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Board of National Missions miners hospitals discussions, April 1963, tape 6.
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- speakerI recommend the tour it's covering a number of them that we were discussing yesterday on the
- speakerspecial report on Health and Welfare. [Bob Barrie] Before we begin our discussion, I would like to
- speakerask Dr. Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] if he can suggest some way that we
- speakermight proceed here, perhaps save a little more time.
- speaker[Neigh] Well, during the interim between these
- speakertwo meetings, two people have
- speakerindicated that they would like make
- speakerstatements. The first is Dr. Heydinger [Heydinger, David K.], who would like to speak a few minutes.
- speakerand I don't think anybody can confine himself to three minutes on this debate. I would
- speakerlike to say, as you do make your statement, that there is
- speakersomething that you can probably ought to
- speakerspeak to and that is an impression that sums up
- speakeras an alternative plan.
- speakerHere, Mr. Rogers [Rogers, Lon B.], who
- speakeris the member of the Board [Board of National Missions] from this whole area.
- speakerI think it will be well for us to hear from Mr. Rogers.
- speakerQuestions were raised yesterday aboht the seventy-five thousand dollars, which is
- speakerinvolved on the part of the Board of National Missions. I think it is
- speakerwell for you to hear very briefly from the
- speakerDirector of the Budget, Dr. Stewart. [Stewart, Archibald K.] And, then,
- speakersince there seems to be some
- speakerquestion in the minds of some of the Board people as to where I stand on this, I
- speakerthink that, if the Board will permit me, I would like to make a statement
- speakeralso on this. Now, I think that we. [Barrie]
- speakerDr. Heydinger first. Mr. President, may I ask if we have any time scheduled
- speakeror limitation on debate in mind on this thing? Or should it be considered? Or shall we
- speakerconsidered? Or shall we take as long as necessary even if we?
- speakerI think we should. Duly, in
- speakermy judgment, is on, I think, the thing has been thoroughly explored,
- speakeror is that asking too much? Well, that's
- speakerputting him on the spot. I'll sit on the front seat and see how you think, Bill. [William C. Latta]
- speakerRight. I concur. I think that this, what I am trying to
- speakersay, Bob, is this. I don't think we can limit it perhaps to any
- speakerparticular time scheduled, but I think we can all pretty much
- speakerrealize is the picture formed? Is there anything more to add to the picture?
- speakerAnd, if you are willing to trust my judgment, when I think the picture is complete
- speakerI am willing. I think that is the best I can say.
- speakerSo. Then, I think I would call on Dr.
- speakerHeydinger [Heydinger, David K.] first, if this is agreeable, doctor?
- speakerEast
- speaker[Heydinger] Last night I said to Ken that I would like three minutes. That was
- speakerbefore I walked your lovely streets until about two thirty.
- speakerAnd so I really need to speak to you again, for, and
- speakerI hope you'll forgive me for reading some of this, but I want to be as brief as possible because I wrote it down.
- speakerI said I hope you'll forgive me for reading some of this, but I wrote it down in
- speakercontradistinction to that which I gave yesterday.
- speakerAnd I need to speak to you again because I think I can show you what
- speakerhas been wrongly termed as two sides of this problem. Actually I think we're quite
- speakerclose together, but I think I base my decision from a different training
- speakerbackground.
- speakerThere is and has been so little time for you to make a really tremendous decision here, but it
- speakerhas to be made. And I think that I can outline each side for you briefly, and I
- speakerhope fairly, so that perhaps your decision will be easier
- speakerAs I said I did not prepare the talk I gave yesterday purposely because I wanted to
- speakerawait anything new that might be forthcoming from the speakers yesterday that hopefully
- speakermight change my mind. And nothing did. I'm afraid that the
- speakerbest that might be said for the unprepared presentation yesterday was that it showed
- speakerconviction and please not courage. Courage, I
- speakerthink, is when you do something knowing that you might or your loved one might be hurt. And,
- speakersince this as yet isn't that type of battle, courage must be when you get up in front of a group like
- speakerthis and say something you don't believe in. I say this because the
- speakerinterpretation of my statements were, that I made yesterday, were not what I was
- speakerattempting to say. For example I didn't say, as Dr
- speakerRosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.] said, that several hospitals would close if we took them over. I said one or two
- speakermight close. Bob Barrie and I have told them constantly down there that, of course, we might have to close one or
- speakertwo of the hospitals maybe temporarily. It depended on the circumstances. But
- speakerlet me begin. Number one both sides if you wish it that way we both
- speakeragree as to the need. Number two we both agree that it's an
- speakerexciting and challenging situation which to me has fantastic possibilities
- speakerand actually just in the policy that we as a board accepted to try and start in the
- speakersouthwest that's what's so good about.
- speakerNumber three we both agree that the large capital expenditures can be procured.
