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Gayraud Wilmore interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 1.
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- speaker[Wilmore speaking] I want to respond first of
- speakerall to the question
- speakerhaving to do with the beginning of our
- speakerchurch's witnessing
- speakerin the field of race
- speakerrelations, particularly after 1963.
- speakerOf course, as you
- speakerknow, the old Department of Social Education and Action
- speakerhad responsibilities for race relations up to that period.
- speakerSo that it was in the Board of Christian Education under
- speakerthe leadership of Clifford Earle [Earle, Clifford John]
- speakerthat the major
- speakerthrust of the church in the field of race
- speakerrelations was planned executed.
- speaker[Bauer] How would you characterize that? [Wilmore] I think that
- speakerwas fairly important
- speakerbecause it was around
- speakerthe development and promulgation of pronouncements and
- speakerpolicy statements that we finally decided what our posture was in the field of race.
- speakerI mean it took a period of years, I would say, from the early
- speakerfifty's to
- speakernineteen sixty three for the United Prtesbyterian
- speakerchurch to amass
- speakersufficent policy in the
- speakerfield of race to enable it to take that giant
- speakerstep. [Bauer] OK [Wilmore] that came at the Denver Assembly [General Assembly of the UPCUSA]. Was that the Denver Center in 1963.
- speakerSo, what happened under Clifford Earle's leadership,
- speakerand Jesse Belmont Barber, incidentally, was involved in
- speakerthat in the earliest period. This was the period of the Institute of Race
- speakerRelations, which was our church's attempt to respond to the whole question
- speakerof prejudice. Not discrimination
- speakerat this point, but prejudice. How do we deal with
- speakerprejudice in the life of white
- speakerPresbyterians. And our
- speakerresponse to that was to set
- speakerup this race relations institute at Lincoln
- speakerUniversity, which had the intention
- speakerof dealing with the whole problem of attitudinal
- speakerchange within this predominately white middle
- speakerclass church. How do we help white Presbyterians to get over their predudices.
- speaker[Bauer] Was Barber white or black?
- speaker[Wilmore] Barber was black. And, he was the dean of the of the theological seminary at Lincoln
- speakerUniversity. He was brought in to
- speakerwork in that field.Now there was another
- speakerman involved. It wasn't Clifford Earle at that time. I can't remember the other white
- speakerman's name.
- speakerI think Clifford Earle came
- speakerin after the race relations
- speakerinstitute had been established with this other person and Jesse Barber.
- speakerIn any case, after Clifford came in,
- speakerwe began to develop pretty
- speakersharp church strong pronouncements in the area of race relations.
- speakerThis was because, of course, of the Montgomery bus boycott of 55,
- speakerwhich began to force the
- speakerchurch to declare itself in relationship to the King [King, Martin Luther, Jr.] movement
- speakerwhere it stood in relationship to civil
- speakerdisobedience and massive demonstrations
- speakerand
- speakermarches
- speakeragainst the problem of
- speakersegregation in the south. [Bauer] Can I go back to the Barber thing because no one else has
- speakerreally talked
- speakerabout that. Was? It was in a black
- speakerinstitution? [Wilmore] The Race Relations Institute?
- speaker[Bauer] Yes. [Wilmore] Summer institutes, I think they were. [Bauer] Did they bring white people in to talk
- speakerabout it? [Wilmore] White and black sat down together to talk about
- speakertheir prejudices. And, how we though about one another, and how we get rid of these prejudices. [Bauer] Were you
- speakerinvolved in that? [Wilmore] I was involved with some of it. [Bauer] Yes.
- speaker[Wilmore] But that was kind of the style of those days. They had conferences
- speakerand presbytery events brought blacks and whites together to deal
- speakerwith the whole
- speakerproblem of racial healing. [Bauer] Yes. [Wilmore] And, it was a time of
- speakerconfession. It was a time in which the white church
- speakerconfessed that it was prejudiced, that it was a racist church.
- speakerHow now can we by putting this out on the table get rid
- speakerof it? That was the strategy in those early days. And I, I see
- speakera clear division between the early strategy that had to do
- speakerattitudinal change and the later strategy which had to do with direct action. [Bauer] Yes, okay.
- speaker[Wilmore] I think King is the dividing line, so to speak,
- speakerbetween those two periods in the American Churches
- speakergenerally.
