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Price H. Gwynn III interviewed by Carol Lytch, June 1998, side 2.
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- speakerFar East then. nd, folks said, well we've got our moderator. And they said can you
- speakerdivert him from
- speakerwherever it is and break into his schedule? You send him to this area with
- speakera check that is just the beginning. Just sort of a good faith
- speakerdown payment. And, say that we're very aware of the problem. We're
- speakersensitive to it. We're going to do more. And give them a word of encouragement.
- speakerSo I got diverted from. I was in Hong Kong less than 24
- speakerhours and then back on the plane again. In fact. out so soon that at customs, when they looked
- speakerat my passport, he said, "You got in here this morning and you're leaving tonight?"
- speakerThey figured it be some drug deal going on there. So they searched every bit of baggage. Anyway.
- speakerGot to Manila. And picked up a guide.
- speakerAnd flew to Baguio which is up in the mountains, normally beautiful resort area, but the
- speakerbeginning of the earthquake not the epicenter, however.
- speakerTransferred to a car. They took us as far as they could. Transferred us to a military
- speakervehicle. Rough country. By this time three days have elapsed. I have a three
- speakerday growth of beard. I've not been to bed.
- speakerWas smart enough put boots before I left, but now they're caked with mud.
- speakerThe shirt it was white is streaked with sweat and mud. So I was a pretty
- speakerbad looking character. And finally the driver said we're getting close to the epicenter where
- speakerthe disaster relief headquarters is located, where the very important
- speakerpersonage in the government is going to receive you. And where you can deliver your message.
- speakerSo I look down at my dishabille and thought
- speakerwell we just do the best we can. He happened to
- speakerspeak some English, which delighted me because I had no Spanish.
- speakerAnd after this long trip. And, we were way back in the middle of nowhere. He was polite
- speakerenough to say. And, by the way, he looked very much like I did. You know that he hadn't been to bed for three days . It did not matter. Yeah. He was streaked with mud. didn't make a bit of difference and bleary-eyed. And
- speakerso he said, "What part of United States are you from?" And I said I'm from the
- speakerSoutheastern quadrant of the United States from an area called the
- speakerCarolinas, North and South Carolina. And, that didn't seem to
- speakercreate any spark of recognition. And. He said, "Are
- speakeryou from a city of some kind?" And I said, Yes. I'm from Charlotte, North Carolina." And
- speakerwithout batting an eye,
- speakerhe said, "Do you know Billy Wireman?". [Wireman, Billy O.] I fell on the floor.
- speakerSmall world, Small world. We became friends after that. There you are in the
- speakerdisaster. The earthquake in the Philippines and then to know
- speakersomeone from the hometown. That's right.
- speakerI'll tell you one other Philippines story. The president of Philippine Senate [Salonga, Jovito] called
- speakerand asked if he could have an audience with me. And, of course my office said absolutely.
- speakerSo we arranged it. He said, "Can you come to my home?" And, the answer to that was yes because he works out of his own home and an
- speakeroffice there. And it's in a sort of a compound. There was right
- speakermuch unrest. And his home is in a cul de sac along with other national
- speakerleaders. And, there is a military guard post at the head of the
- speakercul de sac. So you don't just drive in and.
- speakerWe stopped at the military guard post. Driver and my guide.
- speakerI'm in the backseat alone.
- speakerAnd the conversation is in Spanish. And. The military person windows rolled
- speakerdown and they're back and forth and it's extended. And finally, in
- speakersome impatience, I sort of tap on the shoulder in front of me in the front seat. Say.
- speakerWhat. What's all the conversation about? They say, this guard has instructions to admit the
- speakerhead of a church from the United States, but he does
- speakernot believe you are such a person. And I said. Why? Now,
- speakeryou got to remember the Philippines is 94 percent Catholic. He said, "Because you have no
- speakerrobes. You have no Miter. You have no staff. You don't even have a ring.