- speakerWe are both, I think, fearful of many of the little facets
- speakerof this. The continuing funds that we'll need for example. Can
- speakerthe legislature continue to help these hospitals, as the governor [Combs, Bert T.] said,
- speakerand not get such a cry that they won't help all of the hospitals in Kentucky that are running
- speakerin the red? And many of them are, I can assure you. Will the Area
- speakerMedical administrators of the United Mine Workers, who really control the purse strings,
- speakerfor medical care of miners, will they continue to send their patients to our hospitals
- speakerwhich we know will run at least at a thirty five dollars per diem cost, when
- speakeranother and frankly a good hospital such as it is in Beckley, will do it for
- speakertwenty seven dollars per diem? Don't forget that research and teaching are
- speakerexpensive.
- speakerI have to see how I wrote this. I wrote it on sides of things that I'm not sure of
- speakerfrankly and I don't know where I went from there
- speakerI apologize. I must go through this again.
- speakerThere are many more of these in this
- speakermatter of money, but I leave that to the Finance Committee, but I think we both agree that these are quite
- speakerpossibly surmountable. Four, we both agree that the scientific
- speakerpersonnel and administrative staffs are there and that it's possible to keep at least, and I
- speakerthink this is a little optimistic, eighty percent of these to continue the operation of these
- speakerhospitals.
- speakerBut now we come to the area of disagreement.
- speakerNow, when I said yesterday that we do not have the organization to accomplish
- speakerthis in the time allotted, I obviously was not referring to what Dr
- speakerRosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.] says was a fully organized staff. I realize that they are fully organized. But this is what I
- speakerwas. I was not referring to this. Let me tell you the organization we must have.
- speakerThe area board that has been suggested cannot do the job of which I
- speakerspeak because this is a board of volunteers, just as this board is, and they only
- speakerhave a certain limited amount of time. Also it's going to take a moderate amount of time to choose this
- speakerboard and more time to educate them to the problem and the desires of our church in
- speakerrunning such hospitals. And, we don't even know what those are for sure. Now
- speakerthe full time executive of which they spoke, and to which I agree, may be a
- speakerhelp in doing this, but to get a really qualified man in a position like this takes
- speakertime. And, no really good man can just suddenly quit his job and start out
- speakertomorrow. Therefore think of the organization you must have.
- speakerSomeone, probably a physician or a medical economist at best, who also
- speakermust be in accord with our philosophy for these hospitals, must immediately
- speakergo and talk to these medical staffs. Now this just isn't at Harlan and the other four
- speakerhospitals that we're considering as our first five. But the other five as well.
- speakerthe Beckley physicians have told me four times since I left there and a number of times when I
- speakerwas there, that even though they may not fall in this first group, someone must talk to
- speakerthem as soon as we make up our minds and appraise them of our policy.
- speakerAppraise them of our policy on--Are we going to have a closed or an Open Stack? And, I'm sure
- speakermany of you do not know what we mean by this. Are we going to continue research?
- speakerThey said they don't want to get in the large group, they only want to be with a man hospital. Will they
- speakerget Social Security, four of them wanted to know because they won't stay in it unless they could get Social
- speakerSecurity. And, I can go on and on and on, and this must be done soon. Or, as they
- speakertold me, they will lose some of their men. Now, we spoke of being able,
- speakerbecause of our set up to procure physicians or Dr Rosenfeld did.
- speakerFor example they have research labs, tremendous labs in
- speakerpulmonary cardiology research. Now, I don't know if Betty
- speakerknows what a pulmonary cardio physiologist is or not,
- speakerbut these are hard to get. And, these are the men we are going to have to get. And, if you don't have them, you're
- speakerimmediately going to lose a high percent of your beneficiaries because these are pulmonary problems. These are
- speakerjust the little things that must be gone. We've lost one already at Harlan. He's gone. The only other
- speakerone we have in this group, I believe, although I'm not sure Williamson is at Beckley.
- speakerand Dr Wilder told me that they were afraid they were going to lose him to the Mayo Clinic.
- speakerDo you think that Harlan and the other hospitals in this group can set up their own private practice group?
- speakerAbsolutely not. These men have had no experience in this especially in Harlan.
- speakerAnd, yet we have said they must set up a private practice group. Now let me
- speakergive you an example. At one of the hospitals we plan to purchase in this first group, one of the
- speakerphysicians, and this is fine, has assumed a head of this possible future group.
- speakerYet several of the physicians came to me, and these were three key physicians
- speakerthere, and said that if this man takes over as head of this group, we're going to leave. These are the
- speakerlittle things that someone's going to have to be there to do. As I say, these are
- speakerjust a few of the problems in the organization that must be met but they must be met quickly because we must
- speakerstop this already increasing outflow of professional personnel that's
- speakergoing on right now. If we need more in
- speakerthis organization. Who's going to be the man who's going to be talking to the Kentucky state legislators for
- speakerexample to see that we get what we frankly must have from them. Someone's going to have to be
- speakerthere we can't just say well they said they'll do it now let's we'll just let them do it. Who's going
- speakerto barter with the Kentucky State Medical Association to drop the no offices in the
- speakerhospital. Effect. Sure it can be done. It will take you nine months
- speakerThis must be done for the longer again each of these little problems remain unsolved, more and
- speakermore nurses, technicians, therapists, and physicians will be leaving. They don't have the
- speakermotivation. I feel that we say we have. Who's going to be
- speakertalking to the United States government to arrange the money we need and arrange in a manner
- speakeracceptable to our church?
