Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, side 2.

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Like you can you may begin.
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I've got a note to return to that or later
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or I can go on and do it right now and then I'll skip it when we get to it
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later. I think the
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crucial confrontation
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with Nikolai [Nicholas, Metropolitan of Krutitzy and Kolomna] first, then with the whole group,
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was over the article of Nikolai
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in the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate accusing us of
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germ warfare and chemical warfare in Korea and of
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being the puppets of Wall Street and that whole line.
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And, related to it, the World Peace Council and the Stockholm
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peace proposals.
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Remember that the Federal Council and the
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National Catholic Welfare Council, which is the council of
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bishops, in effect, at that date and the synagogue Council of America had
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got together and issued a rejoinder to the
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Stockholm peace rally proposal, which some American
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churchmen had signed. And, there had been a few
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leftists or people like J. B. Matthews [Matthews, Joseph Brown, "Doc"] only on the other side, who had
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gone to Prague meetings, then Stockholm meetings and that World
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Peace Council. And, they were very sensitive about it. That was one thing that
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we had to get straightened out. That was a misrepresentation,
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if not a at least a misunderstanding. And, as you
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introduced that, you
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emphasized the importance of trying to get at the truth
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of the facts on both
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sides of our tensions. And, there's no
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use inbeing sentimental, we've got to get at the truth.
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And Nikolai said, "Oh, that is so far
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in the past. And it was war time. And people were excited. Let's forget
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about it. Forget about the past and press for the future."
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And, then Sherrill [Sherrill, Henry Knox] jumped in. "We
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can't forget about it. Because it was dishonest.
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And, you're asking us to forget.
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We can't forget, and we can't forgive unless
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you're sorry for the error." And,
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this is one of the times when Henry Sherrill really closed in. And, he thought about it.
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And, he said they wanted us to, let's be Christian brothers here together. "Yeah."
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It was their argument. And Henry said, "But, you're not
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Christian brothers
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so long as there is lying, and he says. "That's my
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memory." His saying, I don't know how many times, that afternoon,
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You've got to tell the truth!" And that kept on. I may have said it first. [Barnes] You introduced it
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on the basis of the truth.
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[Blake] Yeah. I see. Well, I didn't remember. [Barnes] And, he on this business of forgiveness.
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He jumped right in. He could not forgive without penitence and
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I have never
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been a part of as painful a process as that
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because. Now, here is one of the things that need to be added
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to the contents of the archives.
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The circumstances under which we had our conversations
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with surveillance and probably
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infiltration of our group constantly by them. And, we
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proceeded on the assumption that this
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conversation was being recorded and would be reviewed
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in the Kremlin. Now, when
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you're closing in on somebody in discussion of Christian comrades
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together. And then you have to
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remember that this is going to be reviewed by the K.G.B.
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and what's going to happen to this man?
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If he's apologetic for a Soviet policy
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or is seeming to be weak and yielding to
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these lost streets, agents running
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dogs? You have to hesitate a little
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bit as to what the consequences of
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what you're saying are going to be.
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So we were talking, not only to Nikolai there and to the group the
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next day, we were talking to the
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K.G.B., which had these
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people over there. They were the second level.
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However we were talking to the people who were in charge of the
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church and state relations in the Soviet government. They are the ones. Now, they may
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have used K.G.B. or did use it, doubtless. But it is that group
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that I think are, were the important ones and continue to be the important ones.
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[Barnes] Remember. I'm going back now.
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We were met by an abbot named Pimen. [Pimen, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia]
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And Pimen took us as our host to the Sovietskaia Hotel,
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which is the first group other than Eastern or communist
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countries that ever stayed there from the west. That was an interesting thing that they took
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us there. Maybe because they thought they would ruin us by reputation or
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something. I don't know. In any case, we were there.
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Pimen, of course, now is the Patriarch.
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I have seen him relatively recently when I was last in Russia. It was Blake and I
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because Blake was here, and I were invited by him to
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luncheon at the Patriarchate in Moscow.
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With all that background that has gone on since. There is a very
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interesting thing
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I also remember very well the
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luncheon that he gave for us out at the, Zagorosk, the
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Abbey.
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You remember that? [Blake] Yes. [Barnes] I was sitting opposite
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the man, who was the top
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Government man in the church office. You remember his name?
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I have it.
