Kenneth G. Neigh interviewed by Susan Miller, 1989-1990, tape 2, side 2.

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You know, I wouldn't have told you the Judy story if it had to do
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This is Side two of the tape with Kenneth Neigh on
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January eighteenth
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nineteen ninety.
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Um. where do I want to pick up here?
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Jane [Neigh, Jane Baldwin] was impressed by the way you have done this.
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That's nice. Thank you for telling me.
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In nineteen sixty-five,
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when Malcolm X was murdered and there was
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the march from Selma to Montgomery, Martin
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Luther King is part of the campaign to get people to vote, as you know,
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or get blacks registered to vote.
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Someone told me, although I have never seen this in writing that you were somehow involved with the
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Selma March. Did you do anything with that? Were you there?
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I was.
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It's. It's a strange thing. I would. I went across
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the bridge with King, when Bull Connor [Conner, Theophilus Eugene "Bull"] was
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there and all that business.
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But, I was also involved in some integrated housing in Cleveland.
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And, after the March started, I got on an
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airplane and went to Cleveland.
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And, it was important
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because this was the first one of its kind.
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And, did that, and then came back.
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And, that was the March outside of Montgomery.
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Now that was.
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That was my involvement, there with it, but
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there were an awful lot of Presbyterians in that. Ted Gill [Gill, Theodore Alexander],
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who was the President of San Francisco Seminary at the time. The guy
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who cleaned the kitchens and the latrines and the stuff like that. Oh, really?
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A great many of the student body were on that March.
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It turned. Didn't it turn violent though?
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Well, yes. They
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gave billy clubs to the rednecks.
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And, yeah. When I. When I moved down here,
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I was cleaning up my
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old clothes prior to the move. I had a brown suit
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that I always wore down there, because when you would
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walk along, on one of these things, the crackers would split the back of your suit.
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So, I got a brown suit to match up the back
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One way to solve a problem
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Did you
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ever meet Martin Lurther King one on one?
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Or?
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Yeah, before he was, even before any of this.
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I remember at one time in
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particular
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He was
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a very good preacher, as you know. And
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Central Methodist Church each year had prominent preachers
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from all over the country
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at
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part of the Lenten series. And King used to come
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to Detroit when I was, I was still out in
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Detroit.
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Oh, there were a lot of, lot of meetings, where we. As a matter of
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fact, the Meredith March [June 1966]
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and some other times,
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King. King
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slept and, in a sense, lived, in a
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kind of one of those pickup type trailer things.
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It belonged to Mary Holmes
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College. Oh really.
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So
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Ah.
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There were a lot of charismatic people around that time:
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Cesar Chavez and all. It's curious, when I went
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out to do what I did with the grapepickers, a lot of the
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S.N.C.C. people that I had known in Mississippi were out in
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Delano, California, doing their thing with the
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grape pickers.
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Well. What was that that you were? I didn't. I don't know about this, the grape pickers.
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What did you do out there?
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Oh.
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It was when Cesar Chavez was mounting his
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campaign against the
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against the growers to get the grape pickers unionized.
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At the time,
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I was the chairman of
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the Division of Christian Life and Mission
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the National Council of Churches.
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So, I was chairman of the delegation that went out
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to do that thing.
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There are some real funny stories about that one too.
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When was that any way? I know I know the names,
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Cesar Chavez, but I?
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Oh. That would be
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late. late sixties.
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I can't pinpoint the date. No, no. That's good.
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As I say, it.
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followed in Mississippi and
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because S.N.C.C. [Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee] was involved.
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In sixty-five, there were. There were the Irvine riots in that
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summer, in Chicago, and various other big
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cities. How did the Board of National Missions deal with these riots?
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That was sixty-seven, wasn't it? Sixty-seven?
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Well, sixty eight there was a few.
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There was a Senate Subcommittee investigating the Chicago Project
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that cooled down?
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Am I? Am I completely off base here? Well, I think you are off base in terms of
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time. Time. That's the program we had with Blackstone rangers.
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Right. I was going to ask you about that
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too.
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Well we. We attempted to do it beforehand.
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and it was a controversial figure
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entered the scene called Saul Alinsky. Have you read about
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Saul? I know the name. Self-styled radical and that kind of stuff.
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Saul was a community organizer,
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and in the
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early forties
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had organized what was called then the back of the yards movement,
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which was an organization, community organization, of poor people. It was the
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first one in the country. And, he had what was called
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established there and the areas the Industrial Areas Foundation. So, when
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things got with the boiling point on the
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south side
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The people
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in the First Church Chicago,
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Chicago Presbytery,
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the diocese, the Archdiocese of Chicago,
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and we formed the Woodlawn organization
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and Saul was the guy, was
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the organizer
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This got us into a lot of trouble because
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Mayor Daley,
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well he had the city under control, you know. And, he didn't want to
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He had his people
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in these areas. And he didn't
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want community organization.
