Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.

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[Blake] Too. It was the staff.
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I don't know well you know Spike [Spike, Robert Warren, Executive Director, N.C.C., Cmm. on Religion and Race] or did you? [Bauer] I knew who he was
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[Blake] And some of his troubles?
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[Bauer] Oh yes. [Blake] There were troubles, but he was
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really a very important man in this whole
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thing. He made
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me, in fact in
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race by getting me
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mixed up with the White House
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and State. As the district attorney what do you want to call them?
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[Bauer] Attorney General? [Blake] Yeah.
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Well this year was of
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course in Kennedy administration
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before the year that he was killed later which is sixty three. I guess.
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[Bauer] Yes I think was killed in sixty-three. [Blake] Well this happened in November
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before that. ]Bauer] right.
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[Blake] And that whole
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thing was a a
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new movement.
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Jean for example with Guthrie Speers [Speers, T. Guthrie, Jr.]
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and her black friends in this
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town all got up at three o'clock in the morning and got on a train and went to
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Washington that morning.
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So it was it was growing. I mean there wasn't any question
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of you know. Now, everybody didn't like it.
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But everybody knew that something was
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happening, and then people were terribly
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frightened but Kennedy says.
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He played it right he said you are very welcome to
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come. This capital belongs to all the
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people. And then, they thought there going to be
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riots and would have been if somebody like Nixon had
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been president. But, as it was, it was Kennedy
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and so by the middle of the morning, they said,
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this is more like a Sunday school picnic
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than anything. That is one of the quotes.
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[Bauer] That was the famous March on Washington. [Blake] That was the March on
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Washington of sixty-three. And
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that
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happens
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Phil Randolph was black, who was the chairman. He was
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the head of the Pullman
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Car Porters Union. [Bauer] Oh, yes. [Blake] And Bayard Rustin was his right hand who did things.
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Bayard Rustin is an
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operator was and
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is. I sat next to all
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during the parade and
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speeches to Walter Reuther, who was one of the
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other of us that were on, that were in the march
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Well, Spike got me to be one of the people in the March. He just
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managed that from the point of the
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National Council of Churches. But also, we
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had the archbishop of
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Washington [O'Boyle, Patrick] was
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there. He wasn't one of the seven, but he was
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there. And he, fortunately for us, did some of his homework and read some
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of the papers.
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And, he exerted censorship on one of the speeches that was going to be
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made, I won't
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say who, but and I
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remember that I.
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The bishop I had
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known a little bit. He
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said look whatever you
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and I guess it was Walter. Whatever you
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and Walter
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Reuther agree on the wording of this as
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against what they've written down the line. we are It was the first I've ever had
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a Roman Catholic archbishop deputize
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or write for me.
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so that was the kind of a situation it was. [Bauer] right.
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Wan't me to do it?
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it
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I got you talking here.
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That
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was really the first Mammoth
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the civil
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rights demonstration was it
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not? I mean. Well, at least
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in
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Washington. [Blake] Well, the March on Washington
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was right out
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of the television show of the violence in Alabama.
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You see that's. And by the
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time five months had passed, we were operating. I mean.
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And it was. we were
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all the church leaders, from the rest of
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us. We were all invited by Kennedy back to the White House immediately
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afterwards. It was that kind of. We weren't pushing
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our way in. We
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were being helpful. [Bauer] Because
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that could have been a
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huge mob scene. [Blake] Oh, It could have been.
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Would be now probably.
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of reactions. I don't know. But any case that was that was
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the kind. I'm trying to give you some of the feeling of it is a bit
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yes. and
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Irwin Miller [Miller, Joseph Irwin] is one of the great
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men, certainly one of the great laymen
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of the church, and very
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unusal.
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This is a Presbyterian thing isn't it. So you can't use him.
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[Bauer] Well. One of the questions always that we have keep in mind
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in this project is to what degree did
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things become
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ecumenical? [Blake] they did right immediately
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there! [Bauer] In this one, they immediately become ecumenical. [Blake] Yeah.
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We were the first ones to act because we were meeting in the Assembly. [Bauer] That's right.
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[Blake] I mean. And so, the. That one. That one worked that
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way.
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[Bauer] The commission. Then the
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Presbyterians in the
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Board of created this Commission on Religion and Race
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about that time and connected to the Board of Christian
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Education. [Blake] That was a big fight.
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Bill Morrison [Morrison, William A.] was by this time the General Secretary.
