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Eugene Carson Blake interviewed by R. W. Bauer, 1983, side 1.
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- speakerThat if you're willing. Well what are you . How are you going to do this? What I want to do.
- speakerWe have kind of a continuum on this thing, you
- speakerknow, from the initial recognition of the
- speakerproblem. And then there's a process that goes on in
- speakerthe church where people get more and
- speakermore concerned. More people get concerned
- speakerand generally some official body becomes
- speakerinvolved. All right. And, in that period there are some people who are key in getting the
- speakerchurch to recognize there is a crisis.
- speakerThen you get along and to the point where General
- speakerAssembly often does something. Sometimes General Assembly says, "Well, you
- speakerknow. Go off and do something." and you go through a whole other process
- speakerof getting geared up. [Blake speaking] Unless it's prepared ahead of time, General Assembly is too big a body to do
- speakeranymore that's right. [Bauer speaking] So what we want to do
- speakeris talk a little bit about
- speakerhow how things developed. How that matured. When was
- speakerit recognized. Who was involved in recognizing
- speakerit. Who were the people who really
- speakersaid this is something we have to do something. It's that kind of thing. [Blake] Well I can tell the race. Well,
- speakerI won't do it now, but I mean. [Bauer] OK let's start with McCarthy [Senator Joseph McCarthy.] Nobody else
- speakerwas talking about that. All right let's start
- speaker[Blake] When
- speakerI became stated
- speakerClerk, one of the things that I had to do was to read a lot
- speakerof papers including the job description of the
- speakerStated Clerk. [Bauer] And, what year was that,
- speakerGene? [Blake] It was in in fifty-
- speakerone I was forty six years
- speakerold and had been a pastor for eleven years
- speakerin California. Yes. Five years in
- speakerAlbany, assistant pastor three years in New
- speakerYork. That was the
- speakerbackground.
- speakerI read this job
- speakerdescription. And, it said that my job was
- speakerto carry
- speakeron the correspondence of the General Assembly.
- speakerNow, when you have a title
- speakerlike Clerk and that is there. and I think maybe I can downgrade the job
- speakerawful quick. [Bauer] Certainly can. [Blake] But,
- speakerI looked at it myself
- speakerand said, I think that means that if you want to talk to the Presbyterians,
- speakeryou've got to talk to the Stated Clerk.
- speaker[Bauer] All right. [Blake] That was it. All right well
- speakerwhat are the most important things to
- speakertalk about. It was clear by fifty-one, if
- speakerthe ecumenical movement and church and state were the
- speakertwo things. And, I decided I would give
- speakermy time to that. Now, I don't know if
- speakerthis was
- speakernow with that
- speakerthere were the Seven Last Words. You've heard of the Seven Last
- speakerWords? [Bauer] Which
- speakerlist? [Blake] Well, the joke was that it was
- speakerHermann Morse [Morse, H. N. [Hermann Nelson], General Secretary, Board of National Missions, PCUSA] and
- speakerall the colleagues, there were seven of them. [Bauer] Oh, I see. There were seven of
- speakerAll right. [Blake] It was very interesting.
- speakerHermann Morris was
- speakersenior.
- speakerand he stayed senior.
- speakeror yes but he
- speakerdidn't he didn't have the
- speakerposition that made him senior to my work, for example.
- speakeror to Payne [Payne, Paul C., General Secretary, Board of Christian Education, PCUSA]. In fact Payne was senior as
- speakerfar as I was concerned.
- speakerAs far as counting on leadership, Don Hibbard [Hibbard, Donald L., Executive Vice President, Board of Pensions]
- speakerwas the worst. Board of Pensions. [Bauer] Yeah. [Blake] He was all right, but I
- speakermean. He didn't have anything to say that
- speakerwas important. Glenn Moore [Moore, Glenn Warner, Secretary, General Council, PCUSA] and I came east together.
- speakerGlenn Moore is a humble man,
- speakerreally. I mean I am very fond of him. We only had one
- speakerfight which
- speakerwas toward the end of our time. And no fight in matter of fact.
- speakerHe thought that he should be something which I was sure
- speakerI should
- speakerbe but his typical
- speakerthing with relation to me was I never have a decent
- speakeridea but I learned how to recognize one when I
- speakerheard it. Which is, that's all right. That, it was a good
- speakerdeal of him in that way and I used to talk a good
- speakerdeal as we came east as a pair from California, you see, to take
- speakerover the General Council.
