Gayraud Wilmore interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.

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[Bauer] Really significant. What
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what I'm trying to determine at this
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point. Gay, did
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the. King was
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assassinated when? [Wilmore]
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May fourth nineteen sixty-eight. [Bauer] sixty
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eight. that's right.
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So that what you describe in terms of
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the excitement
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the dynamic of the earliest days is what i trying to get at.
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I'm trying
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to get at is
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Did the thing peak, coast, or to start up with a
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great deal of excitement, build in the same direction or
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different direction? [Wilmore] I think it built pretty
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much the same directtion. A number of very important things
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followed that. As I said the first significant effort
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was the Mississippi Summer Project of the N.C.C. in
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Hattiesburg, Mississippi. the Ministers Project
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of the United Presbyterian
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church. But,
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very shortly after that, the Delta Ministry which was a special
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project of the N.C.C. and the denominations in the
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Delta Counties in Mississippi.
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[Bauer] Doing the same kind of thing. They all became
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central. [Wilmore} It was. It was
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more development, community development
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in a very depressed and
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poverty-
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stricken area of the state of Mississippi.
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It was less, in other words, voter
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registration and developing an immediate response to
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a crisis in Mississippi that it was long term
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development. [Bauer] Okay. [Wilmore] but, that was a very important aspect of
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the total program of race relations in the protestant the churches. And, our
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church participated in that through its Council on Church and Race
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staff. Then came
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the northern city rebellions.
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the riots that occurred in
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Rochester, New
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York, Brooklyn, Newark, New Jersey, Detroit Michigan.
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Many many cities across the country, over a hundred cities across the country, from nineteen sixty- four
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through nineteen sixty-eight. The last one
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being immediately after the death of Dr. King. And our
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church was involved in almost
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all of those.
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Our staff went out in the field. I was at Watts.
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I was in Newark. I was in Detroit.
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And we served to mobilize Presbyterian resources at those
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in those places
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to relieve
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the suffering of people who are
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caught in the midst of the
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destructiveness that was reaped in the
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black areas. For
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example, food kitchens were
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set up. People had to be found places to sleep
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People had to be protected from
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maurading police
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and other kinds of threats
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of reprisal. So
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that for example I remember one
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time I was in Watts with a group of church
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people, who were barricading themselves against the Hell's Angels who were supposed
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to come into that black neighborhood that night and reprisal against what
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happened in Watts. And, this was in the area that was
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served by the church [Los Angeles, Bel Vue Presbyterian] that St. Paul Epps pastored. I
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forget the name of that
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church in the Watts area so
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that a lot of things had to be done. And, the churches worked
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with the social
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agencies and civic groups to provide services in those
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situations. Our
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staff was a part of Presbyterian outreach. [Bauer] You
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said there were over one hundred cities or a hundred rebellions? [Wilmore] Cities
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were caught up in it. civil disorder.
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And as you know, many lives were lost and millions of dollars of property destroyed.
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It was a very important. [Bauer] Those were my white years.
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Yeah, I was a regular National Missions in
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Detroit. [Wilmore] This was the
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beginning of a
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radicalization of, I think you could say, of the black underclass.
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As the civil rights
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movement did not appear to
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them to produce the kind of
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results that were promised. I think that is what it really boiled down to.
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In the south, it did produce desegregated
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lunch counters and some desegregated schools like Little Rock,
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but in the north, it didn't. It hardly
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reached the ghetto. [Bauer] right. Right.
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[Wilmore] King found it extremely difficult that year to have the kind of victories in Chicago
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and
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Cleveland, elsewhere in the north that he was able to have in Atlanta and Birmingham.
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Albany and Selma.
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So the
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response was
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radical
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kind of folks, reaction of the people who lived in the ghetto.
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And the result was great civil disorder that led to
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the organization, as you know, the
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President's Commission on Civil Disorder, the so-called Koerner
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Commission, which made the report that our
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society had developedin to two separate
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societies, one black and one white. And the central government had to
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take the responsibility for doing something about
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this, or we were in for an even greater challenge.