- speakerThe
- speakerSupreme Court decision of 1954, of course, was a
- speakervery important watershed.
- speakerAnd, it was the
- speakerSupreme Court decision of
- speakerBrown versus Board of Education decision of 1954
- speakerwhich forced the American churches, including our own,
- speakerto take a more progressive or radical
- speakerposture in respect to
- speakersegregation discrimination.
- speakerAnd, that whole
- speakeridea of a non-segregated church in non-segregated society
- speakerthat was either the Federal Council, or the National
- speakerCouncil's [National Council of Churches] slogan
- speakerreceived great impetus from the Supreme Court.
- speakerDecision struck down legal segregation in the schools and by
- speakerimplication in all aspects of American society.
- speakerSo we're talking about a very
- speakerimportant time, Dick, a period of
- speakerthe mid fifties-- Supreme Court decision, Montgomery bus boycott of 1955--
- speakerdespite
- speakerthe a
- speakerincreasing
- speakerradical quality
- speakerof General Assembly pronouncements in the field of
- speakerrace during that period going up to sixty-three,
- speakerwhich we spoke out on, housing discrimination
- speakerspoke out on FEPC, although that was a
- speakerlittle early. Spoke out on civil disobedience.
- speakerWe put ourselves squarely on the side of Dr King [King, Martin Luther, Jr.]
- speakerand his strategies, which were non-violent direct action strategies.
- speaker[Bauer] Now was that because of personal contacts with
- speakerKing or just personal general sympathy?
- speaker[Wilmore] I think that was general sympathy plus increasing pressure
- speakerfrom our own black constituency.
- speaker[Bauer] OK [Wilmore] Just before
- speakerthat time
- speakeror was it just after?
- speakerIt was during that period that the old Council of the North and Wes, which was
- speakerblack ... almost a black church within the white church, decided to
- speakerdisband. The Council on the North and West. [Afro-American Presbyterian Council of the North and West] [Bauer] I don't know that one.
- speaker[Wilmore] It was an unoffical
- speakerblack conference or
- speakercouncil bringing together all our black Presbyterian churches
- speakerand clergy in the North and in the West. That was in existence for
- speakermany years.
- speaker[Bauer] And, who was behind that?
- speaker[Wilmore] Well, all the clergy in the north and west were members of that. [Bauer] When you said West, did they really mean
- speakerfar west? [Wilmore] Yes. I'm talking about
- speakerthe far west. I'm talking about everything except the south.
- speaker[Bauer] Yeah, right. [Wilmore] Because you see, in the south, the black churches
- speakerwere in segregated judicatories anyway. [Bauer] Right. [Wilmore] And were able to exercise
- speakerpower by virtue of the fact that they were legal entities of the church. In the
- speakerNorth, blacks were scattered in predominately white judicatories with no power.
- speakerAnd so they pulled themselves together in the late nineteenth century into
- speakera council. It used to be called the Afro-American Council now the Council of the North and
- speakerWest, which
- speakermade, which had annual meetings, like a General Assembly.
- speakerIt had a women's unit.
- speakerpassed legislation
- speakerdid things that were of concern
- speakerto black Presbyterians in all parts of the country
- speakerexcept the deep south.
- speakerThey decided, after the Supreme Court decision,
- speakerthat, because of the direction the church and the nation were taking, that they could
- speakerdisband. And, they turned over the resources of the council [Afro-American Presbyterian Council of the North and West]
- speakerto the General Assembly and had their last
- speakermeeting
- speakerin Baltimore Maryland.I just don't remember the year. Clarence Cave [Cave, Clarence L., Philadelphia Fellowship Commission] and I were just talking about this
- speakerjust the other day and I've forgotten the day and I don't want to give it to you
- speakerbecause
- speakerI can't remember exactly when it was,
- speakerbut you can find that. The thing that brought C.O.C.A.R. [Council on Church and Race] into
- speakerexistence
- speakerwas pressure partly pressure from these black
- speakerclergy, mainly Edler Hawkins [Hawkins, Edler Garnett], Bryant George,
- speakerRobert Johnson,
- speakerClarence Cave [Cave, Clarence L.] some others, but those are some of the
- speakermajor ones. Pressure from [Bauer] Just a minute. Edler, Bryant, and then I've missed in the next ones. [Wilmore] Clarence.
- speakerRobert Johnson. [Bauer] Bob. Bob Johnson. [Wilmore]
- speakerBob Johnson deceased, Clarence Cave.