- speakerYou're not even wearing a cross. I thought about that for a minute.
- speakerAnd then I said. Tell him it's a poor church.
- speakerHe did. That struck a responsive chord. The guard stuck his head in my
- speakerback window, eyeballed me, saluted, waved us on. He
- speakerrelated to that. He understood what poor meant. Wow! Isn't that incredible! But, you did have a cross, didn't you?
- speakerBut I didn't wear it all the time. I wore it in a service. I'm a layman and
- speakerit's not a part of my dress. I don't wear robes except in a academic procession.
- speakerI don't preach in a robe because it's not my type.
- speakerI have no problem. I'm delighted to participate in a service where everyone else wears one .
- speakerAnd I will do so. A couple times overseas I was told, if you don't wear a
- speakerrobe, it will create comment
- speakerAnd I said don't want anything to detract from the service. So if people expect it, I will wear one. Right.
- speakerThose things are hot and heavy and difficult to carry around. Right So better not.
- speakerIf they're hanging in the robe room behind your pulpit, and all you have to do is put it
- speakeron before you go that's fine.
- speakerJust thinking about that moderatorial year. You heard people reflect back to you what
- speakeryou meant. As a moderator, was there a comment that people made that most gratifying for you to
- speakerhear?
- speakerYea. You got through it without embarrassment. You didn't fall
- speakercompletely on your face. Oh I don't recall anything. Folks are gracious. Just a phrase that goes with it?
- speakerThen the moderator does occupy a unique position. One question I was often
- speakerasked is. To compare and contrast being the CEO of a corporation and being
- speakerthe Moderator. And I could give an answer to that very easily. As CEO, I had
- speaker10 times the power and one tenth the respect.
- speakerModerator has very little power. Of persuasion maybe. Of influence maybe
- speakerbut very little direct power. But immense respect.
- speakerSo it's a complete flip flop from the corporate leadership role.
- speakerYou know as a person out in the Church, I was aware of your wife's illness
- speakerand remembered you and her in my prayers, because we felt it was really
- speakersacrificial for you to be moderator at that time. She is well now isn't
- speakershe? She is. She is She came through all of that. Been eight years ago and she's completely clear the cancer
- speakerso far. Thank-you for asking. That's really wonderful. I just wonder what did your ideas of
- speakerGod changed. Yes. You know it's a
- speakertheological experience.
- speakerWhether you want it to be or not, it is an expanding,
- speakerenvelope-pushing, growing sort of experience.
- speakerI'm almost reluctant to say this because it's very personal, but
- speakerI think that year, with what was said and done prepared me for death.
- speakerI'm supprised to hear that. Oh, I don't anticipate this year. Don't look forward to it, but I'm reconciled.
- speakerI'm ready anytime. What way did it prepare you for death? Well I saw.
- speakerThe manifestation of Christ as the head of the church in a way that I had. Never seen.
- speakerOnce again I had no national experience.
- speakerAnd, most of my. Church quote and unquote.
- speakerHas been White Anglo-Saxon Southern Which is fine. Don't misunderstand me. Those are strong vital vibrant churches but it's
- speakernot the whole story. And to sense that Christ is the head of the Church
- speakerof the entire world. Right. Right.
- speakerAnd. And as long as I am a member of that body, that makes me special. Yes. No way to take that away. Any. A Body that's larger than y
- speakerour beloved local church. Sure, sure. A Church that extends
- speakereven beyond this life. And I can be comfortable in it now in this life or the next. That is a very
- speakersurprising and comforting thought to me. I just had no connection.
- speakerWell I'm 75. Death's never entered your mind to hear it. And I
- speakersuppose when you Kathy became ill is when.
- speakerYou have to think about that. Well. Let me shift
- speakergears a little bit because you're one of the moderators who's
- speakerreally had a life after the moderatorial year.