- speakerWho's going to dicker with the United Mine Workers. And I mean dicker though that is legally
- speakeracceptable to our legal department and down in a legal manner, that they will
- speakercontinue to send miner beneficiaries to our hospitals
- speakerand to send them in the quantity demanded by the report to make these hospitals run in the black.
- speakerNow this includes assurance that they won't, as they once did,
- speakertake away some of these benefits, to take away some of the medical benefits from the
- speakerbeneficiaries. Did you know that in the larger hospitals, and these are our
- speakermainstay in this, that much of the OR some of their income and a fair amount at Beckley
- speakercomes from beneficiaries flown in from all over the country. Now who is going to
- speakerget signed sealed and delivered that this will continue. That they won't send them to the
- speakeruniversity hospitals that they used to send them to. And of course they're going to have to if we lose
- speakerour cardiopulmonary physiologist for example. They'll have to send them to the other hospitals.
- speakerWho's going to talk to the private physicians in these towns
- speakerand explain to them our and the area problem and get them to
- speakeragree to our method of set up, which we don't even know as yet, but I think it can be
- speakerdone. But again this is going to take someone in there to do it, because we have some highly vocal
- speakerPresbyterians in these groups.
- speakerAnd this is, I'd like to beat a couple of them in the head, if you want my honest opinion. And, I hope this isn't being
- speakerrecorded. Now this in itself,
- speakerthese private physicians, for example, will take several wise and well known
- speakerphysicians dedicated to our work.
- speakerThey must even talk one or two of the physicians, that is in one or two of these towns, into
- speakerletting our doctors as we call them now, be in the county medical society, which they
- speakernever have in Pikeville, for example. I was talking in another town to even let them join the Country
- speakerClub, which they have in mind.
- speaker[Heydinger] I could go on and on and, but I think you can see what a top notch organization this
- speakeris going to take to accomplish this. And, this is the organization of which I spoke. They can't
- speakerdo it themselves. They can run the hospital, but this is not enough at this time.
- speakerIt must be done now. I feel it can be done, but I
- speakerfeel it cannot be properly done in the time allotted to us.
- speakerThe time factor, which is dictated by the situation is beating us. That's all there
- speakeris to it, And this is where we disagree, I think. Bob [Bob Barrie] is sure it can be done
- speakerin the time allotted.
- speakerI am sure it cannot and end up with the type of hospitals we would want as
- speakerrepresenting us. And, this is a really a very small disagreement,
- speakerfrankly. Then I apologize, but I must add something else, a very
- speakerimportant fact. I mention to you James McGilvray's [McGilvray, James Clifford] report to our Division in the hopes
- speakerthat some of you would like to read it, and no one requested it. And this is
- speakerwrong.
- speakerI remind you that he is in full time work in our church. He was in the
- speakerhospital consulting field, just as Dr Rosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.] is. He has had tremendous
- speakerexperience in setting up hospitals in India and especially in the Philippines, where by the
- speakerway he developed a group of hospitals into much the same type of set up that we are trying to do.
- speakerHe and several others, and this is the reason I requested this be a
- speakerfamily meeting. He and several others at the Lexington meeting felt that Dr
- speakerRosenfeld's figures were not realistic and that we as a church
- speakerdid not have the resources to properly do the job.
- speakerIn the time allotted I think he would add. So there is your problem.
- speakerBelieve me, whatever your decision is I know it will be right.
- speakerNow how do I know this well I know it because the Division of Health and Welfare, both the Board and the
- speakerstaff, will work like mad to prove you're right. We're not going to take our tin
- speakerdishes and go home whichever way you decide. I would like to straighten you out on
- speakeranother misconception.
- speakerGordon Corbett [Synod of Kentucky Executive] who is here came to me at dinner last night and wanted to know the name of the organization
- speakerI said was ready to take over if we didn't take it.
- speakerI did not make such a statement. I said that we did not accept. That I said that
- speakerif we did not accept, we have given to anyone who wants to take over, a plan which a
- speakerhighly respectable consulting firm says is feasible. Secondly I
- speakersaid that I had a long session with a friend from George Washington University School of Medicine and from this came
- speakeran idea which possibly might not only maintain the hospitals but bring money into the area.
- speakerGordon asked me then could they do it by Wednesday. And this
- speakerbothers me, not what you say, Gordon, but that this was brought up yesterday. You know I resent
- speakervery frankly what was said yesterday that, to the board, that you have until
- speakerWednesday. And if you don't do it no one else will do it. This statement was made.
- speakerDo you see what is happening? This is, this is a little bit of the harm that
- speakercomes from continuing in this, and this harm we accepted, and we
- speakermust. You know this is like a chronically ill patient. Doctors have this happen all the time. And
- speakerthis is a chronically ill patient by the way down there. This is like a chronically ill patient,
- speakerwho after a while, because the doctor isn't doing what he thinks ought to be done, begins to
- speakerblame the doctor for his illness. And this is what's happening here, they said.
