Board of National Missions miners hospitals discussions, April 1963, tape 7.

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[Rogers, Lon B.] Now the Ford Foundation survey
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said that the Southern Appalachian area eight states one hundred ninety candidates
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is the most depressed area in the United States I'm not proud of this. I'm
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sorry for it but I live there and I want to do something about it. If it is the
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most depressed area in the United States, and this Board has adopted it as a major policy of
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concern, what do what can we say to people in other parts of the
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world if we can't resolve some of these problems in southern Appalachia?
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If this is the most depressed region, and we can't solve our own problems, why are we going to
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Africa and other parts of the world trying to solve some of their problems?
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I say let's try to do this. Now what are you being asked to do? Not to build
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hospitals.
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You're not being asked for a blank check. You're being asked only to be the
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vehicle, the corporate vehicle, through which these
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hospitals can pass from the union hands which
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has turned its backs on these people. And when, if they close, and if we don't take them,
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then a lot of these people are going to be without hospitalization. I can tell you. I live there. I've been
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over every in every county in eastern Kentucky, not once but many times.
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Dr Rosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.] has brought out a play in which the dean of the U.K. Medical School [Willard, William R.] says it's
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fine. I believe that the governor of
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Kentucky [Combs, Bert T.] will do what he says he will. If he doesn't, you are not
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bound. You got an out. He said I will, I will
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recommend to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Kentucky soon as we get this primary out of the way.
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And he's got a man that he's trying to nominate to succeed him, who will carry out his policies.
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And, I pray that he will get the nomination. Ed Breathitt. He says
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he said I will recommend to the General Assembly, of course as he said, it's a
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Democratic General Assembly for the most part. Another irony is that one of the
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Republican senators is from Harlan County. He also called this to the attention of the
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Board. Nick Johnson [Johnson, H. Nick], he's quite a character. He's been thrown in
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jail for doing a lot of things he oughtn't be. And, he's tried to threaten to sue the state. Isn't it
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wonderful how the Lord does, works his wonderful works
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through people. Sometimes we think they are the very devil themselves. And, I guess,
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sometimes they think I am. Nobody asked
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me up here how I stood about this thing until I met Ken [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] on the hall the first day I came.
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I said, "Ken, as of now, I'm opposed to it."
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What changed me?
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I got in a conference with Bill Hudnut [Hudnut, William H., Jr.] and my Synod Executive, Corbett [Corbett, Gordon Leroy] back here the other
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afternoon for two hours. And, Gordon told me what had happened. I didn't know. This
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deadline the Union has imposed, I think is criminal, but they have
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imposed it. They've set it up. Now,
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this is the time limit was it was impossible, but we have to live with it.
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Corbett [Corbett, Gordon Leroy] said, "We've got the money for the promise by candidate. If he doesn't deliver.
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You've got no obligation. The governor of Kentucky doesn't deliver. You've got no obligation."
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But, you've got to do some things in faith, my friends, and if the Christian
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religion doesn't teach failure, it doesn't teach anything. And God works only
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through people, Time up?
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Well, my heart's in this
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in this thing, people. I believe that that it is in the interest
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of eastern Kentucky. I believe it's in the interest of the United States
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to provide hospitalisation for these people. I believe that if this Board does
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not act as the vehicle through which this transfer of hospitals from Union to private
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ownership can be affected, these people, two hundred and
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seventy eight thousand people in eleven counties of eastern Kentucky, will
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be bereft of adequate medical services.
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You can't always go, Doctor,[Heydinger, David K.] to the University of Kentucky Medical Center for an
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appendectomy if you have an emergency. That's the way it used to be, and people would die on the way.
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There's terrific need, my friends. And, if if we're not going to be the
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Levite and walk on the other side of the street, we can't afford not to face up to some of these
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problems. I grant you the right expression of your
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will, but I pray that it may be God's will,
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that we be the vehicle through which hospitalization is maintained
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in a very needed area of eastern Kentucky and southern Appalachia. Thank you
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for your time. [Rogers concludes]
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[Barrie, Bob] I think we should
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immediately ask Dr. Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] if he will speak to [Neigh] I don't know if anybody wants to hear me.
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This case. Beg pardon? Where you stand
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right. Where I stand? Mindful, speak your mind loud and clear
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Yeah we're all of us have, from one time or another,said
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we had hoped that the doors would be closed, at one time or the other.