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so that. And this cropped over into
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The hearings that were held later in the Senate about this project.
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The way that started in the Senate, Dan Rostenkowski
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who was the chairman of the Budget Committee of the House now, was
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Daley's boy. He was from the Belmont
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section of Chicago. And, he went to some of us, some of
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our people, one of whom was Senator Curtis, [Curtis, Carl Thomas] who was then a Senator from
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Nebraska. and he said to him, "Look what your church is doing to our
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people in Chicago." and that's how the investigation started in the
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Senate. but
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Anyway
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there were no riots in the southside of Chicago at
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that period.
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As I say it
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and one of the reasons that
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I had no
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relationship with the Historical Society [Presbyterian Historical Society]
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is because of Jim
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Hastings [Nichols, James Hastings], who was big on the Board. I don't know, this was
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before you [Susan Miller] came. He was dean of Princeton Seminary here. He
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and his wife were members of the First
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Presbyterian Church in Chicago.
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And were on Daley's side on this thing.
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I went to tea one time, while Jane and I were
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at McCord's [McCord, James I.]. And, she still isn't speaking to me. And, this
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is twenty-five years later.
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And, well, anyway. The things that happened
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subsequently. And, this is really the answer to your question.
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We have we established these community
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organizations.
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One was in Rochester. Another in an
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area of Detroit.
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One up here
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in Newark. And, when I say "we," it was
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an ecumenical-type thing.
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Where we established these things, when the cities burned, there were no
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burnings in the areas where we had community organizations.
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Now Saul,
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he went to Rochester to
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do the thing.
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We'd been the whole, the whole
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CODEP hierarchy was Presbyterian.
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So I had forgotten. they are
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I was out in Cleveland.
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I got a telephone call. It was from one of these people who was the
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owner of the television station in Rochester.
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And, he was uptight about
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community organization as part of the establishment. And, I had known him for some time.
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And, he said, "What about Saul Alinsky?" And, I said,
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"There is nothing wrong with Saul Alinsky, except he has a fat mouth."
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Well, it happened that the new president of the
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University of Rochester [ Wallis, Wilson Allen] had been on the faculty at the University of
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Chicago and was on the opposite side of this issue. So, he
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had a press conference for Saul
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at the University.
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Saul was taking questions.
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This is historically invalid, but I think it's funny. Saul was taking
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questions at the press conference. And,
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a reporter from this television station got up. I guess maybe he was filming it, I don't know.
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And, he said, "How come
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Ken Neigh says you have a fat mouth?" Oooh, gosh!
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Saul. Someone told me Saul
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threw his head back, and he laughed and he said, "Why
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that little son of a bitch!"
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At least he laughed first.
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That, that's the kind of
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after. Saul was rehabilitated
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in the eyes of the establishment. And, when Pat
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Moynihan became a part of Nixon's cabinet,
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Pat
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offered
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Saul a community organization job with his department.
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After, we can talk about the Delta Ministry. Is that
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all part of this movement
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too? This project?
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The Delta Ministry thing is is, has a strange kind of origin.
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This again, it was sort of Chicago conviction. There was a research
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person in Chicago that Ramage [Ramage, David, Jr.] and Jon Regier [Regier, Jon L. [Jon Louis]],
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who was at the National Council [National Council of Churches], knew. And, he was out of a job.
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And, things were popping in the Delta. And so, we sent him
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down there. He came back up
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and reported to Jon [Regier, Jon L.] and Dave [Ramage, David, Jr.] and I forgot who else
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was in the office that day. But this is.
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This is where the
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Delta Ministry was born. One of the interesting
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sidelights is that
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It got money
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from the World Council of Churches. And, the
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reason it got money from the World Council of Churches was because
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we invented laundering money. This is the way we supported
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the church in Cuba. We gave it to the World Council of Churches.
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So, we said, now wouldn't it be fun to
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have the World Council of Churches support the Delta Ministry. And they got
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money. The Delta Ministry got money from the World Council of Churches,
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mainly from German churches.
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But anyway that. That's how it came about.
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And it became a very very very effective tool. Thomas [Thomas, Rev. Arthur C.] was a good man.
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Thomas?
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Well Thomas was, was the director of
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the Delta Ministry. Never did know what happened to him.
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He was called a communist and all that stuff.
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Because of his involvement?
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We haven't really talked about the Vietnam War at all. We mentioned before.
