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Bill Lytle interviewed by Charles Quirk, 1981, side 1.
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- speakerCharles E. Quirk conducting an oral history interview with Bill Lytle on May 26
- speaker1981 in Houston Texas. Bill what is your
- speakerown racial ethnic identity? White.
- speakerAnglo.
- speakerSaxon. Now you were born in Pittsburgh, is that correct? right. In July
- speakerJuly 3rd 1923. As I understand it your
- speakerfather was a Presbyterian minister? United. The old U. P. church [United Presbyterian Church of North America] Old U. P. What are your
- speakerown ethnic origins? Where is your family?
- speakerOut of. Ireland Scotland. That kind of tracing goes
- speakerback on both sides.
- speakerAnd you grew up in Ben Avon primarily? Right.
- speakerDuring this early period in your life in grade school, highschool, Did you have any
- speakersignificant contact with
- speakerpeople of racial ethnic identity?
- speakerNo significant contact other than friendship
- speakerwith one black in my class
- speakerthrough all of my schooling, George Farmer.
- speakerI have reflected on that.
- speakerSad to say that without any sensitivity at all. I am now aware
- speakerlooking back on my childhood. I walked to school over
- speakerthe ravine in which the black families apparently lived.
- speakerAnd we called it Coon Hollow. That was the terminology
- speakerused. And, I said I had no,
- speakerno sensitivity to that at all, even though, in my home my early
- speakerrecollections of my mother
- speakerare of her deep interest in Tuskegee Institute. And, I remember her doing
- speakerprograms and the like so that
- speakerthat was about my only orientation to race.
- speakerYou went to the College of Wooster. Started in 1941. What were
- speakeryour academic interests at Wooster?
- speakerWell I majored in Greek philosophy. That was my. Had you
- speakerdecided to go into the ministry by then? Yes. I made my
- speakerdecision in college. Had really given consideration to it before.
- speakerWhat about Wooster? Was there much racial ethnic diversity in that student body,
- speakerfaculty? I can't remember.
- speakerHow did you happen to choose Princeton Seminary for your divinity work?
- speakerMy father was the pastor of a church in Ben Avon that was the seminary
- speakerchurch of the old U. P. denomination, in the sense that all the professors, or most, a majority of them.
- speakerhad their homes in that neighborhood and attended the Ben Avon church.
- speakerMy folks encouraged me early on to do something different.
- speakerSo that I would be out of that. So, I joined the Presbyterian Church while I was at Wooster and went to Princeton.
- speakerI looked at Union and Princeton, those were the two schools that I looked at seriously.
- speakerOK. Well, while you were at Princeton, were there some subjects or some areas that were particularly
- speakerexciting to you
- speakeracademically? Mackay's [Mackay, John Alexander] course in ecumenics was a mindboggler fo
- speakerr me early on. The Bible courses with Dr. Fritsch [Fritsch, Charles Theodore] were of real significance. And, Hromadka's [Hromadka, Joseph L.] course in
- speakerethics. I guess those are the three that
- speakerstand out. As you think back to those Princeton years,
- speakerI know that you went to Princeton in two different segments, but as you think back to your
- speakerfirst stint at Princeton, what was the racial ethnic composition
- speakerof the student body and the faculty? Was there much diversity at that time?
- speakerI do not recall any racial-ethnic persons. There were some
- speakerEuropeans on the faculty, which were. But, that would still
- speakerbe of the Caucasian background. I don't remember there being anyone of other racial ethnicity there.
- speakerWhen you left Princeton, did you go directly into what I would call
- speakermissionary work in Mexico? How did you choose this? Your entire
- speakerorientation thus far had been northern and intellectual. And then, you headed down to New Mexico.
- speakerThat happened through summer exposure to
- speakermission, working under the auspices of the Board of National Missions. My first
- speakersummer at Princeton, I went down to the mountains of Tennessee. The next summer w
- speakerent out to a little church in Chama, New Mexico and pastored that church [Chama Presbyterian Church]. You
- speakerknow Ralph Hall [Hall, Ralph J.]. During that summer time. He came back to the campus during our senior year and presented to m
- speakeryself the challenge of
- speakerthe particular need that they had for a person in New Mexico.
- speakerNow. You were in New Mexico for what? Fifteen years. fifteen years. In that period what
- speakerwas your particular contact now with other racial-ethnic groups?
- speakerWe lived in Reserve, New Mexico for the first seven years. Reserve is a small town of about 150 people. County seat of Catron County.
- speakerThe
- speakerpredominant. The predominant.
- speakerRacial group within the area would be Mexican American.
- speakerReally Hispanic, they call themselves probably in that area. They would see
- speakerthemselves as the original settlers in
- speakerNew Mexico area. These people. There. I. Few of them are in
- speakerthe church. And we certainly don't a lot of the youth of the
- speakerSpanish background. No blacks in the area at all.
- speakerBut our work was primarily with white
- speakerAnglo-Saxon persons, again ranching families.