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I don't. I can't put my finger on it now. I can't remember his name, but he was he was there
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opposite me just a little bit this way. And I was
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very happy that I was as big as I am, because he tried to greet me under
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the table.
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The Russian system, you know, is you drink cognac or vodka
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bottoms up. Little glasses fortunately.
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This is the reason you have to keep on eating so much caviar. In order to not
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have it affect you very much. Didn't they have any Scotch for the Presbyterians? No Scotch.
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You have contact or vodka. And,
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fortunately, I like the Russian cognac very much. It's not as strong as French cognac
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either, which means you can do it. But any case. He he was.
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We saw how he hit it off personally. And, I never had any
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feeling that he was my enemy or that he was there purposely. I
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imagine somebody else was there listening to what the Russians did.
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He knew the situation better than I do.
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[Miller, William B.] Was there any suspicion or uneasiness or all of it in the American team
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that the State Department or the CIA maybe put a plant
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on our team? [Barnes] They met us at the airport
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and were very discreet. And, I appreciate that very much.
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The guy, while we were standing outside the airport. He just came up and says we are the
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State Department.
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We just want you to know we are here we're going to let you alone and good bye. And that, I thought
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was very discreet. And they
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were helpful to us. Yeah. Also.
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I had the discussion I think you and I went together over to the embassy, didn't we? and
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worked out the arrangement for a couple of us to go and not require the whole
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delegation to go over there as we were reporting to the
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embassy and the first secretary of the embassy
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when we had the public, official reception to us
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and I talked to him about it. And, I got the programme and there
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were going to be toasts.
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And this man from the Commissariat for religious
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affairs was going to be presiding or conspicuous there. It was
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church and state together putting it on. And, I was
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worried about what we might have to do
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in returning reciprocating toasts. And, the
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secretary of the embassy agreed to come
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and match the representative of the Foreign Office or
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Commissariat. I'd forgotten that. And give the response
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so that a churchman was not giving. Either a toast or. Either
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a toast or a salute to the
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Soviet government.
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He enabled us to evade that. And, incidentally,
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he was very understanding and very helpful. And, I reported that to Secretary of State [Dulles, John Foster] when he got back.
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And, subsequently one day I was walking down the State Department corridors.
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And he came up to me with a broad grin. And, I said, "What are you doing here?"
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And, he said. "Are you surprised?
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Why, they told me around here, it is because of you that I was called back to head the Soviet desk."
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That. That was amusing.
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[Miller] Well. You had no problem getting into Russia
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in sofar as customs or passports? No. that the
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next item on the list there.
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Let me get this on the record here though. I didn't get a clearcut answer to that question. I don' think.I
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think it's important enough, that, as far as the church people were
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concerned on our side. They never had any suspicion at all that our
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government had planted somebody on the support team that would likely to be
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the KGB didn't or Russia, right? Although. No. Don't make
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any difference. I think that. I don't know any difference.
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of that.
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[Blake] We didn't. But, they were charged with Anderson [Anderson, Paul B.] and Barnes [Barnes, Roswell P.], as being
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government influenced people. Weren't they? That what you said?
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We were charged. And, the Soviet leaders were charged by their government with
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collaborating with somebody that was being watched.
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Now. Here is a kind kind of thing that I wanted to check on when we get back.
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Reciprocity is the game with
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regard to the plans and the involvement of government. The government had to
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first issue our passports and the other government the
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visas. Then governments had to give permission to
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travel.
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Our travel in the Soviet Union was restricted.
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Our government imposed,
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when they came over here, reciprocal
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corresponding, restrictions on their travel here.
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It's just the game. Reciprocity is the name of the game.
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And, this is the kind of thing
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that I don't know whether I want to leave in.
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I was offered
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eagerly secret mikes for
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recording crucial conversations or any conversations
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that I would like with an adequate supply of
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tapes. And, I declined.
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And, said that
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even though they told me that this would be happening on the other side. I said
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I don't care.
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We've got enough on our hands. And, I don't want to be distracted by
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carrying these gadgets. Wasn't worth it! Around. And, I wanted to
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be what it appears to be. And, I don't want to do it.
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All right. It is up to you. And that was from our government?
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That is from our government. The CIA wanted me
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to do it.
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Now I didn't think it was the communists!
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And, they told us what to be on the lookout for. You mentioned
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the hotel that we stayed at. First group that was there.
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We assumed that every room in the hotel was bugged. Where
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we're eating and our sleeping rooms.
