Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 1.

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    That if you're willing. Well what are you . How are you going to do this? What I want to do.
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    We have kind of a continuum on this thing, you
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    know, from the initial recognition of the
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    problem. And then there's a process that goes on in
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    the church where people get more and
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    more concerned. More people get concerned
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    and generally some official body becomes
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    involved. All right. And, in that period there are some people who are key in getting the
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    church to recognize there is a crisis.
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    Then you get along and to the point where General
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    Assembly often does something. Sometimes General Assembly says, "Well, you
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    know. Go off and do something." and you go through a whole other process
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    of getting geared up. [Blake speaking] Unless it's prepared ahead of time, General Assembly is too big a body to do
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    anymore that's right. [Bauer speaking] So what we want to do
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    is talk a little bit about
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    how how things developed. How that matured. When was
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    it recognized. Who was involved in recognizing
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    it. Who were the people who really
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    said this is something we have to do something. It's that kind of thing. [Blake] Well I can tell the race. Well,
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    I won't do it now, but I mean. [Bauer] OK let's start with McCarthy [Senator Joseph McCarthy.] Nobody else
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    was talking about that. All right let's start
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    [Blake] When
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    I became stated
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    Clerk, one of the things that I had to do was to read a lot
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    of papers including the job description of the
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    Stated Clerk. [Bauer] And, what year was that,
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    Gene? [Blake] It was in in fifty-
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    one I was forty six years
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    old and had been a pastor for eleven years
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    in California. Yes. Five years in
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    Albany, assistant pastor three years in New
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    York. That was the
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    background.
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    I read this job
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    description. And, it said that my job was
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    to carry
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    on the correspondence of the General Assembly.
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    Now, when you have a title
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    like Clerk and that is there. and I think maybe I can downgrade the job
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    awful quick. [Bauer] Certainly can. [Blake] But,
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    I looked at it myself
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    and said, I think that means that if you want to talk to the Presbyterians,
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    you've got to talk to the Stated Clerk.
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    [Bauer] All right. [Blake] That was it. All right well
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    what are the most important things to
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    talk about. It was clear by fifty-one, if
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    the ecumenical movement and church and state were the
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    two things. And, I decided I would give
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    my time to that. Now, I don't know if
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    this was
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    now with that
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    there were the Seven Last Words. You've heard of the Seven Last
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    Words? [Bauer] Which
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    list? [Blake] Well, the joke was that it was
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    Hermann Morse [Morse, H. N. [Hermann Nelson], General Secretary, Board of National Missions, PCUSA] and
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    all the colleagues, there were seven of them. [Bauer] Oh, I see. There were seven of
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    All right. [Blake] It was very interesting.
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    Hermann Morris was
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    senior.
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    and he stayed senior.
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    or yes but he
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    didn't he didn't have the
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    position that made him senior to my work, for example.
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    or to Payne [Payne, Paul C., General Secretary, Board of Christian Education, PCUSA]. In fact Payne was senior as
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    far as I was concerned.
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    As far as counting on leadership, Don Hibbard [Hibbard, Donald L., Executive Vice President, Board of Pensions]
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    was the worst. Board of Pensions. [Bauer] Yeah. [Blake] He was all right, but I
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    mean. He didn't have anything to say that
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    was important. Glenn Moore [Moore, Glenn Warner, Secretary, General Council, PCUSA] and I came east together.
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    Glenn Moore is a humble man,
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    really. I mean I am very fond of him. We only had one
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    fight which
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    was toward the end of our time. And no fight in matter of fact.
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    He thought that he should be something which I was sure
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    I should
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    be but his typical
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    thing with relation to me was I never have a decent
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    idea but I learned how to recognize one when I