- speakerA life of service to the National Church. After ... that. There you get hooked. You like the applause, You like the crowd, You like the plaudits. You like the kewpie dolls.
- speakerAnd, of course, there is the year on G.A.C. [General Assembly Council]
- speakerIsn't that true that after that afterwards? iI's a three year three year. The year that you are moderator and then in two successive
- speakeryears. Then I want to hear about that also and the
- speakerBoard of...I mean The Presbyterian Publishing House.
- speakerWell ... Martha Martin [Stated Clerk, Synod of Covenant] who was chair of G.A.C.asked me to serve on the C-7 committee which was investigating
- speakerat the direction of a former Assembly the whole publishing
- speakeractivity, which had been in some disarray, losing money.
- speakerAnd that investigatory committee lasted a year. And we made a report to the
- speakerCouncil, and the Council then to the Assembly to the effect that the publishing should be extracted from
- speakerits various locations in
- speakerthe church, codified, put in one place, given a chance to
- speakersurvive ifit could, and if it couldn't die.
- speakerSo. I was asked to be on that board and then became its chair
- speakerfor its first four years of life. So, that's been the major national service. Now, I've done a
- speakerlot of teaching. And I guess you call it preaching. Its main
- speakerstrength and awkwardness to me. But I'm a strong-laced
- speakersteward advocate. So I'm still in demand for stewardship messages. And I think there's a place for a lay message
- speakerin that regard. We appreciated you coming to Columbia, South Carolina, for.
- speakerIt was really a
- speakerweekend of faith renewal. Not just stewardship but faith renewal. Oh, I remember. Right.
- speakerVisit very well.
- speakerSo I guess the moderator has the option to
- speakerkind of phase out gradually with the years of service on
- speakerG.A.C. But then you've really extended that beyond.
- speakerWith this extra commitment. Right. And I retired from business in order to make the stand for moderator. I tend to say run for
- speakermoderator but people tell me, No you don't run for that office, you stand for it. I don't think there is
- speakera lot of difference.
- speakerSo ah. It's been easy for me to continue to be involved.
- speakerLet me get to my big question. And this is at the end of my question. I'm going to ask you in a minute w
- speakerhat I missed. But, as you think about being moderator and your experience in church after moderator,
- speakerWhat does the church need to learn from that? Is there a learning that we can hold on to? Are y
- speakerou asking me what does the church need to learn from my year? Yes. If you think about a moderator experiencing that responsibility and honor, traveling
- speakerthroughout all of our churches to the Far East. Is there something that is happening in the Church now that your experience addresses? Well, you know, we wallow a lot in
- speakerour own dissatisfactions and disagreement. A part of that is the
- speakernature of our politics. The way to correct it is to have a bishop, but that's
- speakerpretty serious correction for us. We
- speakerReformed types sort of bridle at that possibility and so I've I've
- speakercome to appreciate our politicy more than I ever did before. As
- speakera businessman, it tended to make me inpatient and to irritate me and say why can't these folks get on and? Make a decision. Make their decisions, get
- speakertheir act together. Let's go.
- speakerAnd that's just not possible in
- speakerour set of circumstances. I think in a way we tend to overreact.
- speakerWe have an innate fear of any sort of concentration of power. And
- speakerso we tend to divide it up into so many pockets that it makes it almost impossible to function, but not quite.
- speakerWe manage to do it somehow. So
- speakerit's a fascinating sort of relationship. And
- speakermaybe now that I'm retired and have more time and not quite so much in a hurry I can appreciate it more than
- speakerI did than and so. I've worked on the committee 18 right now which is the Arthur
- speakerHenderson Committe to review the General Assembly. We'll report
- speakernext year. And. It's an interesting group.
- speakerBut we have group we have people on the Committee of Eighteen, which is reviewing the General Assembly,
- speakerwho've never been to one because that's kind of the way we work as Presbyterians.