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And, we'd been told by the CIA
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that we should be careful about conversations on the sidewalk
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near any truck that might have a parabolic
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receiver with a mike in the middle of it and to
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watch for being photographed for lip reading
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when we were thinking that we were alone. And,I remember one day you and I were standing out on the
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steps of the hotel and swapping some notes.
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And, I caught a little moment flash reflection of a disk in the
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window on the second or third story of a vacant
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building across the street. And, I said. "What's that?" He said,
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"You know, is that a lens" I said,
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Hectored in sideways." And, we laughed about it.
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And, then we we wondered whether when they saw us turned sideways, they knew
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laughing whether we were on to do it. Whether that would make them suspicious of us that
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we were wise. But now we were alerted to that and
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offered the facilities for reciprocal
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registration. As I remember, our decisions is, check me if I'm wrong.
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We decided to take it for granted that we were being heard
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and to say nothing except what we wanted them to know.
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I think that's a very good way to travel in this kind of circumstances. And,
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knowing that we would not have an opportunity to confer, being sure that we were alone and could
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be frank with each other about our report,
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we scheduled a day stop over in Stockholm to write
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our report. Hied up in a hotel there as the first
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time we could relax and talk to each other without
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but that, that point.
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Another item of questionable about report.
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After we got home. I don't know whether you knew this.
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I was asked, after a long talk with the Secretary of State or with
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John Foster Dulles just personal and official.
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It's scrambling.
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If I would be willing to make some observations to
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the people from the Soviet desk in the State Department and maybe some others. And, I
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said I would be willing to do it on the understanding
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that I would not talk about any individuals
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over there by name. I was not going to give them a
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file of information. And, that I might run
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across things that I wouldn't want to talk about. But, when I went down there
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for that reporting, because there's some things I did
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want to say to them, I found
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thirty or thirty-five people. And, they introduced themselves
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as the Soviet CIA staff,
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psychological warfare and military intelligence.
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So I was especially careful about what I said. And, I gave them
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mostly a lecture on the distinction between communism
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and Russian nationalism as the
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dynamic factors in Soviet behavior
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and some observations about what happens to a revolutionary movement
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vis-a-vis nationalism the farther you get away from the slaughter
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and death and division of the families of the revolutionary period and so on.
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And, I
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we got into a very interesting situation because, when I got on this
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nationalism versus Marxism as, and the dynamics of the relative
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importance and Kremlin behavior.
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they got on the edge of their chairs and began to nod at each other and get in an
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argument. And, I had to become a moderator of a debate there.
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And, I thought.
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Gee, these folks! I've taken the lid off something
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there. And, we stayed on there for three hours.
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And, I gave them illustrations and I was loaded for them.
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And that, a little bit later, Allen Dulles
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sent me a reprint.
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Everybody knows what Allen Dulles's job was? He was head of CIA at the time and
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Foster's brother. And, he sent me
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a little note, enclosing a reprint from the Yale Law
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Review of an address that he'd given at Yale Law School on Russian
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nationalism. And said, I think you'll be interested in this. You probably recognize
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a good bit of it as yours.
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The boys think it was very helpful. Now.
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Well what about the appropriateness of my doing that?
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I tried to justify my reporting that can be
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called reporting.
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Because I think I corrected perspective or influenced perspective a little bit
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on the basis of our experience
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as I reported it.
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Is that appropriate church state relations?
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I don't think so. I hope so.
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I even reported to Nixon on the Middle East one time.
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But I used it to be able to congratulate him for something he had done, I forget what it was first.
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was first. Then tried to get him to change what he was doing.
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That was the. You know, I think that. Yeah. You have to be
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willing to do that. And, you. Your relationships with your own
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government are up to the church really. What they will do.
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And I keep reminding everybody that there are three things a
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Christian churchman in a totalitarian state, I don't care whether it is Fascist
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or communist or anything else. You have three possibilities.
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He can emigrate. And,
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they are the worst source of information as a rule
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because they always remember what it was when they decided that they had
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to leave their own country. And, they don't like that any of them. And then, the
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next one is to get into jail or shot
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or whatever. And, the third one is to try to adjust to the
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realities and
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make your witness. And, I think the third is the hardest and the most important thing to
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try to do if you can.
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Was there any
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attempt to influence one way or another one when the whole trip was being planned?
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Did our State Department try to discourage
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it in any way or did they just stay back?
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It's hard to answer. State Department there were people in the State Department that
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thought we messed things up, that were opposed to it.
