Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, side 5.

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[Blake] My closest Roman Catholic
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hierarch is Cardinal Willebrands [Johannes, Cardinal Willebrands] of the Netherlands.
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He and I were joint chairmen of the
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or co-chairmen of the joint planning committee between the World Council of Churches
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and the Roman Catholic Church for the six years that I was General
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Secretary of the World Council of Churches. I inherited
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something it had begun. The names there are Bea [Augustin, Cardinal Bea] and Visser 't Hooft [Visser 't Hooft, Willem Adolph].
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They were the ones who have known each other for a long time and
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John the twenty-third and Bea and Visser 't Hooft had got the thing
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going. I had the
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inheritance, picking this up.
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I can remember meetings in Milan, in Rome,
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in my apartment in Geneva. All kinds of different kinds of
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meetings. And, I had a
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seventy-fifth birthday greeting from Willebrands not long ago, a year ago now,
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in which he sent me his best wishes,
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Pardon me, dear. He phoned you just the other day. He phoned me the other day from Baltimore.
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Yes. I had sent
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greetings to him because I knew he was in Baltimore, and I couldn't go.
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So we have a personal kind of warmth.
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I had worked on my French before coming to Geneva.
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So that was a very smart thing I found out afterwards.
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Philippe Maury thought I was just great because I thought it was important enough to try to
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work on French, even if I couldn't speak it very well. But, I did speak it at the
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last moment before I came came up to Geneva to be the
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General Secretary. I had put off a reception they had in Grenoble, where I
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was studying, for in my honor. All the Catholic priests and
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the Reformed pastors of Grenoble gathered together. And, we
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discussed ecumenism and theology, ecumenical theology, together in
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French. I was a guest of honor and I was discussing all kinds of matters with them.
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I couldn't do it now. And, I couldn't have done it before. But, I
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did then. But, that is aside from the point.
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We did have this joint working group.
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And, in that we did develop. Joe
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Gremillion [Gremillion, Joseph] was at the time the head of the. What was he the head of, Roswell?
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Social Problems Secretariat. Something like that.
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Was that? Wasn't quite like that.
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He was my, he and Willebrands and then one other,
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Father Arrupe [Arrupe, Pedro] of the Jesuits, whom I met when he was
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in New York for the first time after his election. He came to Fordham. And, I
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was President of the National Council of Churches at the time and sat next to him for three
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lunches running. And, most of the Jesuits could have killed me, I think
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because they all would have liked to have sat and talked to him. But, I was
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non-Jesuit and got a chance to talk to him. In any case, those were
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days in which the Roman Catholic Church agreed
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that the World Council was, and they used the word, "a unique instrument." Now,
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that "unique" is a little interesting word. It isn't just
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another organization. But, it is "a unique instrument," for unity, and that's when
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Pope Paul Sixth and the Uppsala Assembly.
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Paul Sixth just changed. If you compare the Uppsala Assembly with
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the fifty-four Assembly in Evanston.
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They didn't allow Roman Catholics even to cover it in the press room,
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theoretically. They did, but they weren't allowing them to go.
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Am I correct on that? At least, [Robert] Bilheimer and I went out and tried to
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straighten it out, I know, whatever we were doing.
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They had boxes of their own that could be reached over the counter from the regular
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distribution center to the press. And, they
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didn't want it. That was up slightly as. They achieved
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their purpose,
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but it wasn't in the press room. not allowed in the press room. But, that
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kind of thing was going on. And, here Pope Paul gathered
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all the people who are going to be at the Uppsala Assembly in Rome before they came.
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He had read the papers better than most of the people who are going to
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Uppsala himself. And, he, under Willebrands, who was not one of the
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representatives but was there also. He insisted
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upon their participating in the Assembly of the World Council of
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Churches. That's when. There's another man I should mention
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the speech that was made at that Assembly was by a Roman Catholic. No, if I can get
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the name right. You'll have to put it in the transcript of this thing, but
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was it Montini? who was
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a writer. I think.
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Osservatore
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Romano.
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Something like. He is an important
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Roman Catholic Roman journalist and he made a speech.