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Bill was not very able
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but he was very jealous
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of its perogatives and power.
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I think
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Payne [Payne, Paul C.] could have shot himself for having resigned early. He believed in it on
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principle. But
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Payne quit at sixty-four
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His experience was that all of
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his staff members began to go
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bad about that ime. [Bauer] About that time.
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So he quit.
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Well was Neigh [Neigh, Kenneth Glenn] . Let's see. I am trying to
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think when Ken Neigh went. He must. [Blake] He came on at the
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time that Morrison came on. [Bauer] Right. [Blake] So.
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[Bauer] By that time then you had added a whole new cast of characters.
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Glenn Moore [Moore, Glenn W.] was [Blake] Secretary [Bauer] was
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still Secretary. [Blake] And, I was still
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Stated Clerk.
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And I'm not sure whether
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I
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think Glenn did want to be
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a chairman of that
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staff. And, I think that was one of the issues.
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I wasn't sure that he should be.
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I think he did, but I don't even remember
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that but I know that there was an
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issue between us before
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the end of things.
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He thought that
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the General Council with a Secretary of the General Council should
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be head of the staff group that were in that.
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Well. My
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own interpretation was look we are the Presbyterians.
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And, I am the Permanent Officer of the Presbyterians. And, I operated
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that way. That, that was the understanding. [Bauer] Right. [Blake] And you
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do operate some way, I mean,
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you [Bauer] Yes. [Blake] You have to decide what it seems the way to
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do
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it. The interesting thing
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was. I was treated very soon,
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middle fifty's on
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as if I were
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the Presbyterian spokesman.
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I remember one of the most embarrassing times I ever had over
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it. At the White House, a group in Eisenhower's
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time, a group of church leaders. I was sitting in the back
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with our moderator, who I forgot who
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it was, but he was brand new. Ike was
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sitting up in the front. He saw me in the back of the room, sent down for me to come
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up. Well, i felt bad. you know. [Bauer] Yes. [Blake] I was in the
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wrong position to do it. [Bauer] That's right. With a moderator.
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[Blake] He didn't know enough about Presbyterianism to know any different.
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That kind of thing is part of
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the
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I. Let's look at
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the crises. We want to get done all these crises. One of them is race, wasn't it? [Bauer] Right.
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[Blake] I started with that one incident down in Carolina with the
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bail. [Bauer] Right. That's important. [Blake] and then the March on
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Washington and the money for Religion and Race in the National Council. [Bauer] All right.
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[Blake] That personally with me, you see,
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became
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the beginning of the fact that a white American could be acceptable in the
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World Council of
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Churches as an
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officer. [Bauer] Ah, ha. [Blake] Now, some of
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my non-friends have said that I planned it that way. [Bauer] I am sure that is right. [Blake] which isn't very good,
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but I'm not that smart. But,
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my arrest and the picture of me getting in the paddy wagon in Baltimore, [Gwynn Oak Amusement Park, July 4, 1963]
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was the beginning of that. That went all over
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the world,
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that picture
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when I was in Enugu before
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the war and Sir Francis Ibiam [Ibiam, Francis Akanu]
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was the governor of eastern Nigeria.
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When he had a luncheon of the governor's palace
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for this is the central committee of the World
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Council and he took some of
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us to luncheon with his
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main people.
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He introduced us. No. This was just a lot of people, as
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far as I was concerned. Then he said, just in case you don't know, old Blake was the
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man
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who got arrested in Baltimore [Gwynn Oak Amusement Park, July 4, 1963] and you saw his
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picture. And all the, all came up and shook hands.
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[Bauer] Isn't that something.
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[Blake] But that's the kind of thing you
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don't know is going
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to happen.You couldn't . [Bauer] You couldn't plan it.
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[Blake] And, the. I've lost my direction
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here
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but
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Oh! it is
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how I gave a press conference in June. That was way this
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was sixty
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three. And, it is always your best friends in the press who ask the hardest
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questions. And, I made a brief
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statement. In the middle of things, I said, We've been saying the right things in the
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church for ever, but we have decided it's time to act. [Bauer] Uh, hum.
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[Blake] George Dugan, who was then the very able pressman at
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the New York Times, and whom I had known for years,
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said, "What, for
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example?" [Bauer] So much for
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rhetoric!" [Blale] And so, fortunately when I went in, one of
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the young men whose name I've forgotten
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now, but a bright young man on our
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staff said, "There is going
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to be a pilgrimage from New York to
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Baltimore on the Fourth of July that CORE [Council on Racial Equality] is running."