- speaker[Bauer] And, you were involved in it?
- speakerWell, they came to me to ask me if I would
- speakerleave Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
- speakerand become the director of this Council on Church and Race which
- speakerhad been voted at the Assembly by virtue of the kind
- speakerof
- speakerpressure they and white allies
- speakerput on the Assembly in that year.
- speakerI need to step back from that because I am a little ahead of the game. What I think really make the
- speakerdifference was the Chicago Conference on
- speakerReligion and Race in January of 1963 when. It was
- speakeran interfaith conference when Jews Protestants and Catholics came
- speakertogether in
- speakerChicago and committed themselves to an unprecented movement
- speakerfor racial justice in
- speakersupport of King. [King, Martin Luther, Jr.]
- speakerAnd, it was at that meeting that the National Council of
- speakerChurches decided that it
- speakerwould form a Commission on Religion and
- speakerRace
- speakerand would encourage all of the Protestant denominations
- speakerthat were member churches to do the same. And, our
- speakerchurch was the first to respond.
- speakerWe organized a
- speakercounterpart group in the Presbyertain Church Commission on Religion and Race
- speakerin response to
- speakerthe calls from the N.C.C. [National Council of Churches],
- speakerwhich had set its up shortly after that
- speakerJanuary conference in Chicago.
- speakerOurs was setup at the Assembly which came in May of that year.
- speakerAnd the point I guess I'm making
- speakernow is that that decision was a critical
- speakerdecision made in a time of
- speakercrisis. The crisis was that King [King, Martin Luther, Jr.] was out there moving. And,
- speakerthe American churches, the predominantly white churches, had not organized
- speakerthemselves sufficiently up to that point to really be the kind of
- speakersupport network that he needed, support group that he needed.
- speakerAnd Chicago conference [Chicago Conference on Religion and Race] helped to bring that about, not only within the Protestant family, but
- speakerwith respect to Jews and Roman Catholics.
- speakerThe N.C.C.'s immediate response to that, or the most direct
- speakerresponse of the N.C.C. was a Commission on Religion and Race. And, we followed very quickly
- speakerafter that, as ecumenical as we have always been. [Bauer] Yes. [Wilmore] to do the same
- speakerthing and we went to the Denver
- speakerAssembly. That's where it was. I think it was Denver. And voted five hundred thousand
- speakerdollars to kick off this new
- speakerCommission on Religion and Race which was to
- speakerbe headquartered in New York and
- speakerto have administrative relationship to the Board of Christian Education,
- speakeras I recall,
- speakerand waas to have a full time
- speakerstaff. The black guys who were involved in
- speakerthat decision, in the corridors and behind committee doors at the
- speakerDenver Assembly, were those that I
- speakermentioned. They came to me and asked
- speakerme if I would come to New York and set it up, organize it.
- speakerI think that by virtue of the fact that I had been a staff
- speakerperson in the Department of Social Education and Action, which
- speakerwas carrying the major programatic
- speakerresponsibility for race up to
- speakerthat point, even
- speakerthough Ben Sissel [Sissel, H. B. [Howard Benjamin], 1921-] was ostensibly the person who was carrying the major
- speakerformal responsibility. Staff responsibility for race. I was in
- speakerthere and, of course, worked with him in developing
- speakerthe pronouncements, the race pronouncements and steering
- speakerthe standing Committee of
- speakerChurch and Society, for Social Education and Action. [Bauer] Now, when were you
- speakerat S.E.A.?
- speaker[Wilmore] I was there
- speakeryears ago. You lose track.
- speakerI was there from the mid fifties
- speakerI don't remember exactly what the date was.
- speakerI guess I came there. Maybe I came there in fifty four.
- speakerThis watch was given to me by
- speakerthe staff there.
- speakerI left there in nineteen
- speakersixty
- speakerI must have been there about six years. Maggie Kuhn, Ben
- speakerSissel, Howard. Howard Maxwell. [Bauer] Oh, yeah. [Wilmore] Do you remember that group?
- speaker[Bauer] Oh! I do. They had a great deal to do with the formation
- speakerof my thinking in the early days.
- speaker[Wilmore] Helen Lineweaver,
- speakerthe Washington office. Clifford Earle. Helen Harlan.