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Pope Paul scolded him afterwards, and he had never shown him the speech ahead of time. What day is it?
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Even think of showing it to you. You'd have been responsible then.
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but it was it was I say it was one of the best speeches if you want to look up the archives in the World Council
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to look them up and see that speech. It was a great speech.
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I'll just throw in something on the side
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the kinds of decisions you make. A lot of my colleagues want us to have. Who is the man who is
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always in trouble during the Catholics? Kung?
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Hans Kung? I knew I'd get that if I described him right.
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Hans Kung
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They wanted me to invite Hans Kung to Uppsala. I said that is
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nonsense. Don't invite Hans Kung. He's. That's not
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what the Roman Catholics would do. Let me ask Willebrands. So I asked Willebrands
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and he sent us Montini. He's the one he picked out. He's the one you should invite.
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and so on. That kind of relationship we began to have. And, it
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was a combination of new
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position, but new appreciation of each other, in the
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sense. And, I began, for the first time in my life, really to understand
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what happened at the Counter-Reformation, and why the Counter-Reformation
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was as important as the Reformation in terms of what was
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going to happen, ultimately.
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Because the Roman Catholic Church got its belated
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reformation at the Counter-Reformation and became the great church that it
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is.
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And, that is something! What about the pope coming to visit you?
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Coming to visit. That was another
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thing that happened. He was
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invited by the Roman Catholic representing to the United Nations, whose name I've
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forgotten, who was not particularly close to
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the World Council, to come up to visit the
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ILO on their anniversary, fiftieth anniversary like, International
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Labor Organization. And, Willebrands heard the word. And, he went in to see
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Pope Paul. And he, said, "You can't go to Geneva without visiting to the World Council of Churches."
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And, Pope Paul said, "I
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think you're right." So then we made plans for
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him to come. That was an interesting visit.
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Jump ahead a little bit. Shortly after
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that I was dated to be in Lisbon. And, I was treated as if I were
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a pontifical representative. They called on me in my hotel. I had to call on their hotel, that
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sort of thing you know, because the pope had just visited me in Geneva.
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But that kind of situation was a new situation
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and it still is new. I hate when people get discouraged about the progress of
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the ecumenical movement. I say we, in the last twenty years, have been through the most important time
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in a thousand or fifteen hundred years for the unity of the church to be visible.
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And, why should we be discouraged just because of stupid folk
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now cut out, please or
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others aren't getting along as fast as they should.
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[Gillette] Do you do you see any relationship between that new openness with
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Roman Catholicism and the earlier openness? The
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doors you opened with Moscow trip? Was there any relationship at all between
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Orthodoxy in the west and Roman Catholicism in the west
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looking?
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[Blake] Let me take the Vatican position in general, which anybody else should be careful of.
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The Vatican position is that they would like to talk one for one to
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every other church in the world including the Jews and the Muslims and everybody else.
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One for one now, because that gives them the chance to make you come to
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Rome to talk and so on. And, we are stupid
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when we allow them to break it up and do a series of dialogues.
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OK I just.
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Know your question was specifically? Whether or not you feel
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that the earlier trip to Moscow and that door that was opened between
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Protestantism in the West and Eastern Orthodoxy, whether
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that any way influenced Rome? It could have been.
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But you see the Roman situation is that they don't have much of
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anything where the Orthodox, the Russian
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Orthodox church is strong. Is this tape still on?
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You don't want to say anything? We'll turn it off, if you? No.
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I want to. It made that assumption. I'd like you to have you tell about
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the pope coming up to
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your office. Oh, that was a nice one. He came up. I have a picture
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in my study, which, if any of you come to visit us, I will show you, of the pope
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sitting at my desk in Geneva. I am grinning
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because John Taylor [Taylor, John Vernon. John Vernon Taylor, Bishop of Winchester] is taking a picture of the pope sitting in my desk. And behind me
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in the shadow is M. M. Thomas [Thomas, M. M. [Madathilparampil Mammen]] and Willebrands. They are
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the ones. He came up very uncharacteristically talkative as he could
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be after he had been in the
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opening meeting where we received him, and there were speeches. He and I did not
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make speeches but everybody else did.