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That that was part of the politics
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going on in the sixties.
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How did it
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affect you and your work? How do you
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think it showed in your work with Board of National Missions? You know what
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happened there
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in the sixties?
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Well, I never really thought about that one. Do you think, because of the reaction
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in Vietnam or in the, mostly
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the young people reacting towards this war, unjust war,
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And then it becoming more and more popular for everyone to
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say this is an unjust war. Did that have an overall effect on the National Missions work at all?
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Well.
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If it did, it was imperceptible
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because
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other, more painful,
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issues were appearing in neighborhoods next door.
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Right. That's the next thing.
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We did the
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kind of thing that
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oh,
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most churches did. And it.
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This is one of the places where
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the National Council of
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Churches and the Boards of
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Foreign Missions. In our case, C.O.E.M.A.R.
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were more intimately involved than we were.
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But, I think it. I don't think it had
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any effect upon, upon funding
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or the attitudes
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toward the church at the time. As I say, those attitudes were were
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forming out of other things.
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The other big thing I want to talk about was the Angela Davis [Davis, Angela Yvonne]
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case in, in seventy-one.
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What was your
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involvement in getting the funding for her defense fund?
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What was your
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role?
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Well, the defense fund
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came off the top of the
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contributions to the church. For
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me. That's where the Council on Church and
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Race was funded too.
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The involvement in the defense fund
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was totally a denominational involvement.
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And there was a
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And to say that I didn't have some influence, probably begging the
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question that. There was an executive committee
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other than that. Of COCAR
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that approved the funding of
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of these defenses, you know. The curious thing
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about this is that
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It's
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popular belief that that is the only defense fund that we funded.
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Its. We were all over the country.
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Moline, Illinois.
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Do you want to start at
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the beginning of this Angela Davis thing? Yes, sure.
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Well, here is how it came about. The Defense fund had been
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established.
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COCAR had a very good staff then.
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Gay Wilmore [Wilmore, Gayraud S., Jr.] was the head, and Oscar McCloud [McCloud, J. Oscar] was
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in it. And,
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Bill. Oh, his father is the
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president
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of farm machine company. Bill? Anyway, it was a very very
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staff. And of course they were,
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they were in touch with
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most of the synods and presbyteries had, had
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civil rights people on the staff then. In the beginning, they were
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white and were called inner city people, but as the climate
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changed, they, the staff, became became black. So it
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was largely black at the time. And
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the Synod of California
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northern. Well, I don't know if it was split at that
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time
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had a, had such a commission. And, the
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chairman of the commission is now the executive for the Presbytery of the
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Northeast. And, so
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Angela Davis was unjustly,
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in my view, and in the view of the court because she was
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committed, acquitted. She was
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held in
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a civic center
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Oh, what is the name of that town?
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in
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California anyhow. And in the center,
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one side of the center, was a holding cage.
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And, she was in that holding cage.
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And, she had a social worker that would come in and see her from time to time
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and
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the social worker belonged to
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our church in what is the name of that town?
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who
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Anyway she went to prayer meeting
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after she'd made a visit to Angela Davis.
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And, the cops there had
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the habit of searching her when she went in for guns.
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They not only searched her but they fondled her and all that kind of thing, you know.
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She was really upset. So, at this prayer
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meeting, she
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asked for
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help to deal with this. Well the elders took it
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to the church, to the session and to the church
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and petitioned
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the Synod
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of California for defense funds.
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Now,
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this is not to say there our people who knew or were involved with
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the negotiations and stuff like that. But it is to say
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that it was not something that was superimposed upon California. On
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California by New York headquarters,
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which is a popular belief.
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Well, the thing that
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happened was
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I was not at the meeting where the thing was approved. I was out making
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a pitch in Western Pennsylvania. And,
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Mildred Herman called me. And she had been at the meeting for me. and she told me I ought to
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have my oil tree. I said to her, "My God, they just opened my
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arteries." So
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And this was just before
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General Assembly. And, the
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grant toward Angela Davis's defense fund was
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on a list about that long.
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And so, the Commission on Church and Race was accused of trying to
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hide it. And
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And as
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you know, it was at
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the nineteen seventy-one General Assembly
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that it came to the floor. Now Bill Thompson [Thompson, William P.] and I
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disagree mightily on this one. The whole reorganization
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of the church was up for a vote at that
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time.
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and
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Bill docketed
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the re-organization just before the Angela Davis discussion.
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The upshot of the whole thing was that everybody was so anxious to get
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to the Angela Davis thing that they paid no attention whatever to re-organization.
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and there were people on the floor, especially minority people,
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who were about to take it apart. That everybody wanted
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to get to Angela Davis thing.