- speakerIf we don't take it no one else will, and they implied then, that if these people came
- speakerout with poor medical care, it would be our fault. And, this is no good. This is
- speakersomething we must watch because, of course, we have a responsibility
- speakerto them. But others have a responsibility too. They say no other organization
- speakerhas come forth. I say that we are preventing other organizations from coming forth. The newspapers
- speakerhave been constantly talking of our negotiations, that is between the Presbyterians the
- speakerUnited Mine Workers. Of course, we have a moral responsibility, but others do too. The state of
- speakerKentucky has a moral responsibility to keep these open. I'm sorry, I never in my life
- speakerbefore said a governor was wrong. But the governor of Kentucky was wrong. They are practicing
- speakermedicine. I can show you beautiful hospitals that they pay all the physicians and are practicing medicine.
- speakerOf course they can practice medicine. The United Mine Workers has the greatest moral
- speakerresponsibility of all. They brought it in. They built the hospitals, and now they're closing it.
- speakerKen [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] was right when he spoke of our role to reconcile. And, but maybe we can reconcile our
- speakerpositions. I mention to you that I had another idea.
- speakerI did not want to mention it, because all you need to do is get this idea out of this room from
- speakercoming from not the right source. And, I'm not the right source. But, I do know one or two it could be. And,
- speakeryou would immediately ruin it.
- speaker[Heydinger] Believe me this is the way this works. But, I want to tell you. I think maybe there is an answer to this
- speakerI think it's time we throw the ball back to them a little bit. I'm a little tired of this position of
- speakerthe United Mine Workers no give. We're closing July the first will operate untiil October the first
- speakerwith this is three months this is nothing. I don't know exactly what you might want to say,
- speakerbut first of all I think we do not have the resources to
- speakerstop the closing. Why don't we say this. You know
- speakersometimes it's better to cut off a leg to save a life. And maybe it wouldn't
- speakerbe too bad if these hospitals had to close. I'm personally, but I won't
- speakergo into this, not sure they will. But at the same time, this doesn't mean they have to stay closed
- speaker[Heydinger] We need more time if we're going to do this. I don't think it's too horrible thing if these four
- speakerclose. I don't know. I could I ask Phil Young, but I don't know how far Hazard is from the nearest
- speakerhospital, but I can tell you that there are many people in the United States much further away from medical care.
- speakerThere. The United Mine Workers, you notice, isn't closing all of
- speakerthese hospitals. They are closing four. And they've scared everyone in. And, I suddenly realized
- speakerlast night that we're all running scared because they said they're going to close them. And, they're
- speakerscaring us into quick and possibly poor decisions, perhaps to get rid of their
- speakerproblems. And this again is the reason I didn't want John Newdorp here, for example, who I so highly
- speakeradmire, because I would not want anything taken personally. So
- speakerperhaps maybe we could say this. Perhaps maybe we could say that we don't have the
- speakerresources to stop these four hospitals from closing. We are interested in them. We would like to take over
- speakerthese hospitals. Would either you State of Kentucky or you the United Mine Workers, or you
- speakerthe United States government, who have just as much responsibility, in fact a lot more than we do
- speakerbasically. You keep the four open if you think they have to be kept open. In the
- speakermeantime, give us a minimum of one year. Frankly I'm scared
- speakerto say that. I'd like to have two, but all right I'll say one or whatever. Maybe I can get Bob [Barrie, Bob] to agree to. And, Bob has not
- speakerheard this. We talked this morning, but I said I was going to let it fall to him right here. You know when I have enough
- speakertime you know to pick up and get at me too much. But perhaps give us
- speakerat least a year, and then let us continue in this. Now, even if we
- speakerdemanded a year or two, we would have to have a crash program. We'd have to get all of
- speakerour public relations people, every department that I can think of, working overtime to
- speakerhunt out the resources that Bob [Barrie] and Ken [Neigh] know that we have in our churches to
- speakerdo this job.
- speakerThis organization of which I spoke.
- speaker[Heydinger] Sure we would lose some of the personnel down there, but perhaps not too many. And,
- speakerthe idea of which I spoke, and I respectfully request that you do
- speakernot mention this to anyone because you don't know, I don't know, the
- speakerrather amazing politics that I see in religion. And, you don't know the
- speakerless amazing by the way politics that we have in medicine.
- speakerYou know policy helped me in this. As I said, this man from George Washington said
- speakerI think that it's possible to build a medical school down there.
- speakerNow this is another fantastic idea, but stop and think. We need fifteen new medical schools in
- speakerthe next ten years. This has been definitely agreed to.
- speakerI don't know for sure whether there is a
- speakerper capita number per student required and so forth that it can
- speakerbe done, but this is almost ideal. I'd like to take these hospitals. I'd like to
- speakersee it arranged that a medical school be put down there. You know the thing that just passed Congress the other day seems
- speakerextremely fortuitous. Here's the money to do it. You're bringing in extra people, tremendous
- speakerresources and so forth into an area. I think, and Paul felt that you could
- speakerat least put a third and fourth year medical school down there. And, these are definitely in need in this country.
- speakerLook at the problems you would solve immediately. There would be bringing in
- speakerspecialized people and hence creating a lot of jobs. Number two you would be giving a
- speakermedical school for which the government has put aside I don't know how many hundred forty two million or something.