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I guess.
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Yes. You know, we both made speeches, didn't we? We greeted each other. Yes, he said, "I am"
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He started out,
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"I am
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Peter." That made Visser t'Hooft so mad he didn't hear anybody or anything else
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he said for quite a while. Because immediately the second paragraph, he said, But the
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name I have chosen is Paul. Then he made a good Protestant
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speech from that point on.
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But that was another thing. When he came up into the room
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afterwards.
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He was bubbling over with talk. And, he said, "Oh, I'm like a man who's been in the desert
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without food or water.
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Suddenly, I see an
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oasis.
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There's water and fruit, and I find that kind of thing.
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I think that's one of the most poignant
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You can't be. You can't be angry at men like that. That's amazing! Isn't it?
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When was that? That would be sixty-
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eight. We said, wait a minute,
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when was the World Council meeting? That was during sixty-nine.
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It was. It was the year. It was the after the Assembly
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in Uppsala, which was sixty-eight, sixty-nine, it was
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guess in June. Was that right? Am I right?
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Dates? I don't remember
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That is very interesting.
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Back to Jerry's question
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about the relationship between our relations
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with the Eastern Church, Russian Orthodox Church and
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Rome and the Vatican, Roman to World Council. I'd be interested in your answer to that.
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I'm trying to
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orient myself in time.
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I think it was just after New Delhi.
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When Sharon, John Sharon, who was
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one of our bridges back in the early
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days asked me
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what were my worries.
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One of the worry is that either you or we
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try to play one off the other
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as between Istanbul Rome and Geneva.
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And I said,
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One of the problems is that we put it that
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way as if there are three different,
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units, three different churches
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and if we do it that way, we're sunk.
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We got off on the wrong road. We leave out Jerusalem in that entirely.
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We must not
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tell the eastern churches and Rome that
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they can become competitive for their
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relationship with the Third World, which
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is in Geneva. And, I said, we'll be tempted
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like the dickens. You will be tempted like the dickens.
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And, we will spoil it all. Get in God's way
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if we do it. And,
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he thought that was
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important that I should have mentioned it. And, he came
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back to that several times subsequently about
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people he talked to about it. He said. "We
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almost slipped." And,
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at the time, when the pope and the ecumenical patriarch embraced
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in Jerusalem,
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we almost slipped. And, we didn't make any reference to you. It looked as if
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we were going to hive off together.
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And we're putting pressure on each other to do it and
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we almost slipped.
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We just recovered in time. Now that
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that was all vaguely in the background of our minds then
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I think. And, I believe that
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Willebrands has
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been a straight shooter on that. What does that mean? I think he'd been a straight
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shooter.
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I have the feeling that
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one of the problems. I had or interesting experiences. It
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was a little bit aside of our subject. But when Hesburgh [Hesburgh, Theodore M.]
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got in touch with me one time before they had went to establish the
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school in Jerusalem. And, he said that they wanted to do that and what did
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I think of it. I said for goodness sakes, don't establish it yourselves, you and the pope.
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Get some other people to help you establish it. It won;t be you inviting us to
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go there, as if you had the Holy City yourself.
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because what's what I was saying so we've got money here and other
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people to help start that thing but that
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kind of thing is you can do it either not really liking what you're doing
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or you can do it just on purpose. And I think, there is probably more of the not realizing
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what you're doing than there is really meanness on purpose.
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Vatican Council.
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What was it you said about relations with the Jews?
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[Barnes] What of it? [Blake] That they wanted the one to one.
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[Barnes] Ah yes it was under the one to one menu.
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Is this on?
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[Miller] We'll turn it off, if
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I'm getting fuzzy, Jerry. Let me see if I can straighten it
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out. Turn that off for a minute, please.
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Then I made to the chief rabbi and his associates in
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Moscow.
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We were perplexed as to how much to
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do. We knew we must get into communication with them.
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We had questions raised
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before we went to Russia by our Jewish friends in New York.
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And, we were disturbed because there did not seem to
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be a concern on the part of the
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Soviet delegation in our conferences for the Jews.
