Really that's him but I was a good youth leader. When I knew a claim are made up with more

money in Prospect church. I instituted a church newspaper.

I had a church newspaper.

expect that we would have I also would. It was that church. If

it's the newspaper just for that particular

church? That's right. because I have properties of the

the that you cause it was quote prospect.

Use of thing by the prospect

of my . each each area, the

woman society I gave a special prospecting name to that

It was a unique piece of literature.

I learned to

I learned to apply my

my knowledge, my gifts

to the jobs that I had. What else did you know that he had a part

of a scholarship to Yale. Yeah, I did tell him. where that. Journalism.

Yeah that's what I was studying

with journalism even when I was in high school.

So why

So this is the first time that

youth. Well, I guess a camp was youth really. I had

no desire to be a senior pastor. Why not? I wanted to be an evangelist.

And you evangelize your own people? Yeah. Absolutely!

And, that was why we found that the Youth Time evangelism

scholarship.

Which is Time for Youth, evangelism and

fellowship. Jane is the one who gave me that name.

Youth Time Evangelism. You were leaving in the morning and you

went downstairs and said I've got to have a name.

for this place. You've got to have a name

for it. And that I was giving Lisa a bath, maybe Vicki.

I remember having her in the bathtub

and saying, "How about Youth Time Evangelism and Fellowship? He was going out the door.

He said, "That's It!."

She gave "Youth Time," and I added "Evangelism."

is yeah but should then be proud to say. Well above.

As I saw that above there was no low Integra connection between us and

the bright but he didn't ask your

friends. So. Youth

because that was the way to shape and their eyes are was one of the news

about is of them all over my

education through the summer can't personally. Perfectly proper It was a Usenet.

He was. I didn't know that primarily

primarily at the camp. But then he broke it chipped.

There was basically was interested in the use of the

can

absolutes. But people that were converted to our

meetings. Eighty percent of work. Were you there

got saved in our meetings because statistics through and

what seventy percent of the decisions that are made her cry

survey before twenty one years of age.

And the other reasons why members and what if your reason for me doing so

when the amount of people.

And the other things if you think you find. Being a senior pastor confining

or depressing

that

the thought of it. When you made a choice to her that. I mean did you want to care

about that at all.

No sense of humor. And then anything which is us could get into I think

the

kids and Percy was like that Prissy was just then and.

The first time that they have program.

Let's really find you calling Pat they would get some laughing.

First he

did and the time there was

an element. Prior to television.

Prior really almost.

What I just cry.

As ever payment factor. Even Times

of London.

Movie deals already.

There was an entertainment factor because this was something outside of

the ordinary that they could go to that was like I entertainment when it was on.

Actually it was there was really somebody.

There was a. He was. Was dramatic. Repairs.

So I don't know that I had an

element of entertainment.

But it was just the moons of contact.

And then we exchange. That time with deadly serious getting

people laugh then perfectly with the first line. Because

further with my Dad The Caller Yeah.

He didn't train.

Well we are bring back on that and that

they did the helpful because one of the things here is it is

that there is an interesting confluence of the sacred. And

the seriousness

of eternal issues of salvation. You think of

Christianity and other religions around going back centuries

of very the most of way things and then now we're having something that seems to be

at odds with that the culture of entertainment show this isn't fun humor. And

there are overlapping here and how they overlap is going to point to point a curiosity. For example.

The discussion of Percy Crawford sounds

like earlier. Grampa share that

he was

a bit.

Dictatorial or a strict. One another's arrived versus personnel as the other

was

dictatorial. It was demanded a yard it was triggered

the man was own. James. How could this man who has all

serious attributes integrity

Dick's Tauriel learned all

that get healthy also be funny and how did you guys

find things to laugh about. Those are color.

He was even creating the can be very funny.

One instance he was the quick that was singing and it was that your guy here that

you know I

have brothers of my socks.

He reached over while I'm singing pulled my leg up

and Lagardere. Well. So look what I backed up. The

Guy Gardner was up for behind me.

And all the guys began to laugh. Because he was very fine air.