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One of my friends last night said to me, don't feel too badly if
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the door is closed today. The door is closed today.
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I think I can state my position probably in one sentence. That door is
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closed today. It has been closed on my conscience.
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Now, all, all this seems to be general agreement
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here on the surface that the financial aspects of this thing
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can be cared for. It centers around the
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impossibility of doing it. I say on the surface.
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It appears that the questions
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concerning the financial aspects have been answered. And, that there is
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an agreement. By this, I do not mean there is an agreement
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with the way in which the financial aspects of the thing are going to be solved.
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And this is a matter of philosophy, personal philosophy,
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which one has to measure against his idea of God and service.
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And, it is exactly point, where I've been forced to
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measure myself. I agree
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completely with Dave Heydinger in terms of the impossibility of this thing.
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Perhaps it doesn't frighten me as much as it does others because somehow
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or other, I've been jousting with impossibility all my life.
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Keith [Conning, John Keith G.] and I went to Detroit at the same time.
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Keith had the most of the ramshackle beat up old place you ever saw.
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No people. A community that was torn by the worst kind of strife that you can
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imagine. I wouldn't have given a nickel for his chances there. And,
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he did it. Last week I was out for the groundbreaking
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Groundbreaking of a church in Dearborn. I'd happened to be there
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five years before when Jack Mitchell [Mitchell, John K.] proposed the
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million and a half building program. It was a real hot one.
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Jack and I've talked about it, I said Jack you don't have a chance.
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A chance to do that. Yet, last week
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the ground was broken for that church. The Board of National Missions did its best
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as always jousting with impossibility. And, that is what we're up against
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today. Another thing I think you ought to know
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the whole
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Obviously I'm not an honest doctor.
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I am. I am an administrator. I hope.
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and I think I would like to recite just a bit of a history of
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this thing in the last two weeks that implement
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my belief and accomplishing the impossible.
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On April the twelfth,
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according to my figures, that's about two weeks ago.
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We had an appointment with
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the officers of the Fund.
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It was an interesting meeting. I come from the coal
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country, too, Lon [Rogers, Lon B.] , over in Ohio.
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My roommate in college was a miner, oh operated. His father operated
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mines in western Kentucky and eastern Ohio. My other roommate
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was the president of one of the divisions of the miners' union. So I
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am not new to this task at that point.
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But, I was surprised with the people we've met and I
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think they were surprised with us. The only difference between Allan
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Locke [Locke, D. Allan] [Treasurer, Board of National Missions] and the Comptroller of this fund is that they go to different beauty parlors.
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They look upon. They look upon. Then they look upon their responsibilities
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in exactly the same fashion. This, of course,
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has to do with made deadlines andwith negotiation. The thing I pointed to
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is the fact that, I think, Lon [Rogers, Lon B.]
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the things that you were saying about the miners' unions [United Mine Workers] are
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a matter of history and a matter of questions still. With people of
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we're dealing with me in the Fund are people who have administered the
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Fund who, like the Board of National Missions, have the responsibility to it.
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And, I think they're, I think they're. They are the kind of
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people that our finance committee is. They
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are the kind of people that want to get the job done. I was impressed with
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Miss Roche. [Roche, Josephine A.] She was called an octogenarian. I hope
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I'm as good intellectually at fifty-five as she is at eighty, believe me.
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That was two weeks ago.
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Bob Barrie wasn't even there. Came out of the
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meeting. We divided responsibility. We said that,
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"Gordon," [Corbett, Gordon Leroy] and Gordon agreed, "You've got two weeks to deliver
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deliver the governor of Kentucky."
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Gordon, the governor of Kentucky and a promise was delivered here yesterday.
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Bob [Barrie, Bob] and I decided that we had two weeks
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to deliver a firm commitment to you, through
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all of the governmental red tape that you can imagine is possible in Washington.
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You had that commitment here. One of the interesting things
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and an interesting sidelight about this. I've heard at one point in the
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negotiations, where neither Bob [Barrie] nor I were in attendance. Gordon [Corbett, Gordon Leroy]
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was invited to Washington with some of the governor's [Combs, Bert T.] staff.
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They rather looked upon him as a
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politician, since professional people frequently do look
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upon laymen as basically those laymen are preacher.