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I said, Well, you'd better check it out and see what what
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it means and what they're
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doing. Not having, wanting
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egg on my face at that point, I said, "Well there's going to
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be a CORE demonstration in Baltimore on Fourth of July."
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So as I had said that much,
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I saw I had hit paydirt as far as the press was concerned
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and they were beginning to
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write and so on. After the meeting was
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over, I said to the young man, I said,
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check that one out. I think I've got to be in Baltimore on
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the Fourth of July, and I intended to
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play golf here at Woodwind.
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So I didn't get. And, that was the way that
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went. The whole thing
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is sort of interwoven. You see it
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gets all kinds of . [Bauer] Right. [Blake] Now
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this. Turn it off
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if you will, now. [Resumed] So, it give you a background of the internals
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there. [Bauer] Yes, yes. So that the
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N.C.C. There was some problems in getting
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the N.C.C. committed to the degree that you would have liked. I guess is what you were leading up
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to, in terms of all of that.
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[Blake] Well, the
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N.C.C., I
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think
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from about fifty-four.
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It started in fifty, you know.
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I've got Roswell Barnes [Barnes, Roswell P.]
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was my sponsor. I don't know whether you? [Bauer] The name
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is familiar. [Blake] You don't know Roswell Barnes?
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Well, he was second man of the National Council of Churches,
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a
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Presbyterian. Ex-pastor of Foster
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Dulles, a
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real. He'd operated in Europe
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after the war. Did all kinds of things, that sort of thing. He
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invited me to speak at
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the forty-six, nineteen forty-
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six meeting of the National Council of Churches, out in Seattle.
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And to speak of evangelism, which is not my
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field, but he decided that I could do
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it. And so. He and
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I. He pushed
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me. And he was the, he and Walter Van Kirk
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were the staff
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men who got the visit to
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Russia in nineteen fifty
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five. I don't know whether that is an area that
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you want? No. You don't want that, do you. That was not a
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Presbyterian thing. That was a. [Bauer] It was something else, wasn't it!
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[Blake] The National Council. [Bauer] Right. [Blake]
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because I happen to be chairman of,
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the president of the National Council that year I was chairman of that committee.
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Although Fry [Fry, Franklin Clark. President, Lutheran World Federation] and Sherrill [Sherrill, Henry Knox. Presiding Bishop, Episcopal Church] were both
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on it. [Bauer] What was the
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purpose of that, Gene? [Blake] The purpose was to make way for the Russian
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Orthodox Church ultimately to become part of the World Council.
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They had refused,
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and it was quite clear
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that unless,
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as today, the Americans and the Russians don't get along
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why this U.N. isn't going to amount
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to anything. I mean now. [Bauer] That's right. [Blake] The same thing is happening here.
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[Bauer] Right. [Blake] There. And
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so Walter Van Kirk [Van Kirk, Walter W. , Exec. Dir., Department of International Affairs, N.C.C.] and Roswell Barnes
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really planned
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it for the National Council, but they both were close to Visser 't Hooft [Visser 't Hooft, Willem Adolph, Secretary General, World Council of Churches]
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And, I don't know how much he had to do with it, but
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I know he knew what was going on. [Bauer] right.]
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[Blake] But he didn't, of course, go because it was an American show.
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So we were the
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first westerners
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who ever stayed at the Sovietskaia
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Hotel, which is about a mile
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beyond. If you
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start from the front of
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the Kremlin, with Lenin's tomb on your
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left and go straight down the square or about a mile beyond
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on that street is the Sovietskaia hotel for all the satellite
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people stayed and so
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on. And we were put up
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there and who was our host? This is another
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there was the abbott of the Zagorsk
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Monastery. His name
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is
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Abbot Pimin. [Bauer] Now, we are on!
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Yes. [Blake] And the last time I was in Moscow,
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Jean [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] and I were there together after a Leningrad
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meeting, he invited the two of us
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to luncheon at Prayity.
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[Bauer] I was on a delegation into
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Russia in seventy-five or six or seven.
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I got to meet. [Blake] Yeah. Well
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that I had more. What was What. Well. This would
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be around that time, you see, because I was not married to
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Jean [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] until seventy-four.
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[Bauer] We
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had. The last. We broke the
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fast with Nikodim [Nikodim, Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod] on his last Easter.
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When he died then when the pope was. [Blake] Pope John Paul
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the
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first. [Bauer] Yes. When he was
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inaugurated or whatever that. [Blake] He was there. He died right in his arms, practically.