- speakerAll of those people were at the center of our church's development of
- speakerpolicy and program in the field of race during the fifties. And, I
- speakerwas in part of that group. [Bauer] There was a conference on
- speakerbehalf of emerging African nations at the UN and in Washington
- speakerand I wrote to the conference. I'm a young pastor
- speakerfrom Cincinnati and I am interested, but I ain't got no money. They wrote back and said we got money.
- speakerCome on. Tremendous impact on me. [Wilmore] They have great conferences
- speakerin Washington with great breakfasts with congressmen, senators and
- speakerthen moving around the Capitol Hill lobbying for legislation
- speakerand talking to people. [Bauer] Who was the guy?
- speakerThe pioneer of Black American history. He was at Howard University. His daughter [Hansberry, Lorraine, 1930-1965] wrote, was the playwright that wrote.
- speaker[Wilmore] Oh Hansberry. Oh Yeah. Leo Hansberry [Hansberry, William Leo].
- speaker[Bauer] We sat down with him the whole evening. He really blows my mind
- speaker[Wilmore] Especially. Lorraine's dad.
- speakerright with that. And Jim Robinson [Robinson, James Herman] too. Remember him, too?
- speakerHe was, he was probably part of that
- speakerblack group that had so much influence on the Assembly.
- speaker[Bauer] He spoke
- speakerto at the nineteen forty-
- speakerseven Grinnell Assembly. And, when I heard that speech, I walked around
- speakertown for a whole night, and I decided that the only thing I could was go into ministry. [Wilmore] Is that right? [Bauer] That's right. [Wilmore] He was one of
- speakerthe people who helped you make that decision. [Bauer] He pushed me over
- speakerthe. So I've always had a difficult time with my anti-black
- speakerbrothers in the clergy.
- speaker[Wilmore] Jim Robinson. Marvelous preacher. Any way. At any rate, those were the people
- speakerwho helped the Assembly come to that decision. I don't know what was going
- speakeron there because I wasn't there, but I understand a lot of politicking went
- speakeron. They pushed the
- speakerchurch into that position, five hundred thousand dollars. Whoo. Of course the help of people like
- speakerSissel [Sissel, H. B. [Howard Benjamin] and Earle [Earle, Clifford John],
- speakerKenny Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn, 1908-1998. Director, UPCUSA Program Agency] and Bill Morrison of the Board of Christian Education. The Board of
- speakerChristian Education was very much at the head of that movement. It couldn't have happened without. [Bauer] Without them.
- speakerNow you made a comment I want to go back to. I want to just ask you. You said that the Chicago
- speakerConference [Chicago Conference on Religion and Race] in essence was in support of what King was doing. Was that? Is that a
- speakerretrospective comment or was that the way it was as it was happening?
- speaker[Wilmore] Well I wasn't there, but as I read the record, the
- speakerhistory of that period, it's my impression
- speakerthat
- speakerthe leaders of churches and synagogues in
- speakerAmerica decided that
- speakerit was high time to come together and close ranks in order
- speakerto put the religious community on the side of the civil rights movement. That
- speakerwas a national Conference, probably the most inportant conference, they had up to that time.
- speakerFor the purpose, I think
- speakerat that of supporting Dr. King. [Bauer] Who at that point was there
- speaker[Wilmore] I guess he attended, made a speech there but I'm sure about that
- speaker[Bauer] So you packed your bags and went to New York.
- speakerI was teaching at Pittsburgh seminary,
- speakerdoing, graduate work on my doctorate the same time.
- speakerI left all of that and
- speakercame to New York and Metzler
- speakerHolland
- speakerand Bob Davidson. Bob was white. I was black.
- speakerset up the office and began to
- speakerdesign a program for
- speakerthe new Council on
- speakerChurch and Race. Religion and Race at that time. Later, it changed its name
- speakerto Church and Race.
- speakerSome of the characteristics of that
- speakercrisis were therefore the pressure
- speakerfrom the civil
- speakerrights movement under the leadership of Dr. King.
- speaker1963
- speakerwas a very important year here because that
- speakerwas the year of the bombing of
- speakerthe churches of the church, the Baptist
- speakerchurch [16th Street Baptist, September 15, 1963] in Birmingham which killed the three girls.
- speakerThat was the year of the March on Washington.
- speakerThat was the year of the Chicago Conference and the Assembly [Des Moines, Iowa] at which
- speakerwe created the Council on Church and Race.