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Of course, as you know, that the Angela Davis thing was approved
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by a General Assembly.
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Angela Davis was acquitted by the court. But
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the
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controversy took on added fuel, and
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I got a thousand letters, over a thousand letters. And,
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my life was threatened.
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Caught one of them.
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He's now in some kind of.
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Institution in New Jersey.
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No.
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I can get exercised about this because.
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of the number of things that subsequently happened.
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They had. We had me then what was called a
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General Secretary's conference call, which at that point,
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and George, George Hunt [Hunt, George Laird] is writing about it.
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He largely did determine what the church was going to be
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Bill Morrison [Morrison, William A.] had been
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fired as General Secretary of the Board of Christian Education and Jim Gailey [Gailye, James R.] took over.
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And, he and another came to the General Secretaries conference
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with a proposal that we send a letter of apology to the church.
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For this. Well it
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never did get around to me, because Bill Thompson [Thompson, William P. Thompson, Stated Clerk of the U.P.C.U.S.A.] who's
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sitting next to the chairman. And, Bill said, "If
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you pass this, I will have to resign."
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And
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Bill was always on and on the right side of things,
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frequently for the wrong reasons. In this case he was on
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this side, because it had been done
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within the rules of the church with impeccable care. And, he had some.
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I'm not, I'm not denigrating his commitment to these things. He had committed about it too.
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But that was one of the things
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attempted at that time.
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Then there was the great big hullabaloo
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that's still. There are still people raising
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money for conservative causes on Angela Davis.
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Really! As late as this autumn.
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I was at a meeting here in Princeton and they were raising money
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for Warren Wilson College,
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at which Angela Davis was
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blamed for the fact that Warren Wilson was
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cut loose from the church and had to be on its own.
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That is a long time. And they blame that
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the decline in
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membership on that, and you've heard that one, I'll bet you?.
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One of the other things people don't understand is that other denominations
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that weren't involved with Angela Davis had similar
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And one of the strange things about this,
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that on that list of things that
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went to General Assembly,
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We.
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contributions to the Defense Fund, the
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project was one
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to Rap Brown's [Brown, H. Rap] [Hubert Gerold Brown] [Jamil Al-Amin] group in New York. The
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Defense Fund of Rap Brown, and he was the radical. Yes. He
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And, he. you know. and his
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group was innocent of things too. They were acquitted. But here,
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the prevailing view in the Midwest and other places was good enough for New York.
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But. And, another thing was that
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shortly after I came to New York I knew
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that something was going to happen to
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our denomination in terms of
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membership, and I mean that kind of thing. Because it was already
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showing up in Detroit. We had hit a plateau out there.
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So, did you ever hear of Fred Maier? Fred is a
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researcher and was in our research office for quite a number of years.
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The Research Office did
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a study and plotted.
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And, this is before Angela Davis, before C and G N, before
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Jim Forman [Forman, James]. And you don't have Jim Forman in there either, do you? Do you know who Jim was?
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He's the guy that sat in all, sat in my office and
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The Black Manifesto.I'm
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surprised you don't have anything about the Black Manifesto in there. This is what
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Jim Findlay [Findlay, James F.] has written about, "The Black Manifesto."
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But, we had plotted
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the membership decline along about
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nineteen sixty-two three four anyways these things had happened.
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It had to do with the disenchantment with the Presbyterian system.
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It had to do with the, with the rise
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of the lower and middle management types
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in the structures of the church, and that kind of thing.
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What do you think that
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the reaction
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was about? How much money was given? Because it was
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well, it couldn't have been exclusively
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because it was a racial issue. Yeah,
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was it was exclusively a racial issue. For sure. What about her
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issues in terms of being a Communist? Well you see the facts.
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The fact that she was a political pariah,
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or the fact that she was smart,
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the fact that she was a woman, and not only a woman, but a beautiful woman,
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was too much for most Presbyterians to swallow. Really? Yeah. It was if
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it's not just interesting, it is the truth.
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Now if there, like you said, there were so many issues wrapped
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around her, it's kind of hard to see the trees for the forest. I tried to figure
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out what was.
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I don't think you can, as I said earlier about something else. I guess
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we're talking about the siege and ll the influences there. Well, it was the
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same kind feeling in this one.
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I
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think one of the other things is that the people want the church to be
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simplistic and it can't be simplistic.
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Well.
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You're. Physically taken. We still has some time.
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Well, you did obviously catch the brunt of the reaction, some brunt of the reaction from people who threaten
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your life. Did it? So it personally affected
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in as well
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within your job?
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Did you lose friendships
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over it?