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I would like to talk about Nikodim, if I we're talking
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about myself because he's one of my great friends.
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I made it my business
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when we did put through the election on the
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Russian Orthodox Church at New Delhi [World Council of Churches, Assembly, New Delhi, India, 19 November - 5 December 1961] and he became an
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executive committee. and I made it my business as the American
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representative, I crossfiled some of the
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other Americans that were there, and made it my business to listen to
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Nikodim. And, Nikodim, I found, was very wise. He
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never said
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anything that would get him into trouble, but
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He was also saying things all the time that is very important for you to
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hear. One of them would be he would
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say to
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you Look boys for the record I better speak against
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this, but I never said anything like that. But, this is what I meant.
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[Bauer] right. What he meant. [Blake] For the record I am
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speaking against it, but go ahead and do what you want. Another time he'd say, "Look, boys!
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you want to do this, I won't be back again. I can't. That kind of thing you got
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to know. [Bauer] He really knew how things. [Blake] When i sent out
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a letter after the Uppsala
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Assembly about the Russians going into
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Czechoslovakia, we had the Czech Brethren ask us to do
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something. M. M. Thomas [Thomas, M. M. [Madathilparampil Mammen]] was the new chairman. and
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I had to decide what to
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do. So we agreed that we would not act immediately but we
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would circulate our member churches in eastern Europe. and ask them what to
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do? Well, the Germans, East
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Germans came back immediately saying do whatever you can and whatever you can, do it
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hard. Didn't hear from Nikodim [Nikodim, Metropolitan of Leningrad and Novgorod]
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Rumanians: Do whatever you want.
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Whatever you think we should do. They
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wouldn't work, wouldn't hold back. Bulgarians: Don't do
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anything. Yugoslavs: Yes and no.
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Hungary: Don't do
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anything. So. But, I hadn't heard from Nikodim.
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Finally about three weeks later I got a word from a mutal friend,
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dropped in to see me. Nikodim sends
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you his greetings
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and in response to your request
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about what to do about the invasion of
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Czechoslovakia, tell Blake when he's in a situation like
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that to do what he has to do, but don't
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ask us. [Bauer] Yes.
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[Blake] That is the kind of relationship
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[Bauer] Gene, can you, can say anything about
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the Restoration Fund.
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You were a pastor at that point? [Blake] The Restoration Fund
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was nineteen forty-eight, wasn't it? [Bauer] Right after the war. [Blake] Yeah.
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and I was pastor at Pasadena. [Pasadena Presbyterian Church]
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We took the
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opportunity to do, to
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raise twice as much as our quota for the
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Restoration Fund, so that we could not
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only do the distant thing but do what we needed to do
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ourselves. I
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think we raised in the church. I'm not sure, my
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figures are not sure, but we were we were at the
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top of the denomination.
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I think we raised thirty-five , forty
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thousand dollars for it.
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But that meant we raised eighty thousand. [Bauer] Yes. right.
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Was there? Was that kind of a
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groundswell of support? People just
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knew that they had to do that? [Blake] I think
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that was just an
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inevitable restoration. How do
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How was those restorations spent? Do you have? [Bauer] I do not have. That is being collected for me.
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[Blake] Well. You ought to look at that, you see, because I have forgotten what
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they thought was restoration. Certainly be
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some help to Korea
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would have made a Great Hour
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Well as are known. Roswell Barnes is the guy
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knew about all of that. but it
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is. I am just getting things mixed
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up that
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went on very
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quickly after World
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War One. Two. So
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we had a lot
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of cleaning up in Europe to
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do. And, it was real the Marshall Plan
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idea. I mean that was. [Bauer] It was
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the churches' side of the Marshall Plan. Right?
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Can you think
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of anything else
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about either McCarthy or
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race
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that you haven't said? It has been very helpful.
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[Blake] I don't. I am trying to
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think. The crises during the years
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between. Well. from fifty four
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on I became a wheel in the World Council of Churches.
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I was elected at the fifty four Assembly in Evanston.
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and I
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was brand new
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in my position. And, my predecessor had never
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done much in the World Council, but I was elected chairman of the Finance Committee
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which was the
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most important thing sbout the American churches in those days. And, I was chair of the
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Finance Committee for
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until New Delhi, fifty-four to sixty-
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one. And, that put me on the executive
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committee and helped.
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We'd already. See I got gooky, See, that's another
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one. forty eight . nineteen forty eight.