- speakerSo Dr. King's movement had a tremendous
- speakereffect on the American religious establishment,
- speakerif we could use that term, in that particular year.
- speakerThat is part of the crisis.
- speakerSo I'm assuming that this
- speakercrisis initiated outside of the church, pressed
- speakerthe church to do something.
- speakerThe second characteristic of that crisis was
- speakerthe rising new consciousness of the Black
- speakerconsistency
- speakerof the United Presbyterian Church which had so recently decided to disband
- speakerits caucus. Now realize that it was a
- speakermistake and is beginning to pull itself together again under a new name
- speakercalled Concerned Presbyterians, which was founded in nineteen
- speakersixty eight
- speakeror sixty seven. Became Black Presbyterians United.
- speakerThis group
- speakerof black clergy, under the leadership then of
- speakerEdler Hawkins, Robert Pierre Johnson, Bryant George
- speakerpressed the
- speakerchurch at that point with the help of course
- speakerof white allies like
- speakerBill Morrison [Morrison, William A.], others like Kenneth Neigh and others. John Coventry Smith [Gen. Secretary, COEMAR] was there at the start.
- speakerThat was one of the characteristics of that period that there
- speakerwas strong cooperation and agreement
- speakerabout this being the direction the church ought to go to,
- speakerbetween Neigh, Morrison and Smith. And, Eugene Carson Blake [Stated Clerk, PCUSA] for that matter.
- speaker[Bauer] Was Blake in the middle of this or on the side of it?
- speaker[Wilmore] I think Blake was in the
- speakermiddle of it. As you recall,
- speakerhe was a spokesman for the churches at
- speakerthe March on Washington [March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom [1963: Washington, D.C.]. Presbyterian Church took
- speakera giant step, was out in
- speakerfront, and made a strong commitment through that
- speakera five hundred thousand
- speakerdollar
- speakerallocation and the establishment of
- speakerCOCAR it was called at that time
- speakerI guess a third
- speakerfactor that was characteristic of that
- speakerparticular crisis and maybe at that
- speakerparticular time was a strong leadership of the National Council
- speakerof Churches.
- speakerAt that time a United Church of Christ Minister
- speakerBob Spike [Spike, Robert W. [Robert Warren]]. [Bauer] Spike, yeah.
- speaker[Waldron] was in the leadership of the NCC
- speakerHe had taken over from Dr. Austin Lee
- speakera black staff person
- speakerand was giving a strong and
- speakermore
- speakerradical leadership to the N.C.C.
- speakerin the field of race
- speakerat that particular time. So
- speakerBob Spike, I think, was a very key person in these developments.
- speaker[Bauer] You arrived then
- speakeron the scene how quickly after
- speakerthe General Assembly? Do you remember? I think it was the summer of nineteen sixty three
- speakerI was there about July.
- speakerWe had moved from Pittsburgh and settled in
- speakerPrinceton and began our work
- speakerat 475 Riverside drive.
- speakerImmediately the United Presbyterian Church moved into the
- speakerSouth. By the end of that year we were preparing to set
- speakerup the Hattiesburg Ministers Project in Hattiesburg, Mississippi [Voter Registration--Mississippi] [Civil rights-Religious aspects]
- speakerBob Davidson had a lot to do with that project
- speakerNot Bob Davidson. What was his name?
- speakerI' m getting confused. [Bauer] You said Bob Davidson.
- speaker[Wilmore] Is that who I said the first time?
- speaker[Bauer] Ya right
- speakerIt wasn't Bob Johnson?
- speakerThe white Bob Johnson. [Wilmore] No. What was his name?
- speakerIt wasn't Bob Davidson. [Bauer] OK.
- speakerI wondered about that.
- speakerWhat's he doing now?
- speakerDo you know?
- speakerWe'll check on that one. [Wilmore] I know it as well
- speakerit
- speakerisn't
- speakerIn any case,
- speakerHe was Edler's [Hawkins, Edler Garnett] friend. Edler was the one who
- speakerdelivered it
- speakerunderstand
- speakerWhat were we talking about? [Bauer] Hattiesburg. The Hattiesburg Ministers Project.
- speaker[Wilmore] The Hattiesburg Ministers Project this project which
- speakertrained and deployed, I think, close to four
- speakerhundred white Presbyterian ministers and black and many white, of course,
- speakerin
- speakerHattiesburg.