- speakerWell. That would hardly happen in a political or
- speakerbusiness context or almost anything else. So, it means you've got to be experts when you're in a business context. When you're in
- speakeryour church, you are inclusive, exactly of all perspectives. But, it means you
- speakerreally got to start from ground zero. OK. You can't take anything for
- speakergranted. You can't begin in midstream. But.
- speakerAnd that's not a profuound answer to your question at all.
- speakerWell I think it's very helpful that you keep referring back to a
- speakerbusiness perspective and a nonpolitical
- speakerchurch perspective because that's where most people are
- speakercoming from. And I think people who
- speakerare so used to the politics of the church need to be reminded of why their actions
- speakermay be puzzling to people who spend their lives in.
- speakerYet, now the church is not a business and should not be run like one. Now certain aspects of it
- speakershould be businesslike in the way they handle the money for instance. That sort of thing.
- speakerIt should be accountable ,have an audit trail. Etc. But I'm not I'm
- speakernot saying that the church should be run like a business. It shouldn't. It come from a different
- speakerperspective entirely. And yet, the church should understand the puzzlement of b
- speakerusiness people in the way that it operates. What is.... It's misunderstanding that develope when we don't move so quickly. When we don't take decisive
- speakeraction because we're trying to be inclusive. That's right. It's one of the reasons I suppose that I fit right into this publishing operation
- speakerbecause.
- speakerIt's your business. It is a tiny enclave in the Presbyterian Church, that
- speakeris a business in the sense that it must create its own revenues. It does
- speakerthat by designing producing selling and collecting for a product. Has no
- speakeraccess to Mission dollars. Has no access to unified funds, gets no per cap. [Per capita] Gets
- speakernot a penny from congregations. So. If it doesn't create its own top line.
- speakerIt's not going to be able to pay the folks at work there. And so from that
- speakerstandpoint, it has lots and lots and lots of characteristics of a business and lends
- speakeritself to being run like one. And, that was my bag. That's right! You could help there.
- speakerThat's been a real success story. As I understand it, people are really pleased how that's turned around. In academic circles, it's a reputable press.
- speakerThe people that are pleased are people that don't read everything we produce. If you read
- speakerevery book we put out .It's true. Not everything but, but it's got credibility in academic circles. Well, I appreciate that.
- speakerIt's very important really to have it. Well,
- speakerI have come to the end of my questions. What I would like to know is what I
- speakerforgot to ask you? Or, what I didn't know to ask you. Well, I don't know that you've forgotten anything or didn't know. Well,
- speakerI brought a couple of
- speakerstories of maybe humorous content that may be of some value.
- speakerYea I want to hear about those. First.
- speakerPeople are very good about advising you what kind of year to expect. Advise
- speakeryou about traveling, advise you about clothing. Advise you about how do you
- speakerdeal with middle governing bodies, all sorts of information. Nobody said a thing to me.
- speakerNot one word of warning about the mail. M-A-I-L. Now.
- speakerIf you'll think about it for just a moment, if one Presbyterian out of a hundred writes
- speakerto the new moderator. You know a note of congratulations or an invitation to speak or
- speakerto recommend someone for appointment or to fuss about some
- speakeractivity or to present an idea. Whatever the reason, even one out of 100 hundred writes, that's
- speaker30,000 pieces of mail. Now I didn't get 30,000, but I got thousands. Unbelievable.
- speakerIt got so voluminous that
- speakerthe mailman couldn't get it in the box. We live here in Charlotte out from town.
- speakerAnd the box is down at the paved road several hundred feet from the house. And, it's pretty good size
- speakerbigger than a bread box. One Saturday morning. I just have to be home. And I saw him
- speakertrudging up the drive with this big gray sack of mail over his shoulder and a
- speakerscowl on his face. And, I thought, well, I've got to step out and, at least, tell
- speakerhim what's happened. So I stepped out on the front porch and.
- speakerHe's a he's a barrel chested tremendous man. He could be a linebacker in the NFL.