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They had a meeting. Gordon sort of got the cold shoulder.
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The next day, there was an entire change.
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The governor said to him. What's about this
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United Presbyterian Church that it can do so many things
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so fast in this town of Washington?
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Now. I don't know what it is about really, respect.
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Except this. That the United Presbyterian Church has an image.
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The United Presbyterian Church has a duty.
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And, it has. If we hopefully believe to have mobility.
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Now the point of the dissertation is this.
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This is by way of saying that we are
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administrators around here in my hope. It's by way
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of saying that you have the documented evidence that, under a
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difficult situation, it can be. It can be produced.
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And, it is in that that I have my hope.
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And I have my conviction this can be done. And let's not fool
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ourselves. If we don't agree with this thing, let's not
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hide behind false issues of time and other things.
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Let's get it on the table and talk about the issue.
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I and measure them against our responsibilities in this area.
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Now, there is
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one other thing. I presented to you yesterday
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evidences from the American Medical Association that we that they are that
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we will they will cooperate. Before we left Washington for
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the first or second time, we had talked to the American Medical
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Association and had assurance from the people who lobby in Washington that there
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would be no problem. Is this is not right, Bob?
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No problem, with the United Presbyterian Church doing
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this.
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I think I would like to report to you something that you should have already known.
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And, that is that the chairman of the Finance Committee, who is
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not able to be here, is in favor of this program.
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He's in favor of it because he believes that the United Presbyterian Church and the
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Board of National Missions needs to be mobile. It needs to be
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mobile. And, what we're involved in, at this point,
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is a discussion, of course, of philosophy.
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It's a discussion of finance. It's a discussion of the image
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of the United Presbyterian Church and, if you'll forgive me, the
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Protestant Church. Now we were talking about. Ralph [Smith, Ralph T.] [Youngstown, Ohio] raised the
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question of seventy five thousand dollars. This
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little church where I go, has a hundred
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fifty thousand dollars in Ohio in our family bank that
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it does nothing under the sun with. It enables my mother to
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contribute only a hundred dollars a year to that church.
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Now the thing that Dick was talking about yesterday and the image that have, it is not
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of National Missions alone. It is that the Protestant church and the
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Presbyterian Church is a fat cat church. That is unwilling to
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move out into these areas. We're not talking about the Board of National Missions
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particularly in this thing. At stake is the image
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of the United, of the United Presbyterian Church. Now,
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basically we
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have to deal with the thing that we were created for.
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That is our share in the mission of the church.
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There's been a great deal of
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discussion within executive session about
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policies. You know that this action can be take you
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under policies that are already approved by this board.
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Last year at this time, I made a statement which was.
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Well, I thought, was enthusiastically received. You never can tell when people
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ask for things to be printed, just what that means.
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But, here's what it said.
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I trust that it is conviction
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and not fetish that prompts me to express
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an emphatic concern vver a developing
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philosophy, which says that the church should get out of health and welfare.
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This, I believe, is philosophically untenable and
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theologically unsound. I do not believe with some
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that the only function of the church in the field of health and welfare
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is to provide plus service. I do
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believe. I do not believe that it is the function of religion to
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support the institution. I do believe
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that it is the reason for the being polity institute.
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I do believe that those say that the church should supply
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only plus services fall into exactly the same trap as the John
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Birch Society. It implies that really now the function of a
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society, the function of religion, is to support the good society.
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And this I submit again to you. After you had
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approved it once. That these heresies. And of the best way to
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deal with heresy is to stamp it out with action. This
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action is a part of the responsibility of the Board of National Missions
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as we deal with people. One of the things that no one has
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talked about until Lon Rogers got up this morning, was people.
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And, this is why we were in business.
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I've got two telegrams here. This sounds
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like Charlie Leavitt, doesn't it?
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The Presbyterians of Letcher County, Kentucky have been
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gratified by the genuine concern of the church for the
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continued operation of the Miners Memorial Hospitals
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now threatened with closure. And our prayers are with you as
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you meet and seek to implement this concern and
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be assured of our support. Hayward, Sandlick, Graham,
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Isom, Gorman and
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and Blakey Presbyterian Churches in Kentucky.
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I have another one, in which the entire membership is listed.
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And it sounds like the membership and it sounds like the list of a Scottish kirk.