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We didn't want to compromise them, but we didn't want to yield to them and their
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hesitations.
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So Walter [Van Kirk, Walter] and I paid them a visit. And,
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I don't remember who we used as interpreter, but I
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know we had a problem with it, and
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we had a report. Not a good report
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but we showed a concern.
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It's one of the unsatisfactory loose ends of the
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deputation.
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I had another experience. And, I don't know what which one it was. I was in Moscow one time
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and with the same concern on my mind. And so, I
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just made it clear to my host whoever it was in the one department
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of the. Russian Orthodox Church that I was
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wondering if I should see a rabbi.
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And, they didn't say any thing more about it. Just raised the question. Next day we're going,
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driving along a street. And, he said. "Would you like to stop at the synagogue?" So, I said. "Yes,
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I would." So we came to the synagogue. The rabbi was there waiting for me.
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And, I asked after him and how things were. Everything was perfect. But, I mean
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that but it was of and a formal
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situation that was worth doing. I mean this we cared about him.
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And, we were able to report back that you had seen the rabbi. And, through the
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good offices of the Russian Orthodox Church, which I think is important too.
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I haven't answered your question. I haven't been thinking about it. I've been listening to Gene.
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I don't know why.
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I think it's partly because they
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are Jewish friends of become very perplexed
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about their own course and their
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relationship to Israel. And, that has
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so absorbed their attention. Ethical
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political. Haven't had much energy left over to
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ask where they're going.
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Isn't part of the problem, Roswell, the lack of clarity
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on what the ecumenical movement is from our point of view, the Christian point of view?
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I live in a town where we have a federation of
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or whatever you call that Council of
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Christians and Jews.
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It means that all that happens is that whenever the Jews want us to do something, there is a meeting.
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Otherwise, there is no meeting. I mean, that is to say, there is nothing done.
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I. My own feeling is that there is a tendency toward that
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in the National Council of Churches now.
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That you don't go to Washington except with the Catholics and the Jews.
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But they go separately.
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Yes. I. That is something that I didn't
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achieve for my agenda when I was there, to get
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people to understand the distinction between ecumenical and inter-
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faith, and interreligious and Christian unity. This is one of the things
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that really is hard to live with. And, you get
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misinterpreted all the time when you don't do it. I remember vividly on the
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civil rights thing in the sixties
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after. It was Alabama in
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May, where the hoses and the dogs. And, the dogs were shown on
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television that really made people in the north realize what was going on down
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there. I noticed that Wallace was re-elected governor.
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So nothing changes except he has changed a little. He's
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got the negro votes at least. Black votes, I should say.
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but the. Then. Now, where I lost myself.
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Good. What was I saying here? You've got
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sympathy. The difference between interfaith. Well, this is
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I was vice chairman of the new Committee on Religion and Race for the National Council of
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Churches in the spring of sixty-three.
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Lichtenberger [Lichtenberger, Arthur C.] , the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, was the chairman. He became
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ill just that time, called me up and said, "I
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can't. My doctor won't let me do anything. Will you take charge of this thing?" And, I found myself
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by the middle of the month running the
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Committee on Religion and Race in the National Council of Churches.
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I wander into a meeting there the first one about the
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middle of June and we already had our staffing in
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being, management and
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Bob Spike [Spike, Robert W. [Robert Warren]]. Bob Spike was the head. And then had his assistant and one other very
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young man. I've forgotten who he is now. He was the one, who
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spoke to me as I came in the room. He says, we've got an invitation to go to Washington on July fourth
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for a CORE demonstration. And, I says, You'd better
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find out about it, because we may have to go. That's all I said as I
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walked into the room. It's always your best friend's mother among the reporters who ask the
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hardest questions. And, after I had made my speech, George Dugan, who was at the Times in those days. I had
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said, among other things in my speech, we have decided it's time for us to
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stop talking. We've been saying the right things since nineteen twenty. But, we don't do a thing
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about it. George says, "What are you going to do?" I
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felt I couldn't afford to have egg on my face permanently.
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So I said, Well, there's going to be a
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a demonstration in Baltimore on July Fourth, maybe we'll have to go there.