- speakerThe General Council, of course, was the executive committee of
- speakerthe Presbyterian or of the Presbyterian Church USA at that time.
- speakerNow. How do you work with
- speakerthat
- speakerthing? They never had
- speakeran executive of the Council
- speakerbefore, like Glenn Moore was. The Stated Clerk did it in his spare
- speakertime. [Bauer] Oh. I didn't know that. [Blake] Oh, yeah. [Bauer] Excuse me. Who was the
- speakerseven? Morse, Payne, Levert, Hibbard, Moore,
- speakerBlake. That is six. [Blake] Well, it must be another. [Bauer]
- speakerSeminary president down at Princeton probably [Mackay, John Alexander]. [Blake] No, no, no, no.
- speakerIt was a four four boards. [Bauer] Who was? Who was? [Blake] I am sure
- speakerJohn Peters. [Peters, John Thompson] John Peters. He was a money raiser. [Bauer] John Thompson Peters.
- speakerright. [Blake] Was that the seventh? [Bauer] Yeah. Okay.
- speaker[Blake] He was a
- speakerdisappointed candidate for Stated Clerk.
- speakertoo. [Bauer] There is always a group of us.
- speakera guy.
- speakerSo I looked at them this way and I
- speakerdidn't see any advantage in downgrading it. And, I knew enough to know that
- speakerthe moderators come and go so fast that it's very difficult for them to
- speakergive leadership.
- speakerThis is the reason when. Now, the biggest thing
- speakerthat happened with regard to McCarthyism in
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church was
- speakerour letter to Presbyterians, which came out. And, I don't have the
- speakerdate, do
- speakeryou know? [Bauer] Not off the top of my head but I sure can find out.
- speaker[Blake] Well, that is something I had thought of, as I was thinking about it. I should be able to
- speakerlook it up. I could find it if
- speakermy eyes were better. But, the letter to Presbyterians.
- speakerLet me just express.
- speakerExplain what it is John Mackay. [ Mackay, John, President of Princeton Theological Seminary] is certainly responsible for it.
- speakerhe he was the
- speakeridea and he offered to draft one.
- speakerAnd, it was at this time
- speakerof the McCarthyism period.
- speakerEverybody was frightened. But, John was never frightened of anything.
- speakerAnd so he wrote the
- speakerfirst draft. And, I made it my business to see that it wasn't
- speakerlaid on John.
- speakerFrankly I was protecting
- speakerhim as much as grabbing power
- speakermyself. I would say that it was.
- speakerBut my, my system therefore was
- speakerthat we redid his letter and we
- speakerdid edit his letter.
- speakerHe wrote English, rather than
- speakerAmerican. running on thing and things like that right.
- speakerBut I remember very well
- speakerthat I decided it was
- speakerthe. I don't know, this is
- speakerone of those places
- speakerwhere there might have been trouble been laid on me because
- speakerif it's a General Council letter to Presbyterians then he is the Secretary to the General Council why don't
- speakerhe release
- speakerit? [Bauer] Right. [Blake] Well I thought it ought to be released by the
- speakerStated Clerk. and I flew down from Glens Falls in a private.
- speakerI was up in Glens Falls for a presbytery meeting for
- speakersomething
- speakerI drove to Albany and saw I was going to be too late to get
- speakerthere for my date to release this letter.
- speakerSo I drove to the airport in Albany and got
- speakera hired a plane. When it landed
- speakerthat called up my house in New Canaan. Had
- speakermyself
- speakermet by a man who worked for
- speakerus and I got there just in time at one
- speakerfifty-six Fifth Avenue in the old days that is where it was.
- speaker[Bauer] Right. [Blake] and
- speakerI released the
- speakerletter at that point on behalf of
- speakerthe moderator and the General Council. I think that would be the
- speakerpoint. I made it. Tried to make it
- speakernot an individual but not
- speakeranything less than an individual either. In fact as more as a Moderator and the General
- speakerCouncil. But me acting. [Bauer] Right.