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People who have been lost in the back wash of society for many years.
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To summarize, I believe that
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we need to do this. I believe
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that, Dr. Heydinger, [Heydinger, David K.] that the question of the financing
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have been answered in fact and the question
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of philosophy has to be judged against ones convictions.
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I believe that we can do the impossible
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because we've always done the impossible. And
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I believe that the evidence is that it can be done.
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Thank you, Dr. very much.
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It.
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Mr. Chairman, may we hear Dr. Rosenfeld [Rosenfeld, Eugene D.]?
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[Barrie, Bob]No. May I say?
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in answer to that, in my humble opinion,
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we have heard enough professionals.
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I would like to give one more
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nonprofessional an opportunity to speak. Mr. Chairman. I do not want to make a statement,
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I'd like to have the microphone to make a motion. All right.
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I do want to make a speech, but
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OK. You've got to get a second. Well, make your speech now. We need to get the mic on.
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Mr Chairman. The thing
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that impresses me on this, and I had a terrible time sitting very quietly all
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this period of time, is you recognize, well recognize. The thing that
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impresses me about this, is exactly what Ken [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] has been talking about
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with this added item. That yesterday morning, most of
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you were exposed for the first time to some of the facts of life concerning the church.
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And, almost all of you said that what we have to do is
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find the best leadership that we can find and really begin to go to work in terms of the
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Presbyterian Church.
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And I want to be I said we've got the best leadership in the Presbyterian Church. You said
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you wanted to be led. You have been.
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You have a group of men who are highly qualified, with whom I have some
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pride of association from the Board standpoint, who have
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worked exhausting. And, they were presented the best documented thing that has ever come to
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the Board since I've been related to it. And now, at
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least, there seems to be a question as to whether or not we are going to honor of the leadership that
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we have said we wanted.
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And that we had to have. The Presbyterian Church had to have. And, I think it's
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about time the Board of National Missions fish or cut bait on this business of leadership.
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And, I think it's about time we said to the General Secretary [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] that when we elected him General Secretary, we intended him to
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be that. And, to say it so clearly that every member of the Board staff will
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understand it. And, I think one of the ways we do it is by
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supporting them when they come up with something that needs to be done on behalf of people.
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Sure it's impossible. But the Board of National Missions has never
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yet stopped because a thing was impossible. And, Mr Chairman, I would move you, sir, that
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we approve these resolutions and that we commit them to the hands of the
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proper officers of the Board.
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All right. Doctor? Speaking?
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In regard to the motion I would like simply
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to raise one of the rather central questions. Ken [Neigh] raised the question, but didn't answer it, I believe,
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about the, assuming that we do,
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get involved in these five hospitals. What is the
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relationship with the rest of our program in this area? This is
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the essential question, the matter of salaries, for example. I understand the
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salaries the doctors in hospitals run in the neighborhood of twenty five thirty dollars dollars
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That sort of thing. Now, what happens to the rest of our salary structure throughout the
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rest of our Health, Education and Welfare services?
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That is the question. I won't be able to stay to hear all the answer. I have got a wedding coming up tonight, and I'd like to hear.
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Dr. Barrie, I imagine, can answer it. I am sure I can't.
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It's.
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[Barrie, Bob] Mr. Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen. I think one of the things in which our
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presentation yesterday was not sufficiently explicit and clear
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was made much more clear in what has already been said this
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morning. And that is that the role of the Board of National Missions and the
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action which has been proposed you authorize, is very much in the
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nature of an intermediary. You have heard it described this morning that our role
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is to make it possible for these ten hospitals, initially only a
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portion of them, to be transferred from their present ownership and operation
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to a new ownership and operation, under which they will become essentially community
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hospitals. It is not proposed that these hospitals become,
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in any sense of the word, mission hospitals in the sense that Embudo Hospital or Ganado
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hospital are. So that, as I see it,
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the problem of comparing salary scales in these hospitals,
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with those at Embudo and Ganado is not a pertinent issue to the question before us
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any more than it is a pertinent question to compare the salaries of
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Presbyterian Hospital in Denver or New York City or San Francisco with the
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salaries that Jane Cook or Jubilee or Ganado or any of our other mission stations.
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May I express that doctor.
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Right. The question has been called for.