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[Bauer] In terms of the church's
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response, you describe
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the earliest days
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of the entire staff of the Board of Christian Education and the Board of
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National Missions were working together. My sense. [Wilmore] And COEMAR [Commission on Ecumenical Mission and Relations] came into it, I should
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say because missionaries on
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furlough, [Bauer] That's right. [Wilmore] were encouraged to go to Hattiesburg,
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and were
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also involved in other aspects of the program.
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So. So all three Boards were collaborating. [Bauer] Alright.
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But now, by the time you get to nineteen sixty, the riots in sixty seven in
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Detroit, for example, where which is that point was where I was
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working, my sense was that by that
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time a good deal
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of initiative or power or money or
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something was in the National Missions
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track rather than in a I guess it
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was still CORAR at that point, wasn't it. [Wilmore] Probably Council on Church and Race
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by that time. [Bauer] Right.
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But, you know, maybe out of turn if
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off the question is Was there? Was there? and ]Wilmore] his
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own very strong unit, as you know. [Bauer] Oh
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yeah. [Wilmore] He had responsibilities almost everything
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was going on the
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cities as far as the cities were concerned.
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So that, the decisions were
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made on a day by day basis whether his people or my
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people would be in charge of any
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particular aspect of the work and
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more often it was his because he had more people. And, we were more narrowly
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focused on the problem of staying in touch
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with King and
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events within SCLC [Southern Christian Leadership Conference] Oscar McCloud [McCloud, James Oscar], for
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example, came on board our staff. He had been assigned for a short time
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to the SCLC headquarters at Langdon
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or
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also
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COCAR was given responsibility. No COCAR took responsibility for working very
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closely in support of
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the National Conference of Black Churchmen, which was organized
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during that term period. And
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IFCO. Interfaith. What was it? [Bauer] Interfaith
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Council of Community Organizations.
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Interfaith Foundation
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and
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[Wilmore] so we had
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a more narrow
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focus for our thing than the Board of National Missions had.
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But I think the Board thought that we were collaborating
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in the general outreach of the United Presbyterian
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Church in that period.
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[Bauer] So. You're.
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One of the characteristics of crisis
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response that is emerging is
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that for the church to respond to social, political and economic crisis, there has to be
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People inside the
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church, who in fact, are in touch
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with, on an intimate kind of basis, the people who are the
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movers in the world. And, in a sense pro
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Karla's, you were quite self-consciously trying to play that
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role at this point on behalf of the church. [Wilmore] Yeah.
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[Bauer] That is a much misunderstood role
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among pastors and laypeople, who often
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only see the church
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in terms of church itself. So, I am interested to hear you
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describe your role that
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way. [Wilmore] And, I think Board of National Missions staff, people like
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David Ramage [Ramage, David, Jr. Exec. Dir. Division of Strategy and Evangelism] and Bryant George were very closely in
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touch with people like Saul Alinsky. The Industrial Areas
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Foundation and in touch
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with the A. Philip Randolph
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of
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Institute.
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The United Automobile Workers. Other movements
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and organizations outside of the
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church that were making very important
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decisions during that period in terms of social and
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economic policy for the nation. For example I think one of the
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responses to the crisis of the period was the
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organization of program for the Self-Development of
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People, which came out of COCAR.
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Also the legal defense fund which
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came out of COCAR.
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And, I think, both of those programs reflected the
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close
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relationship between members of the staff of COCAR and the
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Board of National Missions. As you say, people within the church to people outside
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of the church, who were involved
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in, happened to design, execute Social, economic, political
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policy.
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Both of those were important responses to the
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crisis, the program for the Self-Development of
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People. Well, I forgot to
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mention the third. PEDCO, Presbyterian Economic Development Corporation, which
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also came out of COCAR. When I say came out of COCAR, I mean
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these things were discussed in COCAR and were thought of as extensions or
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spinoffs from the major
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race program of the church, that
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was housed within the Council on Church and Race. [Bauer] That is where they
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were terminated?
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Tell me about anything particular note about S.D.O.P.?