- speaker[Blake] now I don't I don't think I figured that out exactly, but I think it is the right way to
- speakerdo it, now that I think of
- speakerit. And, it hit the front page of the New York
- speakerTimes.Now, there are not many things that the church does come right out
- speakerof. My closest friend
- speakerof the
- speakerseven was Paul Payne [Payne, Paul C.], as I've indicated. I worked with
- speakerhim on the
- speakerBoard of Christian Education from the time he
- speakercame.
- speakerand. So let me give you another illustration
- speakerof something that kind of action.
- speakerWe had a black man
- speakerin North Carolina. You will have to look
- speakerup Presbyterian Life. You'll have a job to
- speakerdo to get these names. I won't be able to tell them to you.
- speakerSo you'd better have Presbyterian Life handy because they
- speakercovered everything pretty well in those days. Cadigan [Cadigan, Robert, editor] and Heinze [Heinze, Robert H.]
- speakerwere making a real
- speakerpaper. It had
- speakertwo million circulation. [Bauer] Two mission. Is that right? [Blake] That was
- speakerThat was. It was one of the great periods.
- speakerLate forty's.
- speakerYes, dear? [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] I don't know
- speakerif you are talking about the McCarthy thing. Have you got this on?
- speakerYes a lot of us or didn't you know I think those but I thought I
- speakerdid tell you something from the beginning well I don't know what
- speakeryou really
- speakerwant but when I first came. You remember Jim Robinson [Robinson, James Herman] late. Oh
- speakeryes. he really is
- speakerthe beginning of the Peace Corps because he
- speakerstarted sending young people over a way in West
- speakerAfrica. [Bauer] He is the reason I'm in the ministry. [Blake] is he?
- speakerWell [Bauer] He spoke at Grinnell the first Grinnell I believe.
- speakerAnd that's as close to a conversion experience as I've ever gotten well. [Blake] It's great to
- speakerhave. Anyway he had just come back when I
- speakercame East fifty
- speakerone for this new job. He had just come back from a
- speakertrip around the world speaking on behalf of the Christian
- speakerchurch and our church and
- speakerthe nation because the State Department
- speakersent him in order to witness to how fine it was to be a
- speakerfree black man in the United
- speakerStates. [Bauer] Okay. [Blake] Well that was fine, except another part of the Department [Department of State]
- speakerPassport Department. Frances
- speakerKnight [Knight Parrish, Frances] was running that department and she threatened
- speakerto take his passport away from him for other reasons
- speakerentirely. Scott McLeod [McLeod, Robert Walter Scott] who is
- speakeranother
- speakerPresbyterian over her under Dulles all of them
- speakerthere, were about to take Jim
- speakerRobinson's passport away from him.
- speakerNow, you asked how I worked. I went down to Frances
- speakerKnight. And, I said if you don't get Jim his passport back right
- speakeraway you will have the worst stink on your hands that you ever saw.
- speakerNow, how do you act? [Bauer] Right. [Blake] I mean you see.
- speakerBut you've got
- speakerto have enough nerve to act and
- speaker[Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] behind you. [Blake] Never mind you want to come in and add
- speakerfootnotes. [Bauer] That's all right. [Blake, Jean Ware Hoyt] Well, it is!
- speaker[Blake] Well that was the beginning of
- speakerthat relationship. Now I
- speakerdid know Dulles [Dulles, John Foster] and the most was never as bad as
- speakerthis front page press.
- speakerIf you if you read what Dulles actually said in the back of the Times [New York Times] in those
- speakerdays it wasn't as a papers no
- speakergood compared to what is,
- speakerWas then because they didn't have these boxes in the back I learned how
- speakerto read the paper from back to front that really had the full
- speakertext. They had the text of what a man said. You read what he said, then you so what some stupid
- speakerreporter's buddies
- speakersaid. And, the
- speakerdifference was tremendous. Well anyway. In any
- speakercase
- speaker[Bauer] Can we? [Blake] Don't . Go ahead
- speaker[Bauer] Let's go back to
- speakerthis. How was it first
- speakerrecognized that this McCarthyism thing was really a problem? Did
- speakeryou. Did you and others
- speakerjust. [Blake] Yes. Everybody was scared to death of him that that was that that was
- speakerthe fact. And, most people buttered him
- speakerup, but there was a fellow named
- speakerBenton [Benton, William Burnett] and Bowles [Bowles, Chester Bliss], those two.
- speakerOne of them was senator
- speakerfrom Connecticut. Was that Benton or Bowles?