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    heard it. Which is, that's all right. That, it was a good
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    deal of him in that way and I used to talk a good
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    deal as we came east as a pair from California, you see, to take
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    over the General Council.
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    The General Council, of course, was the executive committee of
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    the Presbyterian or of the Presbyterian Church USA at that time.
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    Now. How do you work with
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    that
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    thing? They never had
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    an executive of the Council
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    before, like Glenn Moore was. The Stated Clerk did it in his spare
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    time. [Bauer] Oh. I didn't know that. [Blake] Oh, yeah. [Bauer] Excuse me. Who was the
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    seven? Morse, Payne, Levert, Hibbard, Moore,
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    Blake. That is six. [Blake] Well, it must be another. [Bauer]
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    Seminary president down at Princeton probably [Mackay, John Alexander]. [Blake] No, no, no, no.
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    It was a four four boards. [Bauer] Who was? Who was? [Blake] I am sure
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    John Peters. [Peters, John Thompson] John Peters. He was a money raiser. [Bauer] John Thompson Peters.
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    right. [Blake] Was that the seventh? [Bauer] Yeah. Okay.
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    [Blake] He was a
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    disappointed candidate for Stated Clerk.
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    too. [Bauer] There is always a group of us.
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    a guy.
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    So I looked at them this way and I
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    didn't see any advantage in downgrading it. And, I knew enough to know that
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    the moderators come and go so fast that it's very difficult for them to
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    give leadership.
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    This is the reason when. Now, the biggest thing
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    that happened with regard to McCarthyism in
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    the Presbyterian Church was
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    our letter to Presbyterians, which came out. And, I don't have the
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    date, do
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    you know? [Bauer] Not off the top of my head but I sure can find out.
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    [Blake] Well, that is something I had thought of, as I was thinking about it. I should be able to
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    look it up. I could find it if
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    my eyes were better. But, the letter to Presbyterians.
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    Let me just express.
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    Explain what it is John Mackay. [ Mackay, John, President of Princeton Theological Seminary] is certainly responsible for it.
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    he he was the
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    idea and he offered to draft one.
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    And, it was at this time
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    of the McCarthyism period.
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    Everybody was frightened. But, John was never frightened of anything.
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    And so he wrote the
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    first draft. And, I made it my business to see that it wasn't
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    laid on John.
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    Frankly I was protecting
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    him as much as grabbing power
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    myself. I would say that it was.
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    But my, my system therefore was
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    that we redid his letter and we
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    did edit his letter.
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    He wrote English, rather than
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    American. running on thing and things like that right.
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    But I remember very well
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    that I decided it was
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    the. I don't know, this is
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    one of those places
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    where there might have been trouble been laid on me because
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    if it's a General Council letter to Presbyterians then he is the Secretary to the General Council why don't
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    he release
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    it? [Bauer] Right. [Blake] Well I thought it ought to be released by the
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    Stated Clerk. and I flew down from Glens Falls in a private.
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    I was up in Glens Falls for a presbytery meeting for
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    something
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    I drove to Albany and saw I was going to be too late to get
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    there for my date to release this letter.
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    So I drove to the airport in Albany and got
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    a hired a plane. When it landed
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    that called up my house in New Canaan. Had
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    myself
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    met by a man who worked for
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    us and I got there just in time at one
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    fifty-six Fifth Avenue in the old days that is where it was.
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    [Bauer] Right. [Blake] and
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    I released the
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    letter at that point on behalf of
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    the moderator and the General Council. I think that would be the
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    point. I made it. Tried to make it
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    not an individual but not
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    anything less than an individual either. In fact as more as a Moderator and the General
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    Council. But me acting. [Bauer] Right.