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either
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philosophically, programmatically,
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about how that came into existence?[Wilmore] What? Oh, Self development of People.
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I don't
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remember too much about that move out from under me
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early retirement.As I recall there was
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strong contribution into the
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conceptualisation that by COEMAR, because it was not only to
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serve the needs of people within the United States but
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also
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people abroad. As you recall it began very
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early to make resources available
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to Firestone
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organizations in
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Latin America. I don't
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remember what date Self-Development came along. I guess it was preceded
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by
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Presbyterian Economic Development Corporation, was it? [Bauer] I think so . PEDCO was the
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first
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one
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[Wilmore] What. Seems to me that Self-Development may have come along the
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seventies. [Bauer] Yeah. Someplace along in there.
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place, But
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In your
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Were you are USA or a UPNA? [United Presbyterian Church of North America] background? [Wilmore] USA.
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back
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us
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We are doing fine.
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[Bauer] Did you feel when you talked about SDOP, you said that COEMAR had a strong part
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in the conceptualization.
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Have you felt in
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your work a tension between
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the U.P.N.A. and U.S.A.
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folks in attitudes or
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between the COEMAR domestic
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folks sometimes? have things with the same.
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I mean [Wilmore] Yes, I felt some tensions between the
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Board of National Missions and Board of Christian Education, and then Board of
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National Missions and
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COEMAR. I think those were inevitable given
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the
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distinctive mandates that each of those
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units carried and yet
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the necessity for their collaborating
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in general response of the church to the crisis of the
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nation. Incidentally the crisis of the nation was a term used by the National Council
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of Churches during the sixty's to
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underscore the urgency of church's
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call
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to become involved in what was going on.
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And, as you look at the crisis in the nation's
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documents, I think you will be
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you will see some of the most
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incisive and
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thoughtful analysis of the national
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situation that were available in that era. And, I think those documents reveal
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in a very effective way what the church
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understood the crisis to be like and what the church understood the response
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that was
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necessary to be made. The
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Crisis in the Nation, the documents came out of the N.C.C.
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at that time. And, they
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really are very helpful documents
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So, yeah I saw that I saw
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some tensions,
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competition
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interagency strife going on, but it never
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amounted a great deal. I don't think it ever became disruptive to
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what we were trying to do together. But, there was some of that jockeying for
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position within COCAR, even, because COCAR
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had within its membership representatives of all of these agencies,
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these major Boards. and all of the
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staff executives
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Morrison [Morrison, William A.] , Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] , John Coventry Smith and the Stated Clerk [Blake, Eugene Carson]
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had ex-officio positions in COCAR and
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attended all of the meetings. So it was almost like the General Assembly
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Mission Council in the terms of the kind of power it brought
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together around the table at its regular meetings. At the
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one point there, I suppose, it was the most powerful
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instrument in our church. [Bauer] That's a critical thing because
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the organization of seventy-two did away. [Wilmore] Did away. [Bauer] with that kind of concentration of
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power. The only place that comes together is the
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Mission Council. And there, it is not
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focused. [Wilmore] Just it was focused in this
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instance in response to a
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crisis. [Bauer] Yep. Yep. [Wilmore] It was dissolved before the
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crisis dissolved.
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Because I guess mounting
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pressures from the denomination, following the Angela
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Davis crisis, which is another one we haven't talked about.
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[Bauer] Yeah, we want to talk about that. [Wilmore] Nineteen seventy-one, seventy-
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two, wasn't it?
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I guess it was seventy, seventy-one. [Bauer] Well, let's see. When was the Rochester Assembly? [1971].
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I think it was a little bit earlier than that, because seventy-two the whole reorganization was passed.
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I'm sure it was before then. [Wilmore] Well, yeah. I'm saying
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was seventy one seventy seventy one, wasn't sixty-nine.
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[Bauer] I don't know.[Wilmore] I think so. That was early seventies.
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[Bauer] All right. [Wilmore] Rochester Assembly must have been either
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seventy or seventy-one. It was the Dallas Assembly
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that was sixty-nine. [1969 Assembly was held in San Antonio, TX.] That was the former Assembly
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that time. That was another crisis, the Black Manifesto crisis of nineteen sixty-nine.