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Let it be my
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crisis. I don't know. Maybe has something to do with it
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I had been reading
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Oldham's Christian newsletter "Christendom." I was
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out in the sticks in California, you know. I mean, nobody
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is caring about what
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anybody. There are only two churches that were known practically and that
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was Calvary in San Francisco and [Bauer] Pasadena Pres?
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[Blake] No. No. We
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were not as important. We were better. But,
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The one on Wilshire Boulevard. [Bauer] Immanuel, was it? [Blake] Immanuel. Yeah. Immanuel.
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He was the guy who thought he was running everything. Herbert Booth Smith [Note: 1948 pastor of Immanuel was Paul C. Johnston]
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[Bauer] That's right. [Blake] In any
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case
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[Bauer] Oldham's Christian Newsletter, you said. [Blake] Those
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were the things I was reading.
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I wrote to Bill Pugh [Pugh, William Barrow, Stated Clerk, PCUSA],
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my predecessor as Stated Clerk. Bill I'm going to go
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to Europe this summer. I think something important
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going to happen at Amsterdam in forty-eight. If there is anything I can
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do for you why let me know.
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He had no ecumenical
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budget at that point. He was delighted that somebody would pay his own way to
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go. So he said yes come to
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the meeting of, postwar meeting of the World Presbyterian
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Alliance. And we'll, get you
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in somehow to the Amsterdam
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meeting of the World
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Council. [Bauer] Isn't that something!
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[Blake] So I met Hromadka [Hromadka, Josef Lukl, Evangelical Church of Bohemian Brethren] for the
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first time. I had not known him when he was
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at Princeton. And, I met Barthe,
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who was still a bishop in Hungary.
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You may have met him when you were? [Bauer] No. I have not met him, but I
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certainly know the name.
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[Blake] I am trying to figure out what where you
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were. [Bauer] those were. I was
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still. I graduated from high school in forty-eight, so that
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i was just. [Blake] I didn't mean that. I was trying
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to think of seventy-five. [Bauer] Oh. Seventy-
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five [Blake] O whenever. But never mind.
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What I really tried to get that it is I think
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that it
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is terribly important
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the let me add this. This is
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not particularly for quotes.
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Didn't make any difference.
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but you would know better than to quote it. I started
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out being
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an anti-Buchmanite as at the University when
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President John Grier Hibben [President, Princeton University, 1912-1932] threw Frank Buchman [Buchman, Franklin Nathaniel Daniel] off the campus
speaker
of Princeton University. That would be in
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the
speaker
nineteen
speaker
twenty-seven. The President of Princeton
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University by the way
speaker
is John Grier Hibben, then who
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was
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Jean's [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] uncle. [Bauer] Oh, my.
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[Blake] And Jean and my brother
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Howard he was one of the guys who went off with
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him. And I decided to be an organization man from then on.
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None of this movement stuff
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that is that you have to organize something new every
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time you want to do an idea. You use the
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organization that that was very important to
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me and I was treated like a dog
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by them which
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is. I
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didn't take any move until finally. This is still not quoted,
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[Bauer] Right. [Blake] although it is in print. But I got
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a telegram from Frank
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Buchman. I hadn't broken off with them. They were. They had been my friends.
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I mean. They've used me too. I was a football player. I was important,
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that kind of royalty, you see. Took me up to Lake Mohonk and.
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because I was a Princeton
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football player. [Bauer] Okay. [Blake] Maybe that's right. That is great
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spiritual leadership. So he
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said I have guidance for you. That was their term.
speaker
I have guidance for you to come to New York next

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Title: Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.
Description: Interview conducted as part of Bauer's preparation of the report "An Historical Study of Past Denominational Responses to Social, Political and Economic Crises."
Creator: Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985. (interviewee)
Bauer, Richard Waldron, 1930- (interviewer)
Date: 1983
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: interviews
sound recordings
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: 1 audio cassette : 1-7/8 ips
Language: English
Subject names: United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. General Assembly (194th : 1982 : Hartford, Conn.)
Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985.
Topics: Civil rights--United States.
Vietnam War, 1961-1975.
Geographic subjects: Hartford (Conn.)
North and Central America--United States--Connecticut--Hartford
Rights status: Contact repository for more information
Physical location: ARCHIVES 85-0930; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: R. W. Bauer papers, 1977-1985.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...
Identifier (local): 85-0930_bauer_blake_1983_side2
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:116417

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Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 2.

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