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    [Blake] now I don't I don't think I figured that out exactly, but I think it is the right way to
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    do it, now that I think of
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    it. And, it hit the front page of the New York
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    Times.Now, there are not many things that the church does come right out
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    of. My closest friend
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    of the
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    seven was Paul Payne [Payne, Paul C.], as I've indicated. I worked with
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    him on the
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    Board of Christian Education from the time he
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    came.
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    and. So let me give you another illustration
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    of something that kind of action.
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    We had a black man
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    in North Carolina. You will have to look
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    up Presbyterian Life. You'll have a job to
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    do to get these names. I won't be able to tell them to you.
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    So you'd better have Presbyterian Life handy because they
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    covered everything pretty well in those days. Cadigan [Cadigan, Robert, editor] and Heinze [Heinze, Robert H.]
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    were making a real
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    paper. It had
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    two million circulation. [Bauer] Two mission. Is that right? [Blake] That was
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    That was. It was one of the great periods.
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    Late forty's.
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    Yes, dear? [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] I don't know
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    if you are talking about the McCarthy thing. Have you got this on?
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    Yes a lot of us or didn't you know I think those but I thought I
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    did tell you something from the beginning well I don't know what
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    you really
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    want but when I first came. You remember Jim Robinson [Robinson, James Herman] late. Oh
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    yes. he really is
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    the beginning of the Peace Corps because he
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    started sending young people over a way in West
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    Africa. [Bauer] He is the reason I'm in the ministry. [Blake] is he?
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    Well [Bauer] He spoke at Grinnell the first Grinnell I believe.
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    And that's as close to a conversion experience as I've ever gotten well. [Blake] It's great to
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    have. Anyway he had just come back when I
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    came East fifty
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    one for this new job. He had just come back from a
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    trip around the world speaking on behalf of the Christian
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    church and our church and
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    the nation because the State Department
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    sent him in order to witness to how fine it was to be a
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    free black man in the United
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    States. [Bauer] Okay. [Blake] Well that was fine, except another part of the Department [Department of State]
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    Passport Department. Frances
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    Knight [Knight Parrish, Frances] was running that department and she threatened
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    to take his passport away from him for other reasons
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    entirely. Scott McLeod [McLeod, Robert Walter Scott] who is
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    another
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    Presbyterian over her under Dulles all of them
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    there, were about to take Jim
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    Robinson's passport away from him.
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    Now, you asked how I worked. I went down to Frances
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    Knight. And, I said if you don't get Jim his passport back right
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    away you will have the worst stink on your hands that you ever saw.
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    Now, how do you act? [Bauer] Right. [Blake] I mean you see.
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    But you've got
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    to have enough nerve to act and
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    [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] behind you. [Blake] Never mind you want to come in and add
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    footnotes. [Bauer] That's all right. [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] Well, it is!
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    [Blake] Well that was the beginning of
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    that relationship. Now I
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    did know Dulles [Dulles, John Foster] and the most was never as bad as
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    this front page press.
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    If you if you read what Dulles actually said in the back of the Times [New York Times] in those
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    days it wasn't as a papers no
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    good compared to what is,
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    Was then because they didn't have these boxes in the back I learned how
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    to read the paper from back to front that really had the full
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    text. They had the text of what a man said. You read what he said, then you so what some stupid
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    reporter's buddies
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    said. And, the
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    difference was tremendous. Well anyway. In any
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    case
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    [Bauer] Can we? [Blake] Don't . Go ahead
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    [Bauer] Let's go back to
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    this. How was it first
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    recognized that this McCarthyism thing was really a problem? Did
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    you. Did you and others