- speakerThe ministry was used to bring the church into such
- speakersparsely settled areas where it otherwise couldn't go. I had little contact with Native
- speakerAmericans. There were one or two sawmill camps in which Native American families and
- speakertheir children worked. And, in the summertime and our vacation bible school
- speakerprogram we would be moving out into these areas. And, at that
- speakertime, would have a lot of children. We had very little contact with adults, who
- speakerwere mostly of Roman Catholic background although
- speakerthe kids would come to our youth fellowship, who we'd seldom see otherwise. So.
- speakerI've always regretted the fact and see it as some insensitivity on
- speakermy part that I did not right on pick up the Spanish language, because
- speakerlanguage has always been an easy thing for me. And, for fifteen years in New Mexico,
- speakerliving in that milieu, I did
- speakernot feel constrained to learn the Spanish language, which I regret, but that's the truth.
- speakerIn the middle of that
- speakerexperience, you chose to go back to Princeton? Why did you do that?
- speakerWe were isolated so much in those first seven years from any
- speakercontact with other people. I would get to presbytery meetings once or twice a
- speakeryear. But had no other contact and began really wondering if
- speakerthe gospel that I was preaching was, indeed, the good news. And, I wanted
- speakerto
- speakerrefresh myself in that area. So, it was primarily to look at that, and then also.
- speakerI lived in a Southern Baptist region Southern Baptists' approach to t
- speakerheir churchmanship, their whole concept of church discipline.
- speakerThis was of interest to me, so I actually did my master's
- speakerthesis on Paul, Pauline discipline of the New Testament.
- speakerAnd then you went back to New Mexico for a few more years, and then you went to the College of the
- speakerOzarks. What exactly was your role there?
- speakerI directed the Ozarks area mission, which it.
- speakerneeds to be said that the college had just been taken over, I guess would be one
- speakerway of saying by the Board of National Missions in 1960. The College having fallen on bad
- speakerdays financially. It had been related to
- speakerthe church through the C. E., through higher education. They had dropped it, and the Board picked
- speakerit up at synod's request.
- speakerAnd, it was at that point that the Board of National Missions saw a college campus
- speakeras a possibility of a witness to an entire area, not just what happened to students who
- speakerwould go to it against what happens to an area because a college related to the church is in that
- speakerarea. And it was in that kind of vision that that program was
- speakerdevised. The Ozarks Area Mission, which was an attempt to involve
- speakerstudents and faculty in off campus s
- speakerervice,ministries. It started out on Sundays with youth teaching,
- speakerchurch school and youth groups in this kind of program in assisting pastors in the
- speakerarea. But, it began then to build over the years into a program
- speakerwhere students at any discipline might find ways in which
- speakerthat particular discipline could be used in service. P. E. would go in communities where
- speakerrecreation was minimal and work in that. Drama students could help them
- speakerin school programs where drama was not a possibility. To have
- speakerthat kind of music the same, business students still are helping elderly
- speakerpeople with their income tax forms. It's. It's an
- speakerattempt to really impact a neighborhood. And it's
- speakeralso seen as the best way to get students at a
- speakertime at ar decision-making point in their lives to be in touch with people
- speakerin service. In service.
- speakerThat was my major responsibility, three fourths of my time. One fourth, I was a professor of
- speakerBible. This program. Was it basically oriented
- speakerfor whites to whites? Or was there some racial ethnic mix? Racial-ethnic
- speakermix. Was. Was, soon into it. Let me put
- speakerit that way. One of the happy things about that remembrance of the ten years at C. F. O. We
- speakerwent there in 62. Was he that tcollege
- speakerintegrated in 57. I realize that
- speakerintegration is a poor word now. Integration was the in word then. And, it
- speakerwas a step
- speakerthat took. So that the same year that Faubus [Faubus, Orval Eugene, Governor of Arkansas, 1955-1967] tried to stop students at Central High
- speakerSchool in Little Rock, was the year that the Board of National Missions, or CFO opened its doors. The Board was
- speakernot part of it then.
- speakerWhen we came there were still just a smattering maybe three or four black students
- speakerwho were at the school.
- speakerWe worked with that group and involved them in our program.
- speakerI think this was one of the places where they really felt like they could get
- speakerinvolved and do something themselves. So.
- speakerI want to say about the College that
- speakerI, looking back on it, still see it as one of the pioneer efforts of the church to make a dent through this
- speakerwitness that was made there.
- speakerWe had at that time, or the Board had, three educational counselors.
- speakerOne Hispanic in New
- speakerMexico, one Native American in Arizona and one black
- speakerin Atlanta, Georgia. They fed students. We
- speakerdidn't get too many Hispanic or Native American, through the years, we only had a small number of those. But, w
- speakere had during those years an amazing number of
- speakerhighly talented, sophisticated black youth, who came to C. F. O. We put
- speakerthem against the unsophisticated rural white students that we. That makes
- speakerup the bulk, or did then, made up the bulk of the C.F. O. student body.