- speakerThirdly there would be no problem with such things as you can't have your office
- speakerin the hospital because all university hospitals have their offices there. This is accepted in
- speakerteaching. Fourthly if you want to hold a staff, just tell them they're going to become a
- speakerpart perhaps of a medical faculty. And this will hold them quicker than anything we can do.
- speakerAgain I don't think this ought to be repeated, but to me this seems to be the best problem.
- speakerI'm still sure we cannot take these over in the time allotted to us. [Heydinger concludes]
- speakerI think. I think Doctor
- speakerStewart [Stewart, Archibald K.] is connected with budget. It might be well to have him speak
- speakernext. I don't
- speakercare about the priorities. I just want to be heard.
- speakerWell, do you think it would be better
- speakerbefore? Whatever works.
- speakerWhich do you prefer?
- speakerMr Chairman there are just a few things I would like to say
- speakerAnd I think maybe it's better for you to speak next.
- speakerThe first is that in this whole process from the time this came to
- speakerour attention until today, there can be absolutely no
- speakerquestion as to the thoroughness with which the department, the
- speakerdivision has gone into this. Its integrity and the authority
- speakerby which it has acted. And, by the department, we mean of
- speakercourse, mainly Bob Barrie. At every crucial step,
- speakerhe has of course come for
- speakerconsultation and received
- speakerassurances or permission as the
- speakercase may be. I don't know of a more thorough job of
- speakerinvestigation anywhere any place than Mr
- speakerBarrie has given it and I can say the same thing for Mr. for Dr Heydinger.
- speakerThis has been pursued with the greatest of thorough, the greatest of thoroughness
- speakerand with permission and authority. As each step
- speakerhas been taken. The fee for the consultant
- speakeris to be paid by the Board. Therefore the consultant is
- speakernot under obligation in any sense to the United Mine Workers or to the
- speakerstate of Kentucky. This is, I think,
- speakeran objective appraisal, and the
- speakerconsultant is under obligation to no one. His
- speakerfee is paid by the Board. The budget of course is a very
- speakerserious consideration. There's a figure of seventy five thousand mentioned.
- speakerI have talked at length with Bob [Bob Barrie] on this
- speakerparticular item. There are probably items in his present but
- speakerbudget which will have to go. Work may have to be
- speakersacrificed. This is a matter of priority
- speakerof the relative importance. This is the thing we're attempting to do across the
- speakerchurch in evaluation. And, this to him and to the
- speakerdivision, with the possible exception of Dr Heydinger, is a
- speakertop priority. And so that while
- speakerthere will be, of course, some additional budget money needed, there
- speakeris a thorough examination of the present budget of the division and
- speakerthe use of some of that money in this proposed seventy five
- speakerthousand dollars that is mentioned. The
- speakerbudget of course is always a serious consideration.
- speakerNobody knows that better than I do.
- speakerPersonally, I am in favor of this. I've
- speakerbeen in it from the beginning. We thought the doors would
- speakerclose so the decision would not have to be made. That the contribution this
- speakerBoard would make would be to get this thing on the road, perhaps in the hands of
- speakersomebody else, to keep these hospitals open.
- speakerThe task is difficult.
- speakerExtremely difficult. All these things the doctor [Heydinger, David K.] has mentioned
- speakerare valid, I think. And yet I think that it can
- speakerbe done. I personally have great confidence in our, in Mr Barrie
- speakerand in his committee. And, I think this Board can
- speakerbe the channel through which this operation can
- speakerbe kept open.
- speakerThank you, Mr. Chairman.
- speakerAnd now, Mr. Rogers. [Rogers, Lon B.] is he here?
- speakerOh
- speaker[Rogers] Mr President, members of the Board, my friends.
- speakerA good many of you have asked me how I felt about this matter.
- speakerI live in Pikeville Kentucky. Is the map I'm still on
- speakerthe board there?
- speakerThey took it down, I guess.
- speakerThis has been a difficult matter for me too, Dr Heydinger.
- speakerThat's on. Tony
- speakerMy people and I come from Kentucky
- speakerstock from way back. My great great grandfather
- speakerleft Virginia.
- speakerFloated down the Ohio River to the Falls of the Ohio.
- speakernow, Louisville.
- speakerHe was an itinerant Baptist preacher.
- speakerHe staked out in the year seventeen seventy five a claim of a thousand acres of land
- speakerin Nelson County Kentucky,
- speakernear Bardstown. He
- speakerwas the first one of the first justices of the peace in
- speakerNelson County Kentucky. I've seen the records. He
- speakerpreached and organized churches there. From
- speakerthere my great grandfather went to Ohio County, Kentucky. That's down in western
- speakerKentucky. He
- speakerhad a poor farm, and he did the best he could.
- speakerHe was the sixth child in his
- speakerfamily. My grandfather was the tenth child in a
- speakerlarge family. He died when my father was
- speakerfour and a half years old.
- speakerA poor farm, thin land, and all he could do was raise a little tobacco.