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And, it was
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Dulles that overrode it. And, it was interesting that
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Allen Dulles or Foster Dulles? Foster Dulles. Favored the trip? Or at
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least? He supported. He supported it. He agreed to it.
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And partly, because politically. And, they were
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under a lot of pressure. Remember, it's McCarthyism period.
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And, the State Department had
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yielded on firing
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some of the people that McCarthy had targeted, and were
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criticized, very substantially. And,
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Dulles told me one day. He said, "Well, it's fortunate
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that you had good relations with the State Department under Roosevelt and Truman.
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You're on a very select list of reliable counselors."
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He said.
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"Otherwise, we'd be liable to
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political pressures if we yielded to something that you were identified with.
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There's a continuity here and I reviewed my experiences with it before.
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Well I think that
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it ought to be added to
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what appears in the records, that there was not only the Zeit-
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Geist of McCarthyism.
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But the opposition of a group in the Russian Orthodox Church and their
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friends in this country didn't want us to go
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because there was litigation with regard to the control of their Cathedral in New York.
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And, for us by implication
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to recognize the patriarchate and Nikolai
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had implications in the trial for
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their legitimacy. Whereas those that were trying to get the control of the cathedral
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and other church properties in their hands in this country had to
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prove that the church was not a church anymore and was not
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entitled to the continued control of the property in New York.
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So there was there was opposition from some of the Russian. And,
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there are other people, even in our own staff in the National Council. I remember when
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they came over here two men came in to me one day. And, they said,
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"We're just letting you know we will not be reporting tomorrow."
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Because the Russian deputation was coming to visit our offices.
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And, one of them spoke up. And said to me. "So far as I'm concerned, the
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only good Russian is a dead Russian." A fine Christian statement
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And, that was
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in, in the staff. And this fellow tell
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me. I want to call your attention the Secret Service men that will be surrounding the building
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tomorrow.
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We had not only Carmike and Dyer. But there are a
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lot of other people and there was the
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matter of doubt, if not hostility, to the enterprise. [Blake] May I interrupt us a
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second here. I think that that is true.
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That we had these attackers. Stupid I mean
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but they really backfired on themselves. The real thing that was difficulty in
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my experience here in Philadelphia where I was at that time when I came back
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and had to write a letter for an article for the Inquirer.
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Nobody believed that there were any Russians
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churchmen in Russia. And, you couldn't get it across to them they had any chance
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to say anything. And that still is part of our problem. Right.
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And he still is. Was there
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any opportunity in the planning stages either to discuss personally or to communicate with
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Foster Dulles about the trip and to
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solicit his wisdom?
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[Barnes] You'll find in the, in the files the
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reports of the conferences that
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three or four people had with Dulles [Dulles, John Foster] and
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the deputy secretary of state for Eastern Europe
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and the man they sent up for briefing
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Gene [Blake, Eugene Carson] has referred to. And,
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I was having
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meetings with him, conferences with him.
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This is where the person and official gets scrambled
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because we were quite close.
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And I would
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occasionally get a call before a major
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address and ask me to get down to
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Washington to meet him at the White House with the President
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to go over something and come into the executive office building
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and go in the underground passage over so the press wouldn't see me going in,
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that kind of thing.
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You've got to understand the long
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standing relationship, which was pastoral and
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personal, your other word, isn't it? Pastoral and personal, I mean. Yeah.
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some more things that I could put in. Now,
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this I may want to be erase. You can understand. I am uncertain now.
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I remember well I've already talked about his arrival of
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Amsterdam for his speech there. Most interesting thing. And
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he said. It isn't on tape, though, I remember.
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It isn't on it? It is not on it. That was what you talked about before we turned on the tape
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recorder.
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So the, we are on tape again. All right this is a signal that's to be alert to this.
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And I'm getting the varieties of the relationship.
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And I'll probably want to scratch some of this. but I want to get your
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reaction to help me to decide what to leave on.
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He said. "Roswell, I didn't sleep very well last night.
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Can you help me with this?
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'All things work together for good to those who
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are called according to his purpose.' All things work together for good.
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Now, what bearing has that on my speech
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today?"
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Should I not be worried? And, we went on and had quite a lot of talk about this and
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exegesis. And, another time, he
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called me and said, "Are you in a hurry to get home?"
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I said, "Is it important?"
