpret actions in ways that we should certainly not
- speakerwelcome and very often in the western world. Things are done in
- speakerall good faith which seem to the people here to be
- speakerdefinitely prejudicial to their interests. I think that the
- speakerchurch must, wherever it can, see where that is need
- speakerwhich must be met and seek to meet it in the spirit of Jesus Christ.
- speakerNow that can be found in the way in which the church tackles work on
- speakerrefugees at the moment. Would you be doing
- speakervocational training and trying to improve
- speakeragriculture in providing of loans to enable people to
- speakerget their houses built? There's also the general work
- speakerof education and medical work. These things again
- speakerhelp to relieve the tensions and perhaps soften
- speakersome of the bitter feelings which I say will be found here.
- speakerThat was the Anglican Archbishop in Jerusalem. His quiet council provides
- speakera wholesome antidote to the bitterness and hatred that lies close to the surface
- speakerhere in the holy city of Jerusalem.
- speakerThis is Kenn Carmichael from Jerusalem Jordan.
- speakerThis is Jerusalem, Jordan in front of the Damascus Gate. Sixteen
- speakeryears ago the Arabs and the Israelis were at war. Today and there was a
- speakertruce, but it's an uncertain truce. The sandbags on the
- speakerparapets above the gate and the armed soldiers and gun emplacements are
- speakerenough to remind the visitor that the peace that is being kept.
- speakerIs an uneasy peace. Sixteen years. What's
- speakerhappening, I wondered, to the attitudes of young people who were too young at the time to remember the
- speakerwar of 1948. What about those who were not yet born? What do
- speakerthey think about the so-called PalesPtine question? What do their headmasters and
- speakerteachers have to say? I talked to Mr. Esau Bellotta, academic
- speakerdeputy headmaster of St George's School. The feeling of these students is that.
- speakerThere are about 1 million Palestininan refugees who have lost their land, their
- speakerproperty and their livelihood deprived of them by the Zionist
- speakerJews, who have taken their place in Palestine.
- speakerProfessor, are any of the students at St. Georges Palestinian refugees? Yes.
- speakerWe have some Palestinian refugees amongst our students. Are they
- speakerfrom refugee camps? No. They are not, because
- speakermost of their fathers have
- speakersome kind of employment or another. So they are not ranked as
- speakerrefugees living in camps. How old were they when the war started back in 1948?
- speakerProbably most of them were not born here. These children talk about returning home.
- speakerAll of that is their only wish. They always talk about it. Their parents, their
- speakerrelatives always speak about their beloved country that they were
- speakerdeprived of. And they have one single wish to go back to that country.
- speakerDoes the Palestine question enter the curriculum here at St. Georges at all?
- speakerIt does different stages. At one
- speakerstage at the age of 11 or 12, the
- speakergovernment syllabus includes the Palestine problem in modern history
- speakerand in the study of civics. Are all students required to take this course, Professor?
- speakerYes, they are. At a later stage, the age of
- speaker16 and 17 when the boys are leaving high school. Is
- speakernot a problem for girls. The Palestine problem figures as one of the main subjects for the
- speakerLeaving Examination. Would you say that this instruction is motivated by
- speakerpolitical considerations? Yes. It is motivated by political
- speakerconsiderations. Do you think this is right? Of course, it is right.
- speakerWhy should these people accept the loss of their country, their
- speakerproperty, their livelihood?
- speakerAdministrative headmaster of St George's School is Mr. Farah Telegraph. I
- speakerasked him if he remembered what he was doing at the time war broke out in 1948.
- speakerYes. I was a student in the graduating class. And,
- speakerjust before the end of the British Mandate,
- speakerI was sitting my matriculation in Palestine. And,
- speakerthen the word came to you to leave?
- speakerWas that it?
- speakerNo. We were forced to leave our homes because of the
- speakerriots and the the fightings of the Jews. And, we
- speakercame back to the old city of Jerusalem. Do you see any hope now for a return to
- speakeryour home? Certainly I do. And, of course, the hope
- speakerthat this will be done soon. When you do come to work here at St. Georges? I
- speakercame to St. Georges in 1953, and before this time, I was
- speakerworking elsewhere.
- speakerAre there many refugees who have been able to find employment such as you have?
- speakerI dont think so because quite a number of them are not able until now to find
- speakeremployment. In spite of the fact that the United Nations Relief
- speakerand Works Agency and our government and the Arab governments are
- speakerdoing their best to find employment for these people.
- speakerSir, when you left your home in 1948, did you at that time have any thought of returning
- speakersoon?
- speakerYes. We had and we thought we were leaving our home for a week
- speakeror so. Thats why I still have my keys with me.
- speakerI talked with some of the students at St. Georges including Camille Nasser,
- speakernow in his tenth year of school. I was not born yet at that time. Were there
- speakerany other brothers and sisters in the family? No. No. You were born then after
- speakeryour family left Palestine, was that right? Yes. Do you know some of the
- speakerevents that happened at that time,
- speakerhowever, from stories you may have heard? My, my father and mother always talk about
- speakerthe occupied Palestine. And, I hear many
- speakerstories from my relatives and from the members of the Y.M.C.A.
- speakerMC What about printed sources? Are you able to read anything about the
- speakerevents of those days?
- speakerOf course. There are many books published in Arabic and Jordan about the
- speakerPalestinian problem from early times. The book starts
- speakerto introduce this problem from 1917
- speakerand onwards what happened every year. Then
- speakerour teachers in school tell us many things
- speakerabout the other side. Describing the cities and
- speakereverything and tell us the even historical events. And this year the
- speakergovernment introduced a book about the Palestine problem
- speakerexplaining in it everything that the student must know and Arab must
- speakerknow about this problem.
- speakerSami George is in his 11th year at St. Georges school. In
- speaker1948,
- speakerI was in Jerusalem living with my family which is which is
- speakernow in Palestine. In occupied Palestine? In occupied Palestine, yes.
- speakerDo you remember the day that you left home? No, I don't. I was too
- speakeryoung for the term. How old were you, Sam? I was two years old. Are you
- speakerthe youngest of the family? Yes, I am. Was your family able to bring any of its possessions out
- speakerof Jerusalem at the time? No
- speakerwe weren't able because it was a rush
- speakerand even our house was looted.
- speakerDo your brother and sister in the United States expect to come back to Jordan?
- speakerMy brother expects to come back, there because he's a student
- speakerand he wants to return and see his family. My sister, she
- speakerhas already a family and she will
- speakerstay in the United States. Sammy,
- speakercoes your family expect to return someday to Palestine?
- speakerYes. We always talk about it at home. Do you think it's going to happen?
- speakerYes, it will. Someday when the Arab unity has been completed. When
- speakerthe Arab unity has been completed. And, when will that be?
- speakerSami says it will be some day. And, most Arabs
- speakershare that hope. This is Kenn Carmichael from Jerusalem.
- speakerJordan