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It affected my personal life more than my professional
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life. Here's the kind of
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thing that
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happened.
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We were close to Alma College, and the president of Alma College [Swanson, Robert]
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had been in Chicago with us . And, I had been largely
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responsible for his coming to Alma College. And, they had a house
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out on the Pine River.
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Jane [Neigh, Jane Baldwin] and I were going to build a house across the Pine River. Build a bridge and
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that kind of thing. And we thought
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about we're going to do this. Be there in the summer time.
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After this happened, Jane got a telephone call from
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Bobby Swanson, the president's [Swanson, Robert] wife,
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saying that she didn't think that Jane would be happy in Alma. Jane belongs
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to the Firestone family. And
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I had a letter from
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the titular head of the Firestone family saying that
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he was ashamed of being a
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Presbyterian, and he was especially ashamed of me. Well, Jane and I both
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had houses back in Lisbon.
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And, I don't know. We thought that
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after the Alma thing, we thought well, we will keep one of the houses in Lisbon.
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But it was perfectly apparent that
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we're not going to be welcome. And so, as I say, it affected
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us more, our personal lives more than our
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professional. And of course I was about ready for retirement at that time.
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So if you? Can you tell me a little bit about the blackness at this
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time? Can you tell me a little bit about that?
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fore me? Well, we
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established in the National Council of Churches
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an interdenominational, an interfaith arm called IFCO.
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I don't remember what all the pins mean.
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But it was to organize
speaker
black, black power, in a sense,
speaker
and at the same time
speaker
Jim Forman [Forman, James] had formed. I had first met him when he was in S.N.C.C. in Mississippi.
speaker
I had first known him
speaker
in Mississippi.
speaker
And then, he came north and
speaker
formed Betsy. Black something or other for
speaker
economic development. And, he first
speaker
sat in on Riverside Church in New York. and at the
speaker
nineteen sixty-nine General Assembly he sat in on
speaker
my office, which was the first. Mainly, because we
speaker
had more money than anybody else. And, so
speaker
IFCO had this meeting
speaker
out in Detroit,
speaker
which was to describe, discuss black strategy.
speaker
and Jim came out
speaker
there, and he hogged the platform.
speaker
and came out of that meeting
speaker
with most of his ideas intact.
speaker
And, the
speaker
paper that was issued at that meeting was called "The Black Manifesto."
speaker
Now
speaker
much of the stuff that was in The Black
speaker
Manifesto
speaker
I believed in and still do.
speaker
I did not and still do not like the way that
speaker
Jim presented the thing and the way that it came to the
speaker
church in a negative way. And
speaker
so it became the, the
speaker
focal point of a very hot
speaker
summer. The National Council of Churches, which,
speaker
with one or two exceptions, had about as poor a staff as you can imagine,
speaker
especially the General Secretary, and he knows I feel that way about him.
speaker
We used to call him
speaker
"Whispering Ed."
speaker
But we met all that summer and with
speaker
Forman and he passed the baton on to some other
speaker
people. And, the
speaker
denominations began doing things,
speaker
like we, for example, began to
speaker
examine our educational
speaker
institutions and cut them loose
speaker
and put them under
speaker
black leadership and that kind of thing. The thing that The
speaker
Manifesto wanted was largely being done
speaker
by the denominations, to a lesser degree the
speaker
Methodists
speaker
So that. Because Art Flemming [Flemming, Arthur Sherwood],
speaker
who was
speaker
Eisenhower's Health, Education, and Welfare Secretary and
speaker
was the civil rights.

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Title: Kenneth G. Neigh interviewed by Susan Miller, 1989-1990, tape 2, side 2.
Description: Kenneth Neigh, general secretary of the UPCUSA Board of National Missions, interviewed by Susan Miller of PHS.
Creator: Neigh, Kenneth Glenn, 1908-1996. (interviewee)
Miller, Susan, 1963- (interviewer)
Date: December 7, 1989-January 18, 1990
1989
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: interviews
oral histories
sound recordings
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: 3 audiocassettes : analog, 1 7/8 ips
Language: English
Subject names: Neigh, Kenneth Glenn, 1908-1996.
Geographic subjects: Princeton Junction (N.J.)
North and Central America--United States--Princeton--New Jersey--Mercer
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Note: Side 2 of tape 2. There are 3 audio cassettes. Side 2 of tape 3 is blan
Physical location: CASSETTE 557; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: [Interview with] Kenneth Neigh [sound recording] / [conducted by] Susan Miller.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...
Identifier (local): cassette557_neigh_tape2_side2
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:116414

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Kenneth G. Neigh interviewed by Susan Miller, 1989-1990, tape 2, side 2.

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