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Mr. Chairman. Yes. I have put my heart and my mind on this thing. Perhaps I should say my
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financial training. I think that, however, as a member of the Finance Committee,
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I ought to point out that, in my belief,
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this figure of seventy-five thousand dollars here
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is not necessarily the limit of our financial
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responsibilities. We can be, we can be better be a deficit here
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that's of indeterminate
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proportions. That is all I have to say.
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Mr. Chairman. Yes. The same way Kenny spoke. he says he is for it, and I do not
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doubt it. But, I can say that we had a small meeting of the finance committee and
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that the men there expressed their very grave concern,
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not that the philosophy, but their very grave concern about
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the finances. That is the judgment
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of those I think I speak and I do not speak for those that were there.
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Don't misunderstand me. Not the philosophy, but the running of the thing.
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Any man here, who has served on a hospital board, and there are several of us that have,
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know that there is always a deficit. I would like to think that the United Mine Workers
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in the state of Kentucky would take up the deficit. I have great fears. Yes, Mrs. Salsbury. [Mrs. J. Russel Salsbury]
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Mr. Chairman, I would just like to
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recall to our minds of our concern in the whole area to the study that has just
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come to us and been approved and that
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we're in the process of implementing. Through the division of work through the synods and the presbyteries
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the Radio and Television Department. To the millions, to the many facets of the
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church, we are beginning to implement our concerns with that area. And,
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now, this channel open, this opportunity open for us to be a channel
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to greater things to happen. It seems to me that in this revolution,
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on which we are voting, that we are safeguarded on. I feel perfectly satisfied
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that we are safeguarded on every angle of our
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operation. I did. I disagree with Mr.
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Wimberly [Wimberly, John W. ] on the fact. On the emphasis we seem to be in agreement with that our
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decision should be on whether or not we agree with the General Secretary [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn]. I feel compelled to say that
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because I don't think he meant it that way. We are here to decide a question of deep concern
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in which we are already involved and in which we are already
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implementing action. This is another open door. And, I just wanted to say that I
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certainly heartily favor it.
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I think the question has been
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asked for. And, I have permitted another two or three people to talk already, so I
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feel that perhaps we.
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Marie? I hate to do this because I think we ought to vote.
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Mr. Chairman, we should vote on this.
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and the question.
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[Marsh, Clinton [Clinton McClurkin] ] Mr Chairman. I must express this concern.
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I like what has been said about the Presbyterians' interest in
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people. And that cost, we must have money to do it.
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but I am acquainted with other
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hospitals that are Presbyterian hospitals.
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And, most of them to this date, we.
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No matter what our concern is in the presbytery, we can't do anything about
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it. And, I am just concerned that, if we do this, and I think we ought to.
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And, I am for it, that somehow a safeguard be made so that we can have
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something as Presbyterians to say what is happening where
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the people are concerned. There is no use saying you are doing this for people,
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and we turn over and have a hospital in which we have little or
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nothing to say about how we reach people or what happens there. I will am aquainted
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with Philadelphia and Chicago and, as a presbytery
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and as a Presbyterian, we can do nothing really
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about what happens for people in these particular hospitals. Now, I believe,
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recalling mention of this yesterday. And, it is my hope that this kind of a
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safeguard can be written into whatever happens to us here.
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Succeeding question. That
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we have
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insisted upon this safeguard all along. I think the best way to put it, and
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you'll have to put it in a theological way. Go along. We envision these hospitals
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to be between the mission hospitals and the
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church-related hospitals. Thank you, doctor. Mrs. DeLong. [DeLong, Mrs. A. Herbert] [Glens Falls, New York] Now, after Mrs.
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DeLong, I must call for the vote. It was to
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this point I was thinking that. i might be wrong,
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but I took it as individuals' impressions
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that they were ready to vote. It was not put in the form of a motion. This is a serious matter.
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and I would feel that we might limit
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the length of time a person might speak, but if
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we, as a group, wish the question to be called, we must put it in the form of a motion.
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Move the question.
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So the question.
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Second it. All in favor will say "aye." Contrary.
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All right. We are ready to vote on the motion. Now
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all in favor of the motion will say "aye." Contrary
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The motion is carried.
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The motion is carried.
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I think that now we come to the time of the
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report on the Division of Education.
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The Division of Education.
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If you.