- speakerMy father [Roger, Alphonso "Fon" ]
- speakerhad nothing to do. He educated himself such as he could.
- speakerHe became a teacher.
- speakerThat was about all there was to do in those days. Then he
- speakerbecame county school superintendent, to which he was elected. He served for four years as
- speakerSuperintendent of Schools in Ohio County, Kentucky, of which Hartford is a county seat.
- speakerThen he ran for county judge. He was defeated.
- speakerHe then had a wife and two children. And, he had to
- speakerfind a way to make a living. So he got into the he
- speakerdecided well.
- speakerHe'd organize a bank and needed banks so he organized a bank. Greensburg Kentucky. He
- speakerhad to leave Ohio County. So he organized a bank in Greensburg
- speakerKentucky. Got it going pretty good, they came in one day and said Mr Rogers
- speakerso we'll let you sell your stock.
- speakerThey only had ten shares of stock the bare minimum he got that for organizing the bank.
- speakerSo he went to Cincinnati and discussed with a good friend of his that he had come to know in that
- speakerbrief time, who was with the Fifth-Third Union Trust Company.
- speakerHe said, Mr Rogers, I believe is a good place and opportunity for a new bank in
- speakerPikeville Kentucky.
- speakerSo I don't guess you ever heard of it? It's just a little mountain town up in the head of the Big
- speakerSandy River. One hundred ten miles due south of
- speakerAshland-Huntington area. Said, I believe there's an opportunity
- speakerthere for a bank. So in nineteen three, my father went
- speakerthere, first rode horseback over the mountains. Having organized three other
- speakerState banks in Hindman, Kentucky, by Hazard
- speakerand Manchester.
- speakerThe one at Hindman still operates. He still had nothing. Went to Pikeville,
- speakerwith, I think with five hundred dollars.
- speakerThen in nineteen seven, after he had organized this bank, there was a depression. The year nineteen five the C.
- speakerand O. Railroad built a branch line into Pikeville, Pike County. Thus,
- speakeropened the coal field which John L. Lewis tried to keep from being open.
- speakerThe. Dad knew nothing about coal business. Neither did his brothers, but in after
- speakerinflammatory rheumatism, and after he died in nineteen ten,
- speakerafter after nineteen ten, after he had inflammatory rheumatism, he brought into two brothers. So they organized a
- speakerlittle company, Rogers Brothers Coal Company. And they operated a
- speakerlittle mine there for a time until nineteen sixteen on borrowed money
- speakercause they didn't have any.
- speakerMy father was a man who
- speakerbelieved in serving his community.
- speakerAfter his health failed we moved to Lexington. He was
- speakerone of the first promoters and chief lobbyist on behalf of
- speakerthe first bill to create the Kentucky cripple children's Commission
- speakerin nineteen twenty four in the state of Kentucky. He had some friends he had made through the years
- speakerin political circles, and he worked through them.
- speakerIn nineteen twenty one, Dad felt his health was failing, so he moved
- speakermy family to Lexington.
- speakerNow in the Bluegrass. My mother still lives there.
- speakerShe is eighty seven.
- speakerThere I became a member of the First Baptist Church. I had been a member of
- speakerthe First Baptist Church in Pikeville, which my father and mother were charter members of and helped organize.
- speakerThey had a Baptist preacher down there who did not believe that such a
- speaker[Rogers continutes speaking] thing as card playing in the works. Didn't think anybody ought to dance, and nobody else ought to.
- speakerThis fellow had been a professor of Bible and Greek at
- speakerGeorgetown College, Kentucky, a Baptist institution. So
- speakeryou wouldn't believe this, but it happened. And, you can verify it, but he literally
- speakerwithdrew the right hand of fellowship from fifteen hundred people over a period of
- speakertwo or three years. The right hand of fellowship was withdrawn from us.
- speakerWe went to another Baptist church. I was never very happy after that.
- speakerI just began attending the Second
- speakerPresbyterian church in Lexington. Dr Jesse Herrmann, who was for
- speakermany years of our great Presbyterian on the General Council of our church.
- speakerPhi Beta Kappa. Did some wonderful
- speakerpreaching there, a great church. So, when I went back to
- speakerPikeville to make my home after I married
- speakerbecause I had interests there. I'm a lawyer by profession, but I do not practice
- speakergenerally. I am an estate trustee. I try to
- speakermanage the affairs for my family. I have three sisters, my mother. I'm the only boy.
- speakerMy father felt that it was better that I be
- speakertrained, if it be my will to be a lawyer and manage his estate, look after his
- speakerfamily and be a useful citizen than anything else I could do, This I have tried to be.
- speakerI did not seek membership on this Board. I
- speakerBob Skinner has an assistant
- speakerin his Church, Lane Rankin, who was my
- speakerPastor, under whom I became a ruling elder
- speakerI did not think I was worthy then. I did not think I was worthy of
- speakermembership on this Board. Some of the greatest minds in the Presbyterian church, some of the finest people
- speakerI know in this land, are members of this Board. And, I appreciate very highly the very high honor
- speakerthat my presbytery bestowed on me in nominating me for this board.