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[Bauer] Let's talk about that one first, and then we will go to Angela Davis. [Wilmore] OK very quickly.
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That, that Black Manifesto crisis came about as
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the result of effort on the part of IFCO under the leadership of Lucius
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Walker. [American Baptist. Executive Director, Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization]
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[Bauer] Oh, year. I forgot about Lucius Walker.
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[Wilmore] to provoke some kind of grassroots response to
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the crisis. Some kind of response in the black community. And, it was
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felt by the National
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Conference in Detroit would bring together grassroots leaders from the
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northern ghettoes particularly. Not so concerned about the South. That was King's bailiwick,
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so to speak. But to bring together grass roots, the new grass roots leadership of the
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Northern ghettoes to begin to make
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some hard decisions about next
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steps and the struggle for racial
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justice in the north. So this was a
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perfect forum for James Forman,
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and the young militants
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of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee [S.N.C.C.]
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which was then in decline to
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come forward take center
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seats. Forman did it with a manifesto
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statement, which he shared with me and with other churchmen before it
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was delivered to the Assembly.
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I don't know if it. I mean delivered to
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the Detroit conference. It
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was essentially a call
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for the
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redevelopment of the black
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community around a black
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consciousness
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agenda, to strengthen
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the indigenous institutions in the black
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community and move forward in a more forthright
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way
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to
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emphasize racial
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justice and liberation.
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It had in its
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preface or in its
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what do you call that called
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preface to the manifesto the
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introduction to the manifesto. There is a strong Marxist oriented
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statement. And, it was that
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Marxist ideologically-oriented
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preface that caused the great hue and cry. Plus,
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the fact that the manifesto called
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for, what was it? Five hundred million
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dollars from the white churches and synagogues.
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And Forman dramatized
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that demand by marching down the aisle of Riverside
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Church in April 1969 to deliver the manifesto
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to Ernest Campbell [Campbell, Ernest T.] and the officers of that
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church. As
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this was repeated across the country in other
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churches, a tremendous reaction began to build
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up in the white
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church.
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The
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manifesto was rejected by a number of individuals denominations
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although it got a good hearing in a number,
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in the N.C.C. and in our own church.
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And, in a general way, the response to the
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manifesto was indirect by the white churches so that the program for
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the Self-Development of People, for example, was a kind of indirect response to the
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demands of the manifesto on the part of the United Presbyterian Church. I think the same thing can be said
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for the program. I forget the name of it:
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Reconciliation or something
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like that of the American Baptist churches, and other denominations. Fund
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for Reconciliation. Other denominations came through with a kind of
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backhanded underhanded way of responding rather [Bauer] right. [Wilmore] than to actually respond.
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[Bauer] Wanted to respond to the issues, but not his way. [Wilmore] That's right
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But behind
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that response, which I think in
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some ways, was a sincere effort to
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to
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meet the crisis, which was perceived as
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being an authentic one was a further build
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up of reactionary
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churchmembers against
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the whole citadel of church race
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relations, the involvement of the
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church in the civil rights
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movement. I think that was what was
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expressed finally at the time of the
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Angela Davis crisis. That sort of broke the back
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of that reactionary group that had been building
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up for years. And they said, enough is enough! at that
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point and then began
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to
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to take
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reprisals in some sense of those who were involved. My job was
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called for by the Laymen's
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Council and they began to
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make sure that some kind of radical
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restructuring would come about and prevent this kind of thing from happening again at the national level.
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and prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
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a little more. You
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started out way back with
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the Institute of Race
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Relations where you
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said the issue was attitudinal change in the white
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community. Then later on we
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get in a the sense of response
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to King's non-violent protest
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and
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we get to Forman we're talking. Well, you mentioned IFCA. more
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activist stance and all that.
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[Wilmore] We
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are talking about increasing radicalization of the black movement from nineteen fifty five
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through nineteen sixty-nine. [Bauer] OK. What about the church's response, do you think?