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    just. [Blake] Yes. Everybody was scared to death of him that that was that that was
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    the fact. And, most people buttered him
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    up, but there was a fellow named
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    Benton [Benton, William Burnett] and Bowles [Bowles, Chester Bliss], those two.
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    One of them was senator
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    from Connecticut. Was that Benton or Bowles?
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    Chester Bowles. In any case.
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    See this is one of my troubles now. My memory is
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    not what it should be. And my eyes have been such I can't quickly check
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    up either. YSo that I can read but
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    it's I don't read enough. Well
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    anyway. One of them got beat by
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    McCarthy for the Senate. I think
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    Lodge beat him. John Oliver Lodge was still around.
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    Stupid as
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    ever but he
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    beat. McCarthy beat
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    this Senator who had attacked him.
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    And so they all were scared from then on.
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    That would be probably
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    fifty-
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    two. I imagine an election I don't know
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    [Bauer] All right. [Blake] It will be the high time.
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    [Bauer] And what you're saying in a sense is that from the
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    Christian
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    perspective or at least from
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    an informed Christian theological
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    perspective
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    McCarthyism was, was just obviously. [Blake] Well it
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    attacked us too.
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    Let's remember that this guy J.B. Matthews [Matthews, J. B. [Joseph Brown]], who
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    was Senator McCarthy's assistant
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    an ex Communist.
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    and this is a
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    typical ploy. Anybody who is an ex Communist is to be
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    believed. [Bauer] right. [Blake] and he didn't need to be believed or
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    really but he had said that seven thousand clergyman
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    were communists or
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    communist infiltrators. and my answer to that one, without
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    consulting anyone, was name one.
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    Never heard a
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    thing! but I mean that that was going on so
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    it
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    wasn't. We didn't take up the battle first. They were battling
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    us.
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    now when I came on in fifty-one. Well I think Truman was still
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    president, nominally. Because Eisenhower was elected in fifty-two.
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    So I I have
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    to admit, I didn't think as much of Truman then as I
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    do now. [Bauer] Um. [Blake]
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    was Truman wasn't on
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    their relationship to the
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    church Truman wanted to get
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    you out as pleasantly and as fast as
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    possible. It was a very interesting contrast of Ike.
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    Ike I knew best. I
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    guess but because he thought. Well, he
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    became a
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    Presbyterian
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    and, he
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    did some good things. He was also a very bad
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    writer too. He was a good bridge player, and anybody who can play bridge as well as he can
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    can't be. [Bauer] It takes some brains to play a good
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    game of bridge. And he played. He played in a high league of bridge.
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    Where are we? Well. [Bauer] So they had. They had attacked
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    the Church so it was clear that there was
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    an animosity.
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    Where? It was Mackay's [Mackay, John Alexander, President Princeton Theological Seminary] idea to write the letter
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    but there had to be discussion
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    somewhere among the Seven Last Words or in the General Council. [Blake] No. It was the
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    General Council.
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    I think I'm right because Mackay was a
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    moderator. He is either Moderator or the next year is Moderator [Mackay was moderator 1953.]
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    and I don't know which. That's the reason. [Bauer]All right we'll check that. [Blake] I
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    I think that he's still moderator.
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    That would make him chairman of the General [Bauer] General Council.
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    [Blake] I think he wrote to us.
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    He suggested that he would thought that it was a crucial time and we ought
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    to take the position.
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    Now John, of course, was unusual. I don't know whether you realize it he
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    wrote real stuff in
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    the New York Times magazine
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    section all during the War. He didn't take a damn
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    word back. [Bauer] after that right. [Blake] I mean, that was something of his