- speakerI did not come to the matter at hand. I did not. When I first heard
- speakerof this Miners Hospital thing, I said this thing is crazy. It can't be.
- speakerWhen did they hear of it? I heard of them in January seventh. Meryl Ruoss was down in the Synod of Kentucky
- speakerconducting a church planning session seminar, the first one we ever
- speakerhad in the Synod of Kentucky.
- speakerWhen I heard of this thing, he just dropped it in the two day session we had there,
- speaker. I said, "Well, the Synod of Kentucky hasn't been consulted about this."
- speaker"Well," he said, "We wrote Gordon Corbett." Gordon's here, aren't you, Gordon?
- speakerYeah, here you are. And well I said
- speakerI'm a member of the Presbyterian National Missions Committee. I'm a member of the Synod's National Missions Committee.
- speakerAnd I want to be doggone sure that the channels of the church are not being bypassed.
- speakerThis is not going to be
- speakersomething dictated from New York. The wise men may all be in the east, but now
- speakerwe want to see the cards. And so.
- speakerThat was the first briefing.
- speakerThis is a difficult decision for me. The man who made this proposal to the who who
- speakercaused this challenge to come to this board to this church,
- speakerS. McMaster Kerr, [Pastor, Harlan Presbyterian Church] is a man who'd been kicked out of several pulpits over the country.
- speakerHe was installed in by the Presbytery of Ebenezer
- speakerof your church
- speakerover the unanimous protest and objection of every member of the Ministerial
- speakerRelations Committee. My pastor was chairman of it, one of my best friends, a
- speakerruling elder, a past President of the State Chamber of Commerce of Kentucky, was on it.
- speakerThis was a situation. Yet this is the man. I didn't bring this to your attention. I didn't seek it.
- speakerI didn't think it was possible. And it may not be. Only God
- speakerknows whether all things be possible or not. If your god is too small to
- speakerbelieve that he can do these things. I don't think you're very much of a Christian. I don't think I am.
- speakerNow.
- speakerI said first place. And I told Arch [Stewart, Archibald K.] as soon as I heard about this thing, I say, Well Arch, I was up here for
- speakereducation meeting January eighteenth. I said I want to talk to you and Bob Barrie when I come up,
- speakerso they said well here's the situation. Here is the
- speakerdeadline. The union has set it. We didn't set it, my friends.
- speakerWe didn't ask the Union to come in here and build these hospitals. They were not
- speakerbuilt with union funds. Where did that money come from? It came from the coal operators.
- speakerThey extorted first five cents a ton, then forty cents a ton
- speakerfrom the coal operators under threat that they would dynamite their properties. And, believe me, my friends that's
- speakerwhat they or their minions do. Now they don't claim any responsibility for these acts,
- speakerbut they have burned temples, destroyed homes. Their people
- speaker[Rogers continues speaking].
- speakerAnd, it's been a state of anarchy since last September down there, and it's
- speakerit's a serious problem. One of the trustees of Pikeville College is one of the
- speakerfinest leaders in all eastern Kentucky. B. F. Reed. He was
- speakerformerly a Lutheran in Pennsylvania. He and his brothers came down there and opened up a bunch of
- speakersmall coal mines. He has had a contract with the United Mine Workers of America ever since
- speakerhe since they organized eastern Kentucky. They dynamited his home
- speakertwice, my friends, twice. They disclaim any
- speakerresponsibility. Oh, no. They're not that. The union got nothing to do that. You know good and well
- speakerthey'd respond in damages in the terms of hundreds of thousands of dollars of this thing prevailed.
- speakerWe did not ask for these hospitals. They came in there and built them.
- speakerBut you know it's.
- speakerIt's kind of ironical. One of the.
- speakerOne of the elders in my church, our church,
- speakerDr Warren Proudfoot, is the son of a West Virginia coal miner.
- speakerHe worked his way through college in some way through Harvard Medical School.
- speakerHe did some work out among the Indians out in the southwest.
- speakerAnd, he was recruited for the Miners Hospital staff in Pikeville.
- speakerI didn't know him them. Till he came there, till he came to our church.
- speakerWarren Proudfoot is one of the finest Christian doctors you'll find anywhere
- speakerNow. My friends, there's a Methodist Hospital there, of which I expressed
- speakersome concern yesterday. But if you happen to be driving along the highways of Big Sandy
- speakerValley, and you have an accident after five o'clock at night,
- speakerand unless you know a good doctor, and you can reach him, you
- speakerwon't get medical service, Dr Heydinger, at the Pikeville Methodist
- speakerHospital. The state patrol of Kentucky is under orders to
- speakertake the people, who are involved in automobile accidents, who have no known doctor,
- speakerthey're under instructions to take them to the Miners Hospital, because there is always a doctor on
- speakercall there.
- speakerAnd Dr Warren Proudfoot is one of the finest surgeons in eastern Kentucky.
- speakerNow isn't that ironical. Talk about the Hippocratic Oath. My brother in law now
- speakerdeceased was a doctor. He worked for the cripple children's commission for
- speakertwenty odd years. He took his oath seriously. He would go
- speakerday or night. And, he made a success of the medical profession in every way,
- speakerboth from a standpoint of service and from the standpoint of money.