- speakerChester Bowles. In any case.
- speakerSee this is one of my troubles now. My memory is
- speakernot what it should be. And my eyes have been such I can't quickly check
- speakerup either. YSo that I can read but
- speakerit's I don't read enough. Well
- speakeranyway. One of them got beat by
- speakerMcCarthy for the Senate. I think
- speakerLodge beat him. John Oliver Lodge was still around.
- speakerStupid as
- speakerever but he
- speakerbeat. McCarthy beat
- speakerthis Senator who had attacked him.
- speakerAnd so they all were scared from then on.
- speakerThat would be probably
- speakerfifty-
- speakertwo. I imagine an election I don't know
- speaker[Bauer] All right. [Blake] It will be the high time.
- speaker[Bauer] And what you're saying in a sense is that from the
- speakerChristian
- speakerperspective or at least from
- speakeran informed Christian theological
- speakerperspective
- speakerMcCarthyism was, was just obviously. [Blake] Well it
- speakerattacked us too.
- speakerLet's remember that this guy J.B. Matthews [Matthews, J. B. [Joseph Brown]], who
- speakerwas Senator McCarthy's assistant
- speakeran ex Communist.
- speakerand this is a
- speakertypical ploy. Anybody who is an ex Communist is to be
- speakerbelieved. [Bauer] right. [Blake] and he didn't need to be believed or
- speakerreally but he had said that seven thousand clergyman
- speakerwere communists or
- speakercommunist infiltrators. and my answer to that one, without
- speakerconsulting anyone, was name one.
- speakerNever heard a
- speakerthing! but I mean that that was going on so
- speakerit
- speakerwasn't. We didn't take up the battle first. They were battling
- speakerus.
- speakernow when I came on in fifty-one. Well I think Truman was still
- speakerpresident, nominally. Because Eisenhower was elected in fifty-two.
- speakerSo I I have
- speakerto admit, I didn't think as much of Truman then as I
- speakerdo now. [Bauer] Um. [Blake]
- speakerwas Truman wasn't on
- speakertheir relationship to the
- speakerchurch Truman wanted to get
- speakeryou out as pleasantly and as fast as
- speakerpossible. It was a very interesting contrast of Ike.
- speakerIke I knew best. I
- speakerguess but because he thought. Well, he
- speakerbecame a
- speakerPresbyterian
- speakerand, he
- speakerdid some good things. He was also a very bad
- speakerwriter too. He was a good bridge player, and anybody who can play bridge as well as he can
- speakercan't be. [Bauer] It takes some brains to play a good
- speakergame of bridge. And he played. He played in a high league of bridge.
- speakerWhere are we? Well. [Bauer] So they had. They had attacked
- speakerthe Church so it was clear that there was
- speakeran animosity.
- speakerWhere? It was Mackay's [Mackay, John Alexander, President Princeton Theological Seminary] idea to write the letter
- speakerbut there had to be discussion
- speakersomewhere among the Seven Last Words or in the General Council. [Blake] No. It was the
- speakerGeneral Council.
- speakerI think I'm right because Mackay was a
- speakermoderator. He is either Moderator or the next year is Moderator [Mackay was moderator 1953.]
- speakerand I don't know which. That's the reason. [Bauer]All right we'll check that. [Blake] I
- speakerI think that he's still moderator.
- speakerThat would make him chairman of the General [Bauer] General Council.
- speaker[Blake] I think he wrote to us.
- speakerHe suggested that he would thought that it was a crucial time and we ought
- speakerto take the position.
- speakerNow John, of course, was unusual. I don't know whether you realize it he
- speakerwrote real stuff in
- speakerthe New York Times magazine
- speakersection all during the War. He didn't take a damn
- speakerword back. [Bauer] after that right. [Blake] I mean, that was something of his
- speakerstrength. And it wasn't just pap either.
- speakerIt
- speakerwas. He was the first one who dared to
- speakermention recognizing China.
- speakerHe did that in the
- speakerforty's. [Bauer] That is incredible! [Blake] So he
- speakerhad status to to do something. And, he
- speakerwrote this thing
- speakerand we were smart enough on the General
- speakerCouncil to realize we had something that was good and useful and ought to
- speakerbe the position.
- speakerNow that is the. There is a piece which I think needs to
- speakerbe done in your report.