- speakerAnd he walked up to me and took his stiff forefinger and he jabbed me in the shoulder and dumped that bag of maildown at my feet. And, he
- speakersaid , "Tell me something, Price. That's way talk down here in North Carolina. tell me something Price." He said, "Are you going to run this new religion you started out of your house?" Boy,
- speakerthat was a temptation I simply could not resist. So I took my stiff
- speakerforefinger and punched him in his shoulder and I said let me tell you something, Friend ... I said
- speakerI'm not only going out of my house but there's a check in every one of those letters. You
- speakerlose the first letter and I'm on your case big time." Well he turned pale, and he
- speakerstepped back off the front porch, down in the grass. And, he looked heaven and said, "
- speakerWhy my route, Lord?" A Kairos moment. A crisis for your mailman. Yeah, a crisis for the mailman. We've
- speakerTalked about it. One other story or a couple.
- speakerAnd you can splice these in anywhere you want them if you want them at all.
- speakerI run for exercise. Jog is a better word, Did it this morning. I
- speakerran with you once when we were in Chicago. Yep. I recall. We ran through that park.
- speakerWe did and
- speakerthere were deer. It was so beautiful. In the fall, right? About a
- speakermonth after the moderatorial election, I was running a mile or two from home when
- speakera woman working in her front yard saw me coming down the street. And, she just stepped out
- speakeracross the curb, held up her hand for me to stop which I did.
- speakerShe said. I know who you are. She said, "You're that Presbyterian elder to get elected
- speakerhead of the church." She said, "I was married to a Presbyterian elder once, and it was
- speakerabsolutely awful." She said he got so rigid and
- speakerfixed in his ways I had to get rid of him, divorced him and got myself another husband.
- speakerBut it cost me six years of my life." She said, "Will you take your wife a message
- speakerfrom me?" I said, "Yes ma'am." Now those are the first words I had spoken.
- speakerAnd. She said, "Will you tell your wife that there are people out here who sympathize and
- speakerempathize with her at this time trial at this time of her great need?"
- speakerAnd, I say, "Yes, ma'am, I'll do that.
- speakerAnd, I know exactly how you feel." She bristled and said, "How could you know
- speakerhow I feel?" I said, "Because I'm. married
- speakerto a Presbyterian elder."
- speakerAH AH very good. Touche! OK.
- speakerWhat Whatever you. No no. Tell another.
- speakerWell. I was invited to an ecumenical conference of bishops in Phoenix. And, for
- speakerobvious reasonsf not many Reformed folk. In that neither. And, after
- speakermy remarks, the questions centered around the issues facing our church in
- speakerthat particular year. And most of those questions dealt with the ordination of
- speakerhomosexuals or with the report on human sexuality which was coming forward
- speakeror with the abortion matter. And after several minutes of that, the
- speakerCatholic bishop, who was obviously the senior attendee. In fact, he was a grand gentelman with solid white hair, almost regal in his apperance. He asked
- speakerme a question. He said.
- speakerWould the moderator appreciate a word of advice? And I said, Sir I would treasure any such
- speakerword that you would be willing to share with me." And, he said, "
- speakerIt's my considered opinion
- speakerthat you Presbyterians are going to stay in trouble until you get out of the pelvic zone. That's been repeated. That is where that phrase comes from. That was from Phoenix. That's
- speakerThat's great. That is Certainly been Injuring label. Yes right.
- speakerYou want one other. Yes.
- speakerGrand Canyon Presbytery started six new churches all at one time. Amazing project.
- speakerIt really is. Where is that? In Colorado?
- speakerIt's Arizona Arizona. Northern. Arizona I met with the presbytery
- speakerCommittee and with the six new ministers in a double wide on
- speakerone of the sites of the new churches. Lots of Presbyterians don't even know what a double-wide is.
- speakerOh, what is that? It's it's two motor homes pulled together.