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    strength. And it wasn't just pap either.
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    It
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    was. He was the first one who dared to
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    mention recognizing China.
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    He did that in the
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    forty's. [Bauer] That is incredible! [Blake] So he
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    had status to to do something. And, he
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    wrote this thing
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    and we were smart enough on the General
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    Council to realize we had something that was good and useful and ought to
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    be the position.
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    Now that is the. There is a piece which I think needs to
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    be done in your report.
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    I don't want to be quoted too
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    much. Glenn Moore [Moore, Glenn Warner] is a good one. [Bauer] Right. [Blake] to find out. [Bauer] Yes,
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    and he's going to be part of it. [Blake] and he may have may have been
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    I don't know
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    whether I guess
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    I
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    well I
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    didn't
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    Well, let Glenn put it himself. as
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    a contrasting our positions as your
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    the chief permanent
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    officer of the Presbyterian Church. I am the
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    chief
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    hired man. [Bauer] So, that is interesting. [Blake] See I am. I was the
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    officer elected by the top
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    body and stated that
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    that was more than one year at a time. [Bauer] Was
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    that right? [Blake] Se had no position in the Presbyterian
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    Church between assemblies
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    if you don't mae them stated.
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    OK Now. I am wondering as you see. [Bauer] Now, that's all right. [Blake]
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    When you want to move into something else.
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    [Bauer] Let's
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    pursue this one. What [Blake] Race. I was starting
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    at the beginning of the race. [Bauer] Well, but I want to see
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    this McCarthy thing one more time. So the thing was published in the paper. I mean published in the
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    church and it went in the on the front page of The New
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    York Times. Did all hell break loose at that point?
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    [Blake] No we
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    want is
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    Stevens [Stevens, Robert T., Secretary of the Army] who was secretary of
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    war and
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    he wasn't a beauty either.
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    but he was tickled to death with it. So we were thick as
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    thieves with the Secretary of War, the Presbyterians against McCarthy.
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    [Bauer] Ah! Okay. [Blake] In other words,
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    not since Reagan's been
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    here have preachers been so
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    important
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    i those things they're hard to know what. You
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    know. I
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    can recall things well that was way up but I don't remember I didn't live my life
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    on them. [Bauer] Right but the the church.
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    It did not create
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    a kind of a fracture in the church as I recall. You see no. fifty two is
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    when I went to seminary and that's when I started seminary. So this was right before I went into the parish.
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    So. [Blake] You must have been thinking about it.
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    [Bauer] Yes but it was a
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    wasn't directly involved
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    seminary people thought it was
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    fantastic but then [Blake] Good! [Bauer] but I was at McCormick and you had all
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    the Wright [Wright George Ernest] , Cross [Cross, Frank M., Jr.] and Haroutunian [Haroutunian, Joseph] and folks like that who
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    would who would respond favorably
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    [Blake] Well, not necessarily. It was the president of Princeton [Mackay, John Alexander] who did it.
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    [Bauer] Yes. But in terms of the church's general response,
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    you didn't get a lot of hate mail
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    or. [Blake] Sure I always had hate mail.
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    [Bauer] Sure.
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    [Blake] Most of the time it wasn't worth answering.
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    [Bauer] But this is didn't cause anything like Angela Davis? or anything like that?
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    No. Angela Davis was a stupid one.
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    I was in Europe so I can say that.
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    [Bauer] You can say that.
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    [Blake] Tumbling on a recent one
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    on Bob Jones college. I think
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    that this again I don't. This is not for a quote, by the way
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    and they was not a place
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    In the church that they weren't eligible to be
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    elected and I thought that was enough to
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    do. [Bauer] And, then time would take care of it?