- speakerI don't want to be quoted too
- speakermuch. Glenn Moore [Moore, Glenn Warner] is a good one. [Bauer] Right. [Blake] to find out. [Bauer] Yes,
- speakerand he's going to be part of it. [Blake] and he may have may have been
- speakerI don't know
- speakerwhether I guess
- speakerI
- speakerwell I
- speakerdidn't
- speakerWell, let Glenn put it himself. as
- speakera contrasting our positions as your
- speakerthe chief permanent
- speakerofficer of the Presbyterian Church. I am the
- speakerchief
- speakerhired man. [Bauer] So, that is interesting. [Blake] See I am. I was the
- speakerofficer elected by the top
- speakerbody and stated that
- speakerthat was more than one year at a time. [Bauer] Was
- speakerthat right? [Blake] Se had no position in the Presbyterian
- speakerChurch between assemblies
- speakerif you don't mae them stated.
- speakerOK Now. I am wondering as you see. [Bauer] Now, that's all right. [Blake]
- speakerWhen you want to move into something else.
- speaker[Bauer] Let's
- speakerpursue this one. What [Blake] Race. I was starting
- speakerat the beginning of the race. [Bauer] Well, but I want to see
- speakerthis McCarthy thing one more time. So the thing was published in the paper. I mean published in the
- speakerchurch and it went in the on the front page of The New
- speakerYork Times. Did all hell break loose at that point?
- speaker[Blake] No we
- speakerwant is
- speakerStevens [Stevens, Robert T., Secretary of the Army] who was secretary of
- speakerwar and
- speakerhe wasn't a beauty either.
- speakerbut he was tickled to death with it. So we were thick as
- speakerthieves with the Secretary of War, the Presbyterians against McCarthy.
- speaker[Bauer] Ah! Okay. [Blake] In other words,
- speakernot since Reagan's been
- speakerhere have preachers been so
- speakerimportant
- speakeri those things they're hard to know what. You
- speakerknow. I
- speakercan recall things well that was way up but I don't remember I didn't live my life
- speakeron them. [Bauer] Right but the the church.
- speakerIt did not create
- speakera kind of a fracture in the church as I recall. You see no. fifty two is
- speakerwhen I went to seminary and that's when I started seminary. So this was right before I went into the parish.
- speakerSo. [Blake] You must have been thinking about it.
- speaker[Bauer] Yes but it was a
- speakerwasn't directly involved
- speakerseminary people thought it was
- speakerfantastic but then [Blake] Good! [Bauer] but I was at McCormick and you had all
- speakerthe Wright [Wright George Ernest] , Cross [Cross, Frank M., Jr.] and Haroutunian [Haroutunian, Joseph] and folks like that who
- speakerwould who would respond favorably
- speaker[Blake] Well, not necessarily. It was the president of Princeton [Mackay, John Alexander] who did it.
- speaker[Bauer] Yes. But in terms of the church's general response,
- speakeryou didn't get a lot of hate mail
- speakeror. [Blake] Sure I always had hate mail.
- speaker[Bauer] Sure.
- speaker[Blake] Most of the time it wasn't worth answering.
- speaker[Bauer] But this is didn't cause anything like Angela Davis? or anything like that?
- speakerNo. Angela Davis was a stupid one.
- speakerI was in Europe so I can say that.
- speaker[Bauer] You can say that.
- speaker[Blake] Tumbling on a recent one
- speakeron Bob Jones college. I think
- speakerthat this again I don't. This is not for a quote, by the way
- speakerand they was not a place
- speakerIn the church that they weren't eligible to be
- speakerelected and I thought that was enough to
- speakerdo. [Bauer] And, then time would take care of it?
- speaker[Blake] Well. If you. If it was right
- speakerwhy you would push for it but you wouldn't force
- speakerit. [Bauer] And, the recent thing was to force
- speakerit. [Blake] right and we pay for that. [Bauer] We did.
- speakerAnd we tried to get
- speakerthe women's thing or the
- speakerwomen's group off of that to see what they were doing. But they
- speakerjust there was not enough
- speakerstatesmanship involved. Let's go on to the race
- speakerthing which you started
- speakerbefore. [Blake] I started the first thing that happened to me one
- speakerof our pastors down in the Carolinas, one of them,
- speakergot arrested and needed ten thousand
- speakerdollars
- speakerbail. He was
- speakergoing to be in
- speakerjail, which can mean anything in [Bauer] Yes. [Blake] in the
- speakerCarolinas.