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I saw them all begin to write like this. I knew I had struck something.
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So, when I came back, I told them, the boys, that they better look that up because I
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thought I had to go to Baltimore on July fourth. That's the deep planning I had,
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in one of the more important actions of my life.
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Riding on the Ferris wheel when your mother wasn't watching. But I went down after that
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meeting to the Statler Hilton and
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met with [John Francis] Cronin was it on the National Catholic Welfare at that
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time? Cronin and Tannenbaum [Tannenbaum, Marc H.]. And,
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they said to me this is the real cooperation
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of Roman Catholic and Jew that I have run into. Look this is a Protestant country.
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You've got to take the lead in this thing, but we'll give you support anywhere you need it.
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That was. That was that point.
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The problem was great. he said. If the bishop is impossible, we have lay
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people we'll get to for you, as warming as that kind of attitude grassroots.
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Now you can you can do something when you've got that kind
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of a relationship that is clear. I mean they knew I wasn't about to be a Jew. And, they weren't about
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to be Protestant or anyway. But we did from then
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on, do something for quite a while in terms of that
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part. We did get arrested in Baltimore [Gwynn Oak Amusement Park, July 4, 1963]. And, I got my picture all over the world, And got elected the
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General Secretary of the World Council of Churches on account of the picture, I think, more than anything else.
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[Gillette] Had you had any previous indication the Holy Spirit would peculiarly use New York Times
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reporters to motivate you? [Blake] Well, they were pretty good to me always
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in New York earlier. Lately, they haven't been very good.
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They think that the most important thing in the Vatican is the church in Darien.
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where they don't make reservations because God takes care of the hotel for them.
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When
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What's left over?
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We still have conversations.
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What do you want to cover? And, what do you want to do with
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these tapes? What have. What has
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happened today that has a real
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interest to you that somebody should follow up on
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with us? Or will you? Or on his
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own?
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I
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think one of the big advantages that today you're seeing two of the nine
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leading people on the delegation, two of the delegation, and here they're
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reflecting on their twenty-five, twenty-six years later on the
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action that took place in nineteen fifty six. I think this is the
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extremely significant fact that
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it seemed from the records and in your earlier conversation that the meetings
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were very conversations were very positive then. And, you both feel
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that indeed they were positive and are positive. That this
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is this is a good beginning.
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So what.
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I think that the question that we really have left open is How do we do it
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now? Because,
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with the present attitude of the
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Vatican, we don't have the same
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situation that we had under Bea and Willebrands.
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With the
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Orthodox,
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from what I hear, I have not had directly from them. I have seen
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or words, so on. But the Orthodox I hear, keep hearing reports, that they're
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restive in the World Council of Churches. I don't
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know why or what that is all about. But, they've always been somewhat restive
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because the culture of the World Council hasn't been their culture.
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It isn't an Orthodox body. And, they're used to going to Orthodox bodies.
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But I don't know just how we move.
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I don't think there's any value in multiplying bilateral
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except in so far as the bilateral conversations
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in the churches represent a necessary
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clearing away of debris between the cultural and political relationships.
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Does that make sense to you? Who is in
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creative consultation
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with Willebrands from our cohorts
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except Visser 't Hooft? Bishop who? Visser 't Hooft. Visser 't Hooft. I don't think
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they are very close. All right.
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I don't think they are. I'm not sure. I think you are, Roswell. I'm not saying they are very close. I think I'm pretty close to him.
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but I don't. I'm not close to us, though.
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Are you, are you, are you talking with him creatively? This
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kind of question.
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No no I haven't had a chance to do that.
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Who else can do this? I guess Paul Crew is as busy as any American.
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He has him down in Baltimore at the moment or did have him last week.