- speakerI say we've got to do some things in faith. Now I say, I though this. I thought the doors were all
- speakerclosed. I thought it was crazy. I said if the United Mine Workers with all
- speakerof the coal operators money. Not their money. They extracted
- speakerthat from us and put it in a trust fund. They built these hospitals. We didn't ask
- speakerfor them. Of course there were no hospitals there, but they built them. And
- speakernow they are turning their back on eastern Kentucky. They're turning their
- speakerbacks upon these coal miners that dug out the coal
- speakerand made possible this trust fund. Here's an editorial from the
- speakerLouisville Courier Journal, our largest paper, a Democratic paper, mind you, and I'm a Republican.
- speakerNovember the twenty ninth the U. M.W. deserts its members and the
- speakerindustry. I've got a lot of them. I've sent a lot of these folks
- speakerNow.
- speakerIf they you know if the United Mine Workers can't afford them, the state of Kentucky can't afford them,
- speakerhow in the world can the Presbyterian Church afford them? I was
- speakeropposed to this plan until I came here to do this to this meeting.
- speakerI didn't think it was possible.
- speakerI didn't think John F. Kennedy, who has not done anything except throw more coal miners out of
- speakerbusiness in West Virginia by allowing more residual oil to come into the United States
- speakerfrom foreign countries. I didn't think John F. Kennedy and I didn't vote for him. I didn't
- speakerthink he would do anything for West Virginia or eastern Kentucky.
- speakerFrankly sincerely I believe this. But he gave
- speakerorders, and they came down the line with a commitment to provide the capital funds for these
- speakerhospitals. No Presbyterian money. You are not asked to put up a dollar of your capital money
- speakerfor this area. Then Dr
- speakerRosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.] said at Lexington at the consultation. He figured to be a four
- speakerhundred thousand dollar deficit, that was based on a seven percent rate of a bad
- speakerdebts.
- speakerWell, they persuaded him that Dr Willard [Willard, William R. ], the dean of the University of Kentucky Medical School. And, by the way,
- speakerDr Heydinger, let's be factual. That medical school did not cost one hundred forty two million
- speakerdollars. It cost forty two million dollars, twenty four million dollars.
- speaker[Rogers continues] The state of Kentucky is not a rich state. It's a comparatively poor state.
- speakerBut I think you surely it must have been impressed with
- speakerwith our governor [Combs, Bert T. ] yesterday. I didn't ask him to come here. Didn't even know he was coming till I got here.
- speakerI never dreamed he would come here because he tried to work this out on his own, and he failed.
- speakerHappy Chandler, who wants to be governor again, who has been
- speakerrunning for governor for four years, who who has been
- speakerDoing everything you could do to wipe east Kentucky off the map. After the fifty seven flood, he said move on
- speakerout east Kentucky.
- speakerBert Combs, a mountain man has built or is building the most modern highway system
- speakerthat Kentucky has ever had. We have voted one hundred and ninety million dollars for
- speakerhighways' bonds. A first mortgage on our homes in Kentucky to build
- speakerhighways to match federal money. We have. He has built is
- speakerbuilding through bonds financed through New York financiers a
- speakerEast Kentucky turnpike to run from eventually from
- speakerSaliersville to Princeton Kentucky with freeways to Pikeville. So by this time next year,
- speakermy friends, you can travel on a modern highway from Prestonsburg Kentucky to Kentucky
- speakerLake way down in western Kentucky some four hundred odd miles. He
- speakerhas been our governor. I voted for him. I'm a Republican. I never voted
- speakerfor a Democratic governor before in my life. I voted for him because of his program.
- speakerAnd, the Kentucky State Chamber of Commerce, of which I am a regional vice president and have been
- speakerfor three years and a director. The Kentucky Chamber of Commerce
- speakerhas supported him in most of his legislation. We have not supported him in some things
- speakernaturally. We think he is a little bit.
- speakerWe think he's a little biased toward labor, you know. And, we've had this
- speakeranarchy. And he hasn't done exactly what we thought he should have
- speakerdone about that.
- speakerBut, my friends, there is an old poem by Judge Mulligan in Kentucky, who says politics is the damnedest in Kentucky
- speakerand it is. I guess it is.
- speakerBut this governor [Combs, Bert T.] appointed me, after he was elected, to a membership on the Breaks Interstate
- speakerPark Commission. I don't draw a dime. I don't. I don't draw a dime
- speakeron mileage. I gave over fifty percent of my time for the last two years to develop
- speakerwhere this Breaks InterstatePark. Kentucky and Virginia working cooperatively.
- speakerSomething we've dreamed of for a long time. I think there's a future for eastern
- speakerKentucky. Of course, we've lost a lot of people. And there's a lot to be done.
- speakerAnd the Ford Foundation survey said that the Southern Appalachian area,
- speakereight states, one hundred ninety counties, is the most depressed area in the United
- speakerStates. I'm not proud of this. I'm sorry for it. But I live there and I want to do something about it.
- speakerIf it is the most depressed area in the United States, and this Board
- speakerhas adopted it as a major policy of concern.
- speakerWhat.