- speakerI
- speakercalled Paul Payne. Paul, should we do something about
- speakerthis? and he said yes we
- speakershould. He said I'll back you with the money if you'll take
- speakerthe
- speakeraction. So
- speakerI took action on myself and made available ten thousand
- speakerdollars bail, sent it to him, and got
- speakerit got him out of jail.
- speakerNow the effect of that on the relationship of blacks to
- speakerthe Stated Clerk's office
- speakerwas something that you can't
- speakerbelieve. A few months later I think it was.
- speakerThe black radicals of the
- speakerNortheast dissolved themselves and sent the balance of their money
- speakerto the Stated Clerk.
- speakerbacking everything as such. That. That happened.
- speakerI learned from that one
- speakerwhat happens when you take a
- speakerright action. We got enough money through the stories that Bob
- speakerHeinze [Heinze, Robert H.] wrote about
- speakerit in Presbyterian Life so that we never had
- speakerto have any money. People gave it to us.
- speakerAnd so we were we were at a right time. But that was the
- speakerfirst breakthrough on the
- speakersituation in our church. [Bauer] What year would that be
- speakerapproximately? You said before, I need to check
- speakerPresbyterian Life. I will.
- speakerand
- speaker[Blake] By the way,
- speakerI think Heinze would be a very good person
- speakerfor you to talk to.
- speakerFrank is good but
- speakernot. Bob knows
- speakermore than Frank will ever know.
- speakerI like them both , I mean. [Bauer] Oh, yes. they both of them.
- speakerBut Bob is beyond
- speakerHe is in bad bad physical
- speakershape but you can go and see him in Fort Lee, which would be very thoughtful.
- speakerHe would be very helpful. And, if he would
- speakerbe glad to help
- speakeryou find. if he I think his memory is better than mine.
- speaker[Bauer] Okay. I will talk to him. [Blake] He might.
- speakerI just realize that he's somebody that I'd
- speakerask when was that.
- speakerNow, that would
- speakerbe
- speakercertainly
- speakerbefore the race
- speakerthing got important. The big thing that happened to race was
- speakerin
- speakerMay of nine-
- speakerteen. [Bauer]
- speakerabout to not be able to. Irwin Miller [Miller, J. Irwin. CEO Cummins Engine Corporation, Disciples of Christ] who was then the president of the
- speakerNational Council of Churches. So that would be before between fifty seven and
- speakersixty. I am pretty certain of
- speakerthat.
- speakerIn early
- speakerMay television and its first
- speakerbasic influence
- speakeron the race problem with the cops and the
- speakerdogs, fire hoses on the streets of Birmingham.
- speakerIrwin Miller, being the moderator of the, President of the National Council, had been
- speakerinvited to Des Moines, that's the year [1963].
- speakerThe Des Moines General
- speakerAssembly. [Bauer] That's right. [Blake] and he was
- speakerthere talking about money. What do you do for money.
- speakerWe did appropriate five hundred thousand dollars that we had the
- speakerplan to
- speakerat sixty three. The reason was it was a new situation a creates a
- speakersituation and five hundred
- speakerthousand dollars was
- speakerdone. And, the National
- speakerCouncil, through its president who was there when we did
- speakerit, supported it and
- speakercommitted himself to find other support, National Council support. Anyway.
- speakerJust how fast this thing went. This is
- speakerMay. By the middle of June, we had a
- speakerstaff in the National Council of Churches.
- speakerWe had support from the major mainline denominations. Some of them
- speakernever
- speakerpaid. I'll not mention who.[Bauer] All right.
- speaker[Blake] But we had it
- speakerand I found myself to my
- speakersurprise acting chairman of the religion
- speakerand race thing of the National
- speakerCouncil because the chairman
- speakerwas Lichtenberger, [Lichtenberger, Arthur Carl] presiding bishop the Episcopal
- speakerChurch. He got ill, and the doctor wouldn't let him do anything
- speakerall summer. So Lichtenberger asked me if I would
- speakeract for him, and he never came back, as a matter of fact, so I
- speakerwas left. In the middle of the month of July.