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He said, "Well, I think it is. I can leave a little bit early. I'd
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like to stop off and talk with you.
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I've got to talk with you about whether I should run for the Senate."
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He'd been appointed to fill an unexpired term. Was this John Foster Dulles? Dulles, I'd
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forgotten that. What year was that? I don't remember. Oh, never mind. I'd have to
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spot it. And he came up to my office. He says, "I
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have got to have somebody that I can talk with." He
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said some of my partners and friends say, by all means, you must
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run.
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There are others that say you're not made for politics. You
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can't stand getting your feet muddy campaigning,
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and you don't belong there. You're a diplomat. You're not a politician.
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And, you're going to downgrade yourself, getting into this kind of a race.
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And he said that. "What, what am I to do?"
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What are the questions I ought to be asking myself? And, he stopped off for a couple
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hours. And, then he
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said, after he decided to run.
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Got to have your your warning, as I trust you, when I'm getting off base.
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He made a fool of himself on some things, but
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after he became Secretary of State, that's the kind of thing that was in the
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background when I used to have dinner with him and Tom Dewey in their
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apartment when they were getting ready for him to be Secretary of State to Tom Dewey, when Tom Dewey was going to
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be president.
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And, when he became Secretary of State, I
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wrote a couple of prayers for him to keep in a desk
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drawer. And,
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For himself you mean,
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for his own guidance? For his own guidance. They were personal. That's all. They were personal
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and
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he said that one day
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You know, it'll interest you that
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Romley Oxen is the only pastor I have in Washington. That's interesting.
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Between the two of you that wonderful. But, he said, you understand my
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job you know the temptations.
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And those prayers of yours have just given me your view of relaxation. Great
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and then we'd fight over something
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and he and Allen would fight
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and when he asked me to. When I called you in emergency to ask
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your help. When he asked me if I would stand by him when he knew he had cancer and
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was dying.
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And I spoke to Henry Sherrill [Sherrill, Henry Knox] and to you.
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Henry Sherrill was my boss of mine
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as the first president of the National Council
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and.
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World Council president at the time, so he was my boss
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there. And, you were my boss at the Presbyterian. Yeah. You were Stated Clerk.
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And, you stopped off to see me at a Sunday dinner and had
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supper in our apartment on your way down to Philadelphia.
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And, I asked you whether I could do that, when he had
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other people that were formally
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pastors. And, he told me
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"I've argued with you more than anybody else than Allen. And, I
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can trust you. I don't want somebody that's going to tell me what he thinks I
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want to hear.
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Will you please stand by me?" You said, "Go ahead." and Henry Sherrill said,
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"Go ahead."
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And I had that relationship. That's right. with him.
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Now. When you asked, Gerry [Gillette, Gerald]. about
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whether we discussed it with Dulles. I discussed all sorts of
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things, and I can't unscramble
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the personal and pastoral from the
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official.
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That's why I was so jittery about these tapes. What to do. Only thing I would have to add is that
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as Secretary of State he, at least, supported you. He didn't
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discourage the whole concept of the trip and the reality of it.
speaker
He supported us. And asked Allen [Dulles, Allen] in
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to
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give me the warnings and the cautions and any help he could give me.
speaker
Let me just say here I miss the
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New York Times of that day as compared to now. I think it
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dropped off a great deal. I was taught to read what
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people said. And they used to quote directly in the back
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pages of the Times much more than they do now. I
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learned in those days to read Foster Dulles what he said. And,
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then I'd read the front page and half the time it was a perfect distortion of what he had
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said. And that is the kind of thing that I think that all of us ought to
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know. I mean he was better than his
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press particularly the late press.
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Was he? Had he been on the Commission for a Just and Durable Peace right up to the time he
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became Secretary of State? He'd been chairman of. OK. That
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ended only with his becoming Secretary of State? He was right up that late? In that kind of
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involvement? He took a leave of absence when he became the part foreign
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policy advisor to the Republicans
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and then came back again.
speaker
That was a gesture, I think, important, but not really a solution to
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the ambiguity.
speaker
Well when we got over
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there in the context of our confrontation
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there were these factors of opposition.
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The archives says nothing about, I think nothing
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about, the security considerations.
speaker
We probably would not have gone to the Waldorf to put them up when they came
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over here
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if it hadn't been for consideration for the police of
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New York City, making it easier for them to provide security. And, we were concerned
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about security too.
speaker
And when they arrived
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they came to me out at LaGuardia right away wherever
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it was they arrived and
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the security people said, now, these pickets are out front,
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and there is a rear exit. We can bring the limousine
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out of the back and avoid those pickets.
speaker
And, I said. "No. Let's face
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them. They might as well know what the facts are.