- speakerThe site looked absolutely desolate to me. It was arid, no trees. I couldn't
- speakersee a building in any direction. So I asked the minister for that particular
- speakerlocation, "Where are you going to get members?" He laughed at my disbelief.
- speakerAnd said. I wish you could come back here five years from now. He said, "Everywhere you
- speakerlook, they would be townhouses, apartments, and condos." We're growing that fast.
- speakerWe'll have a congregation of 500 people and a sanctuary under construction.
- speakerThen, he added this. Evangelism out here. Remember, this is Arizona is a lot
- speakertougher, than back East in a place like North Carolina." Well, I wasn't about to let that pass without being challenged, So,
- speakerI questioned him on it and he replied with a grin he said. "Well
- speakeryou see the winters out here are so mild and delightful that
- speakerheaven loses some of its appeal. And,
- speakerif those same people survive the summer heat that follows, we can't scare them wqith hell."
- speakerSo, you conceded. I conceded. You got to be right. This is great. Keep
- speakergoing. Price, if you have. I think these are gems. Well it may or
- speakermay not be. The story your other stories are the gold. You can't
- speakerkeep us from the gold. I was asked to speak to the elders association of the PCK. That's
- speakera Presbyterian Church of Korea. Now, this is the elders association.
- speakerNow. In talking with the steering committee for the program.
- speakerOne of them volunteered the fact that they never asked a U.S. moderator to speak to them before.
- speakerI was curious as to why me? Why was I the first? And, what
- speakerwas the reason for that? And he said, "Our Book of Order, like yours,
- speakerprovides the possibility for an elder to be elected to that post, but in the
- speakerhundred year history of our church, it has never happened. Frankly, we
- speakerjust wanted to see what an elder moderator looked like."
- speakerSo if you were feeling good about yourself, that will bring you back. Back to Earth in a hurry. On
- speakerEarth.
- speakerAnother one on Korea. I preached in Mok-Po, which is a coastal city in
- speakerSouth Korea of course. I mentioned In-Suk Kim earlier in our conversation.
- speakerHe was my mentor, guide and travelling companion. And,
- speakerI can't say enough good things about him and Victor [Victor Makari] as well. The Mok-po church is full.
- speakerWhen the time came for the sermon, I started to mount the steps that
- speakerlead up to an elevated pulpit. And suddenly from the front row, came In-Suk's
- speakeranguished hissing whisper, "Shoes. Shoes."
- speakerI knew what he meant. To enter that pulpit wearing shoes would be a desecration.
- speakerOh my! They had to come off. You know overseas travelers are always
- speakeradvised not to wear flip flops. Don't wear loafers.
- speakerDon't wear that kind of shoes. So I had on cordovan wingtips, double knot.
- speakerI couldn't get them over the heel. Finally I had to sit down on the pulpit steps, unknots. knots. Unloosed the laces. Take off one shoe at a time.
- speakerAnd, the congregation was deathly quiet, there was not one sound.
- speakerAnd it felt like an eternity to get those two shoes off.
- speakerFinally I delivered the message. And returned to the shoes at the bottom of the steps, where
- speakerI recovered them and just decided to sit down and reverse the process. So I sat on the steps and
- speakerput the shoes back on. And, the minute I started to do that the congregation
- speakererupted into laughter.
- speakerI was chosen. Later, I asked In-Suk
- speakerI said, "In America people laugh when you make a stupid faux pas. In Korea,
- speakerthey laugh afterwards. Why? "When
- speakeryou made the mistake, it was really funny. But, they didn't
- speakerknow what kind of person you were. After having heard you preach, they
- speakerfelt that you were enough of a friend that they could relax with you.
- speakerYou see we Koreans never laugh at strangers.
- speakerWhat a marvelous tradition. Would that we Americans would be equally considerate. I've never forgotten that story. I'm
- speakerout of stories. Why don't we end here.