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[Wilmore] I think the church's got along fairly well with all of
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that until the Angela Davis crisis. [Bauer] Even the
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economic
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development. [Wilmore] Yes even bi-consciousness. because I think our General
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Assembly recognized an on pronouncement the
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legitimacy of the black powere position,
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which came out in nineteen sixty-
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six and sixty-seven. I think one of our
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General Assemblies
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actually recognized that
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blacks had a right to call for black power and that black power did not necessarily mean violence.
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It meant a realistic assessment of what it took to bring
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about fundamental change in American society.
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And that whites should not by frightened by this term, but
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should work with blacks to help
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them gain the kind of economic and political clout that could make a difference.
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So the church is brought
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along fairly well. There was increasing resistance.
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after nineteen sixty-six.
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But, I
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think
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one would have to say
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that COCAR was still
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recognized as having
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unusual powers and
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unusual investment of
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resources on the part of the church to accomplish something
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in behalf of the whole church by moving
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out on the farthest edges of the drive against
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racism and oppression in society.
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says
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That's why it was created in nineteen sixty-three
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to be that vanguard. And, I think the church continued to look to it to play that
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function right up to, through the ninety seventies.
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It has been recently given a new mandate, you know, which puts it
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in a little different posture, but I think
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the intention of the new mandate is to try to
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recapture some of that early
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prestige and importance is attributed
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to the Council on
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Church and Race when it was first conceived.
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Some of that was lost in other words you know nineteen seventy-
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two, seventy-three.
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plus
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[Bauer] Okay. Let's talk about Angela a little bit. [Wilmore] Okay. The Angela Davis
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crisis was a
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result of the, of an allocation from the Legal Defense Fund
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which COCAR had responsibility for.
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That was contested
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by white Presbyterians across the
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country, but particularly,
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I guess, in California, although I am not sure about that.
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Because the acts. The request originated
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in California. Recall that? [Bauer] Yes. [Wilmore] The Presbyterian Church
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in Marin City [St. Andrew United Presbyterian] [Bauer] Yeah. What is it? St. Mark's. St. something. [Wilmore] Where
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Eugene Turner was pastor.
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Gene and some of the Presbyterian ministers in that area had
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been very close to developments
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having to do with the incarceration of
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Angela Davis
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nearby. I don't know if that was in San Francisco or maybe in L.A.
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[Bauer] Somebody told me that she was in the Marin
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County courthouse. [Wilmore] Yeah I guess that's
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what it was. That's how that church got involved. The church asked for some
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legal defense
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funds to ensure that she would have a fair trial because
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there was some some doubt of that all over the
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country at that time, mainly because she was an avowed
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Communist. [Bauer] right. [Wilmore] This was a period in
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which every effort was being made to
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smash the radical
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wing of the
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black power movement. The Black Panthers
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for example, and other ghetto organizations were
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the
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object of increasing repression by the
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F.B.I. and other government agencies. So there was
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some concern that this woman
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was a Communist would get fair
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trial. This particular congregation
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requested from the Legal Defense Fund
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ten thousand dollars. The Legal Defense Fund considered
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it and voted the money. And, when it became
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known that the United Presbyterian Church had given Angela Davis'
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attorney the fund that was being raised ten thousand
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dollars for her defense. When it became. When that
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became known all hell broke loose.

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Title: Gayraud Wilmore interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.
Description: Interview conducted as part of Bauer's preparation of the report "An Historical Study of Past Denominational Responses to Social, Political and Economic Crises."
Creator: Bauer, Richard Waldron, 1930- (interviewer)
Wilmore, Gayraud S., 1921- (interviewee)
Date: 1983
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: interviews
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: 1 audio cassette, 1-7/8 ips
Language: English
Topics: Race relations--Religious aspects--Christianity.
Civil rights--United States.
Geographic subjects: North and Central America--United States
Rights status: Contact repository for more information
Physical location: 85-0930; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: R. W. Bauer papers, 1977-1985.
Identifier (local): 85-0930_bauer_wilmore_1983_side2
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:116423

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Gayraud Wilmore interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.

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