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    [Blake] Well. If you. If it was right
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    why you would push for it but you wouldn't force
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    it. [Bauer] And, the recent thing was to force
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    it. [Blake] right and we pay for that. [Bauer] We did.
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    And we tried to get
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    the women's thing or the
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    women's group off of that to see what they were doing. But they
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    just there was not enough
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    statesmanship involved. Let's go on to the race
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    thing which you started
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    before. [Blake] I started the first thing that happened to me one
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    of our pastors down in the Carolinas, one of them,
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    got arrested and needed ten thousand
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    dollars
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    bail. He was
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    going to be in
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    jail, which can mean anything in [Bauer] Yes. [Blake] in the
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    Carolinas.
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    I
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    called Paul Payne. Paul, should we do something about
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    this? and he said yes we
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    should. He said I'll back you with the money if you'll take
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    the
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    action. So
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    I took action on myself and made available ten thousand
  • speaker
    dollars bail, sent it to him, and got
  • speaker
    it got him out of jail.
  • speaker
    Now the effect of that on the relationship of blacks to
  • speaker
    the Stated Clerk's office
  • speaker
    was something that you can't
  • speaker
    believe. A few months later I think it was.
  • speaker
    The black radicals of the
  • speaker
    Northeast dissolved themselves and sent the balance of their money
  • speaker
    to the Stated Clerk.
  • speaker
    backing everything as such. That. That happened.
  • speaker
    I learned from that one
  • speaker
    what happens when you take a
  • speaker
    right action. We got enough money through the stories that Bob
  • speaker
    Heinze [Heinze, Robert H.] wrote about
  • speaker
    it in Presbyterian Life so that we never had
  • speaker
    to have any money. People gave it to us.
  • speaker
    And so we were we were at a right time. But that was the
  • speaker
    first breakthrough on the
  • speaker
    situation in our church. [Bauer] What year would that be
  • speaker
    approximately? You said before, I need to check
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Life. I will.
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    [Blake] By the way,
  • speaker
    I think Heinze would be a very good person
  • speaker
    for you to talk to.
  • speaker
    Frank is good but
  • speaker
    not. Bob knows
  • speaker
    more than Frank will ever know.
  • speaker
    I like them both , I mean. [Bauer] Oh, yes. they both of them.
  • speaker
    But Bob is beyond
  • speaker
    He is in bad bad physical
  • speaker
    shape but you can go and see him in Fort Lee, which would be very thoughtful.
  • speaker
    He would be very helpful. And, if he would
  • speaker
    be glad to help
  • speaker
    you find. if he I think his memory is better than mine.
  • speaker
    [Bauer] Okay. I will talk to him. [Blake] He might.
  • speaker
    I just realize that he's somebody that I'd
  • speaker
    ask when was that.
  • speaker
    Now, that would
  • speaker
    be
  • speaker
    certainly
  • speaker
    before the race
  • speaker
    thing got important. The big thing that happened to race was
  • speaker
    in
  • speaker
    May of nine-
  • speaker
    teen. [Bauer]
  • speaker
    about to not be able to. Irwin Miller [Miller, J. Irwin. CEO Cummins Engine Corporation, Disciples of Christ] who was then the president of the
  • speaker
    National Council of Churches. So that would be before between fifty seven and
  • speaker
    sixty. I am pretty certain of
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    In early
  • speaker
    May television and its first
  • speaker
    basic influence
  • speaker
    on the race problem with the cops and the
  • speaker
    dogs, fire hoses on the streets of Birmingham.
  • speaker
    Irwin Miller, being the moderator of the, President of the National Council, had been
  • speaker
    invited to Des Moines, that's the year [1963].
  • speaker
    The Des Moines General
  • speaker
    Assembly. [Bauer] That's right. [Blake] and he was
  • speaker
    there talking about money. What do you do for money.
  • speaker
    We did appropriate five hundred thousand dollars that we had the
  • speaker
    plan to
  • speaker
    at sixty three. The reason was it was a new situation a creates a
  • speaker
    situation and five hundred
  • speaker
    thousand dollars was
  • speaker
    done. And, the National
  • speaker
    Council, through its president who was there when we did
  • speaker
    it, supported it and
  • speaker
    committed himself to find other support, National Council support. Anyway.
  • speaker
    Just how fast this thing went. This is
  • speaker
    May. By the middle of June, we had a
  • speaker
    staff in the National Council of Churches.
  • speaker
    We had support from the major mainline denominations. Some of them
  • speaker
    never
  • speaker
    paid. I'll not mention who.[Bauer] All right.
  • speaker
    [Blake] But we had it
  • speaker
    and I found myself to my
  • speaker
    surprise acting chairman of the religion
  • speaker
    and race thing of the National
  • speaker
    Council because the chairman
  • speaker
    was Lichtenberger, [Lichtenberger, Arthur Carl] presiding bishop the Episcopal
  • speaker
    Church. He got ill, and the doctor wouldn't let him do anything
  • speaker
    all summer. So Lichtenberger asked me if I would
  • speaker
    act for him, and he never came back, as a matter of fact, so I
  • speaker
    was left. In the middle of the month of July.
Details
Title

Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 1.

Description

Interview conducted as part of Bauer's preparation of the report "An Historical Study of Past Denominational Responses to Social, Political and Economic Crises."

Creator

Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985. (interviewee)
Bauer, Richard Waldron, 1930- (interviewer)

Date

1983

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

interviews
sound recordings

Form

audiocassettes

Extent

1 audio cassette : 1-7/8 ips

Language

English

Subject names

United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. General Assembly (194th : 1982 : Hartford, Conn.)
Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985.

Topics

Civil rights--United States.
Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Geographic subjects

Hartford (Conn.)
North and Central America--United States--Connecticut--Hartford

Rights status

Contact repository for more information

Physical location

ARCHIVES 85-0930; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

R. W. Bauer papers, 1977-1985.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

85-0930_bauer_blake_1983_side1

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:116415

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