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Do you? or maybe you don't see this from where you sit,
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because of, because of where you sit, but
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I get the feeling that while the whole ecumenical movement in dialogue between Roman
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Catholic and Protestant and Protestant and Orthodox, while it may be at a
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quiet stage at the hierarchical level, hierarchy being Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox
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that it is going gungho in the
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grassroots. In spite of an apathy to
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whatever the hierarchy is doing. Do you? I don't know whether you two
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really because of where you sit get to see this. I don't see it anywhere
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except in the local. There are all kinds of wild and beautiful things going on in the
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local scene. I think the nuclear business is doing. One other thing, that's
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universal. And, it is going so far so fast. No matter what the
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hierarchy does. It couldn't stop it if it wanted to. It is.
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this is the thing they sent a message to, right?
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What is the relationship between that and the theological
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ecclesiological factors of ecumenical
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report and institutions? That the latter may or may not be relevant.
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Right. Who is
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discussing that question? I don't think anybody is.
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I think the people are just going ahead.
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They're praying together, celebrate together, they're working together, and they're doing it together.
speaker
And, nobody is really stopping. In my activities recently have been where
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people are interested and see my name in connection with it, and
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ask me to do something. The PCS this week.
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Next week, I go to Iona College on
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Bread for the World and nuclear disarmament. I think is the combination of the subject there.
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and that is happening at the church to which we,
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I belong. What's that? I mean, peace seems to be the thing. Peace is one
speaker
long and didn't mean to say oh well. Peace, certainly. Well,
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it's nuclear relationship to peace, too. And its the reaction against the stupidities of our
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government. Yes, it is. That seems to be true in Europe too. Everybody's
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is stupid.
speaker
And, the dangerous stupidity in the Middle East. Yeah, that's another one.
speaker
No one had time to write so many things as I wrote at one time.
speaker
You've got to have it, and you have a wife who makes you lazy.
speaker
Well, that's right. Forget her.
speaker
Who today is doing that kind of thing that we used to try to
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do? That's the trouble.
speaker
Appraising the state of the churches and incidentally the state of the nation and our
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contemporary culture. Who did that? Did I?
speaker
I tried to. I think you both did. I think this is what people are moaning about. I think we both did.
speaker
We don't have the leadership.
speaker
People are turning to the New Yorker or to the op ed
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page of The Times occasionally. Occasionally. Our
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commentary. Secular sources
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for the analysis of where we are.
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And, they're not expecting to get any insights from the churches.
speaker
They're seeing. Are we on the tape now?
speaker
Oh, boy! I'd forgotten that. Al right. That's good. Keep going. I
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I didn't mean. I somebody saw the red light.
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They're seeing
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a prophetic leadership on the nuclear business and our
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destiny from Roman Catholic leadership, that
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seems to decided that something needs to be done. And, they're not asking whether it's expedient or
speaker
not. And, there's something refreshing about it. And, I welcome it. I do too.
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and I think that
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a good many of our friends that are just running scared
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are becoming increasingly confused as they are running scared. And don't see where they are going. That's a
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terribly arrogant and supercilious attitude to take. Things aren't what they used to be, Roswell. They aren't!
speaker
Good old days!
speaker
They aren't what they used to be. They are worrying about how the mail's going to
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get there. Yeah. M-A-L-E? M-A-I-L. Oh,
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postal service. I think that is the thing I mean. something terrible.
speaker
That our government is spending money on finding out how to keep
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on delivering mail after the first nuclear hit.
speaker
And, it's doing it. We are spending money.
speaker
Your taxes are being spent for that. They should all know and
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I won't say who but people when they do hit the papers.
speaker
The papers in the first place don't know anything about the normal
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churches, the mainline churches, as I have tended to call them. I don't know whether they are the main line any more,
speaker
but we hear
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about the extreme right and Jerry Falwell and
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the electronic church and all of these things.
speaker
Boy, electronic church, you could really write a check for five dollars
speaker
once a year. Why, you can really be something. Guarantee your salvation. Yes.
speaker
That's exactly it. But,
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And one who shall be nameless here, in my judgment
speaker
was on the wrong side of the question
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of tax exemption for Bob Jones College.
speaker
I don't know who he means, do you? No, well I'll never put.