- speakerYou really had built in the dynamics of tension. During
- speakersummer in our program. We would encourage these students to go into all kinds of ministry, using
- speakeragain the Board of National Missions VIM program for the most part. So that
- speakerthere were times when C.F.O. had 40 students in the summertime out in summer
- speakerprojects across the country. We had them in Kodak in Rochester. We had them in
- speakerLos Angeles. We had them in Laurinsburg in North Carolina.
- speakerAnd these students would really get caught up in the middle of what was going on in the
- speakersummertime. And then, we'd come back to a sleepy college campus
- speakerone that where the rest of the students had been out
- speakerat home doing the normal thing and making money. And, in time, it did build to a tension point, and we
- speakerhad 40 of our black students walk off the campus. Did they come back? They did not come back. They didn't.
- speakerWell, in 73 then you went from Madison Square Presbyterian
- speakerChurch in San Antonio. And your church has a reputation for
- speakerinvolvement in the community. Could you describe for us what
- speakerkinds of things go on at Madison Square Church?
- speakerI don't know that we. Say that we have a reputation. At least, I'm
- speakernot aware of it at this point. I think we've been a fairly staid congregation.
- speakerWe are involved, as other churches are, in the normal ways
- speakerof ministering to people in need. The kinds of
- speakerthings that people quickly respond to in the way of emergency help. We are able to find downtown cooperative ministry that way, which
- speakertouches a lot of people. This is an ecumenical venture? This is an ecumenical venture. That
- speakertakes Roman Catholic through Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist.
- speakerWe're one of the churches that is in that program. The thing that
- speakerwe're getting into, as a congregation, I have been into it personally I
- speakerthink we're getting into his congregation now is a metropolitan-wide parish
- speakerdevelopment program, using as our consultants the Industrial Areas Foundation people.
- speakerThere are now seven congregations who have elected to become a part of that
- speakerorganizing group. Madison Square will be voting on that actually next Tuesday, a week from tonight. Our session has it on the agenda as to
- speakerwhether or not we will be a part of it.
- speakerI look forward to it to pass. It's gone through quite a process of personal interviewing and the like. But that would
- speakerbe, would be a group, an ecumenical group of
- speakerpeople, interracial. Primarily, at the present time,
- speakerHispanic and Anglo, with the hope that it will in time
- speakerinclude black congregations as well. It will simply
- speakerbe a consciousness-raising, civic awareness type of thing to try to emp
- speakerower people of middle class status in San Antonio
- speakerto become a part of the decision-making process, so that we don't sit helplessly by as
- speakerneighborhood deteriorate, as problems at the schools that we think are too big for us, as televisions programs overwhelm us. That t
- speakerhere will be a forum where we can begin talking about what are the things that are pressing us as families, individuals, congregations,
- speakerneighborhoods. And then find a network of other people in the city who have like concerns and we may join forces.
- speakerIs your congregation overwhelmingly white? Yes there are. Are there any
- speakerHispanics or black?
- speakerYes there are. But, I have to say, it is still overwhelmingly white.
- speakerWe're not a large congregation. We are 500 for a downtown church.
- speakerWe do not begin to reflect in our congregation as
- speakersuch the mix of San Antonio. We do Vietnamese
- speakerfamily that has now in-laws and so on in it. That has been a part of that
- speakercongregation. We sponsored a family that just has really been well-received into the life of the
- speakerchurch. We do have what? five
- speakersix Spanish surname families in the congregation.
- speakerWe have one black family in the congregation.
- speakerThat's. When you were elected moderator of the
- speakerhundred ninetieth General Assembly in 1978. You. The newspapers said
- speakerthat you billed yourself as a conservative evangelical. I was wondering if you ncould upackage
- speakerthat language. What do you mean by it?
- speakerWhat I meant by it then and what I still would say now is, "I hate labels."
- speakerI just don't.
- speakerthink that you can pick turns. I don't like to give terms away.
- speakerI consider myself a conservative theologically, biblically. I see
- speakermyself as one whose roots are very deep in a very
- speakerOrthodox. And, if we want to say, in a conservative orthodox tradition where
- speakerI see myself in that tradition. Not I. That is my roots. I
- speakerhave never backed away from them. Evangelical, in
- speakerthe sense in which I said I know evangelical. It is to believe that Jesus Christ is
- speakerLord of my life. To be desirous of seeing
- speakerthe Lordship of Christ. Be owned not only in my
- speakerlife but in society. In every facet of life.
- speakerI see that as evangelical. I'm charismatic.
- speakerI don't want to give that word away either. I believe that each of us have gifts
- speakerthat are special. That, indeed, we're we are empowered by the
- speakerSpirit of God. I'm just saying I do see myself in that strain.I'm
- speakernot. I don't have some of the gifts that others claim to have. I don't have some of the, the evangelical
- speakerzeal that others have. I admit
- speakerthat. But I still want to own
- speakerand not give up some things that are part of me. Now I'm also a liberal in my
- speakerown persuasions and orientations. I am aware of that. People would say that I am a liberal strain.
- speakerWould you say that you're fairly typical of United Presbyterian Church leadership.
- speakerIn the late 70s? Yes