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The hostility they are going to face here, and let them realize it
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now. The pickers are carrying placards. And, security said
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I think you better not go out there.
speaker
Better go out the back way. And, I said,
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"Well if that's your decision OK."
speaker
Well," he said. "It isn't so hard for you to say you want to face them, but we are responsible for
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security. And, a couple of our men
speaker
say that it is gut poison. And, you can't defend against that."
speaker
So
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in setting up thing of that kind,
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the government has a responsibility. And, you've got
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to acknowledge that. And, you don't dare make their job
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impossible or even more difficult is my reasoning.
speaker
And so we went out the back way.
speaker
I didn't know that there was any poison. and I don't hold MacIntire [McIntire, Carl]
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responsible for the poison, but they had infiltrated his crowd. And, he said. There's some that
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had poison. What do you mean poison? Just there on people's faces.
speaker
To mar theirs faces. Blind them and destroy skin.
speaker
How did they find out there was?
speaker
They had their men that had infiltrated. I mean how did they
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find out somebody's got poison? It had like this ?
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I didn't ask them. What they knew about it. They wouldn't
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trust him quite as far as you could. They told me how they found it
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At least, they were making the accusation.
speaker
Yeah and they were giving that as a reason.
speaker
Which I think we needed to take into consideration lest
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we be vulnerable.
speaker
I remember Philadelphia at that same trip. They were
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coming to the Statue of Liberty, I think. I mean not Statue of Liberty. Liberty Bell. And
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the Philadelphia police I had never had as much respect for them as I did after that. That was
speaker
beautiful. They kept them on the other side of the street. And just as we came to get
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out of the cars, the street car
speaker
came up and stopped. Yep. They couldn't even see it. There was a street car barricade that
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kept us, kept the crowd at the other side. They do that sort of thing.
speaker
Well.
speaker
We're we changed our plans considerably out of
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regard for security considerations, and the government was responsible for
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enforcing those.
speaker
Are you sure or not whether Bill Coffin [Coffin, William Sloan] was at that time our
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translator? He went to work for us later. He was one of them. Yes, he went along with
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the Armenian issue. Yeah, but he accommodated us.
speaker
Where now there. Again we had to cover that up.
speaker
Yes because he had a big price on his head
speaker
You see Bill Coffin, now the present, the minister of Riverside Church
speaker
had studied Russian during the war become a
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counter spy for the Office of Strategic Services in Russia
speaker
and Russia had a big reward for his
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apprehension.
speaker
And we wanted a team of good interpreters and
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his Russian was good enough to pass in Russia.
speaker
Spy. So good enough for us.
speaker
He accompanied us when they were over here. He got along wonderfully with
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the Armenian bishop too. Oh, yes. They were up in New Haven
speaker
and went by a jail.
speaker
Bill said to the bishop. That's our jail.
speaker
Lot of the Armenians in there.

In collections

Details

Title: Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, side 2.
Description: Blake and Barnes in conversation on their 1956 trip to Moscow as president and assistant general secretary, respectively, of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Recorded in the board room of the Presbyterian Historical Society, November 9, 1982. Also present, Jean Ware Hoyt Blake, William B. Miller, and Gerald Gillette. Conversation touches on anti-communism of the early 1950s, Blake's interactions with R. W. Scott McLeod and Joseph McCarthy. Includes account of Willem Visser 't Hooft's work with the Roman Catholic church.
Creator: Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985. (speaker)
Barnes, Roswell P. (Roswell Parkhurst), 1901-1990. (speaker)
Date: 1982
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: sound recordings
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: 3 audiocassettes : 1 7/8 ips, mono.
Language: English
Subject names: Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985.
Barnes, Roswell P. (Roswell Parkhurst), 1901-1990.
McLeod, Scott, 1914-1961.
McCarthy, Joseph, 1908-1957.
Visser 't Hooft, Willem Adolph, 1900-1985.
Topics: Anti-communist movements.
Geographic subjects: Moscow (Russia)--Description and travel.
North and Central America--United States--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--Philadelphia
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 14-1254 SPP 123; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, 1982.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...
Identifier (local): 14-1254_blake_barnes_1982_side2
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:116404