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because he's on the right side of most of those question. And, it's
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not out of wrong-headedness.
speaker
It's wrong, out of wrong-headness. It is not timidity. It's not timidity. No,
speaker
it's not timidity; no. It's a legalism that I found that
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over the years when we were working
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close together, rather than one working and not the other, was that
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he could be influenced more easily than anybody that I knew of.
speaker
If you just asked what he was thinking about when he
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said this.
speaker
On COCU, one time I came back from Europe and the, up in Boston, Cambridge or some
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place. He was wanting us to
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having a terrible time trying to get a final plan of union worked out. Then
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let everybody with a constitution everything that everybody approve it or not approve it.
speaker
I said, Look! That's the way we would do it. They won't do it that way.
speaker
You can't possibly. Then they went and did it the way Paul would do it, and that was even worse.
speaker
Well, now you fixed all of them. I fixed them all.
speaker
I'm just agreeing with Roswell. Things aren't believed to me.
speaker
Well, lest this sound like
speaker
terrible arrogance or pathetic nostalgia. Let me tell you that
speaker
Visser 't Hooft and I, on his frequent visits here, infrequent
speaker
visits after he retired, I'd retired would come up to the country. And, we'd have
speaker
several days, Did you really? not under pressure, to go over things. And,
speaker
he would send chapters of his memoirs up to me for the periods when
speaker
we were like you and I on this Russian trip. The only
speaker
extant and surviving participants in some things.
speaker
And, we used to make out a little agenda on slips of paper of things that
speaker
we wanted to be sure and touch while we were together.
speaker
One time he came up, I had an agenda.
speaker
Three items and he had, and
speaker
we swapped our papers. And,
speaker
one of the items I had
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leaders, nostalgia
speaker
and
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he had the same and two others, and we swapped these papers and looked at each other in
speaker
shock. And, he said, here after one hundred
speaker
years we've been this accumulation of items for our
speaker
agenda. And he
speaker
laughed and shook our heads, both of us. Well, we agree
speaker
we ought to talk about it. And
speaker
what do we mean. We have misgivings about our judgment;
speaker
Partly it was because the leaders when we were young, were older. We were
speaker
in awe of them conceded them too much authority.
speaker
Partly, it's our frustration of
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age. And, it was better when we were younger.
speaker
And, can we get an objective appraisal?
speaker
And, so we began to swap notes on
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it. And, I made up a list of the
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leadership of the various features of the church's activities and
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institutional life through my
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experience.
speaker
And he did the same. And
speaker
then we said, "Don't gut it!"
speaker
They don't have the stature that they used to have.

In collections

Details

Title: Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, side 5.
Description: Blake and Barnes in conversation on their 1956 trip to Moscow as president and assistant general secretary, respectively, of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Recorded in the board room of the Presbyterian Historical Society, November 9, 1982. Also present, Jean Ware Hoyt Blake, William B. Miller, and Gerald Gillette. Conversation touches on anti-communism of the early 1950s, Blake's interactions with R. W. Scott McLeod and Joseph McCarthy. Includes account of Willem Visser 't Hooft's work with the Roman Catholic church.
Creator: Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985. (speaker)
Barnes, Roswell P. (Roswell Parkhurst), 1901-1990. (speaker)
Date: 1982
Type of resource: sound recording-nonmusical
Genre: sound recordings
Form: audiocassettes
Extent: 3 audiocassettes : 1 7/8 ips, mono.
Language: English
Subject names: Blake, Eugene Carson, 1906-1985.
Barnes, Roswell P. (Roswell Parkhurst), 1901-1990.
McLeod, Scott, 1914-1961.
McCarthy, Joseph, 1908-1957.
Visser 't Hooft, Willem Adolph, 1900-1985.
Topics: Anti-communist movements.
Geographic subjects: Moscow (Russia)--Description and travel.
North and Central America--United States--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia--Philadelphia
Rights status: IN COPYRIGHT - NON-COMMERCIAL USE PERMITTED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC-NC/1.0/
Physical location: ARCHIVES 14-1254 SPP 123; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA
Related item: Eugene Carson Blake and Roswell P. Barnes in conversation, 1982.--https://catalog.history.pcusa.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumb...
Identifier (local): 14-1254_blake_barnes_1982_side5
PID (Persistent Identifier): islandora:116390