- speakerBringing them there for periods from a few days to
- speakerseveral
- speakerweeks. Assign them
- speakerto walk picket
- speakerlines and encourage blacks to
- speakervote by visiting them in their homes, taking them to the polls,
- speakerand teaching in the freedom schools. We were working
- speakerwith COFO, Council of Federated Organizations, in
- speakerMississippi, which included the
- speakerN.C.C., SNIC, SCLC, and CORE.
- speakerWe were. We set up our headquarters in a storefront right across the street from their headquarters and worked very close
- speakercollaboration with these young
- speakercivil rights people
- speakerunder the leadership
- speakerin those days of Bob Moses [Moses, Robert Parrish]. I think James Forman was down there during
- speakerthe time, but mainly it was Bob Moses.
- speakerAnd, that was really an important
- speakerprogram. It was
- speakera part of the N.C.C.'s effort in what was called the Mississippi summer.
- speakerThe N.C.C.
- speakerwas supporting these youth organizations. These young civil rights workers
- speakerand trying to get something moving in Mississippi.
- speakerAnd the Hattiesburg Ministers Project project [Voter Registration--Mississippi]
- speakerwas a kind of Presbyterian contribution
- speakerto that overall effort.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthey were doing many other things
- speakerduring that period because
- speakerthe entire staff of the Board of Christian Education
- speakerBoard of National Missions made themselves
- speakeravailable to the Council
- speakeron Church, on Religion and Race [COCAR] during that early period. So
- speakerthat many things were going on that were being
- speakercoordinated by either the Commission on Religion and Race or by some
- speakerother agency of the church in consultation with the Commission on Religion and Race.
- speakerWe had was a fairly integrated program in other words
- speakerduring nineteen sixty-three, sixty-four and sixty-five.
- speakerWell I think that takes care of your first question pretty well. That is more than you wanted to know.
- speaker[Bauer] No. Oh, no! Not at all,
- speakerBecause in a sense you put out the anatomy
- speakerof how the thing, how the response came about. How the establishment of CORAR
- speakerand how it fit with what was going on in the society.
- speakerLater on this thing was transferred to, became account. It
- speakerwas transferred to the Board of National Missions. What was involved in
- speakerthat?
- speaker[Wilmore] By George
- speakerBy George and David Ramy thats who it was they were the ones involved in that
- speakerI think. they Probably the
- speakerright decision because the Board of National
- speakerMissions had this network of urban
- speakerspecialists, as you recall, and that made it made no
- speakersense for the whole program of church and race not to
- speakerbe connected with what the Board of National Missions was trying to do
- speakerin the cities through its urban specialists, George Todd [Todd, George E.] and that whole crowd,
- speakeryou know. You were part of all of that.
- speakerSo it made sense for
- speakerCOCAR to be shifted
- speakerfrom its administrative relationship
- speakerto Bill Morrison [Morrison, William A.] on the Board of Christian Education
- speakerto Kenneth Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] and the Board of National Missions. This meant
- speakerthat David Ramage [Ramage, David, Jr.] and Bryant George began to play a very
- speakerstrong role in the work of the
- speakerCouncil on Church and Race. And, we began to integrate many of the things that
- speakerwere being done by the Board of National Missions in the
- speakerurban area with the work of the staff of
- speakerChurch and Race. I guess it was about that time that we decided to change the name
- speakerfrom Commission on Religion and Race to the
- speakerCouncil on
- speakerChurch and Race.
- speaker[Bauer] Was there any? Well, there must have been some substantial
- speakerreason for that?
- speaker[Wilmore] It was more programatic than anything else.
- speakerIt also suggested philosophically that we were not so
- speakermuch concerned.
- speakerWell let's put it more this way that we were more concerned about the church as an
- speakerinstitution than we were concerned about religion as such
- speakerin terms of
- speakermobilizing Christian resources for dealing with the problem
- speakerof racism. Religion and Race seem to suggest a more
- speakerphilosophical approach. Church and Race suggest that we were
- speakerreally trying to tie in the power
- speakerof the institutional church
- speakerto the movement that Dr. King was leading.
- speaker[Bauer] You talked about the Hattiesburg project, and. Well.
- speakerLet me ask you, how long were you in
- speakerthat role then? How long were you? [Wilmore] Nineteen sixty-three
- speakerto nineteen seventy-
- speakertwo although it's a
- speakerreal.