One know that other bit of the children only would never do

that but they say that the

first twenty minutes the guy was saying I want everybody else. Saying I had

Let's Make a plan my grandmother die. To set down to settle down

and not land. During

my serious thought because it's

great

that you know. OK I'm going to I'm going to play a little bit interpretive and they're pushing on both of

the

here. One of the description. Again of the modern world in the post World War

One World is this liberation from all of their constraints from from tradition. Is

there any chance that part of what was happening here was our grandmother was so

there Tori and she'd pull your ear if you were give you a whipping in church. Your father away.

If you laugh and this was like.

Listen we can laugh and be in church and jail time. I think you're right.

That's like to camp. Making fun. Saturday night or C.N.N.

he

could be true. Fun tourch could be fun. Worshipping God is

that Saturday night. They put on a Sunday

show and wear a thousand and ten. Let's sit out in front of the

big. Pay for the slack when there are

lights and it was not that they could be offended you know.

And then some kids would be down there and they would do funny

tricks and him. Funny

thing for an hour. And the kids with this list Six Flags and they thought well

we're for fun. And that's the first night they arrive. Since Sunday night.

They were Sunday morning. They were struck with

this very

serious Sunday morning when they were saying that it

outta

go cold when.

So the Sunday morning was

serious. Oh yes it is the music is

as well it gets so you are finding the culture you have artist. Was

about aligning a way to. It's about

details. Again just for curiosity see from the historical perspective.

There was a sense of your parents and grandparents and great parents were part of a more

serious and something. The term Victorian nineteenth century comes to

mind but that you wanted to

embrace some of them aren't spirit but in a way that wasn't degrading to

your face but I have to incorporate here that my father had such a sense that you know

where he was so funny that we could never be serious for a day

on my son that way but your generation here the service. All

of your I read I don't want to say that at home. It

was serious and when we my parents would entertain so much it would all be funded my

dad couldn't think of anything

but plenty of OK. Can I ask a question when someone is. Let me just sort of term.

As we're describing this person crop of this world

here. Heard a

term like Victorian or nineteenth century or

progressive or. What can you give more of a description of what. You. He was the older

generation that preceded you. Not necessarily here specific father or mother.

But what how did it here to you have grown up in the twenty's and thirty's

and Coming of Age in the forty's.

It was quite a transformation then my legs to move

from. This is asleep. All

those concerts form of worship.

To be introduced to the message church. I mean

the faith can be there or when the whole new we are

or aren't familiar area. To

make nothing like that as I told you when I went on that program it's to

have been praying to God as if he was a neighbor or federally number. Tell

me was opening up a whole new world. And when we came to Buffalo.

From Philadelphia.

Registers New York had really

knocked. No programming that we were

very familiar with and we brought

that program and I we

had what I think. Attracted people plus my radio broadcast.

Well placed a little.

Oreo of worship understanding to the people of western New

York. And then

time he feels to some extent

that. I'm still trying to imagine an

older type of Christianity Protestant. Nineteenth century America. And

we started. That maybe at the turn of the

century and. And how what. You know how a younger generation

new generations if we want to be different. They've got a clear. Psychological

profile of how it's always been and then they define again.

That what they're going to be. Sounds like at infusing this element of joy.

Time to evangelism and worship. Rises and innovation. I But.

Looking for a little more help for the other generations look

to take

comparison. You know I'll have and most

unusual of course the

word purgatory. We have a different paradigm. Since the

presumes their cars come in.

You understand what I mean when I say praise music. OK Well for

the moment today not.

Is not anything but government today with the band that there is

that much of a break between my generation. And this generation.

The priests. Our generation was from less big story and kind of

an approach of Jersey. To this programming kind of

church rather just looking for a little more description from you on that all of that or

what

what preceded you. You know platform for our time we're trying or floor

time when he is that can do to time. And we did

three fluid campaign. But you didn't like states and. I went to

that broadcast to three same men who didn't

say he came out they sent. Shall We Dance.

The music was so unique and was so relevant to the

secular

music as the right record just like today

need the kind of music that was being used in the church

is resolves against a secular time. In the word mother were the

church has become more secularized

secular community has affected the church more on the church affecting

those sectors but that is a blast. They've lost a real praise to God.

Now it's just a bunch of a setting where about us.

Well see I'm trying to again I'm trying

to I'm part of a generation and I know what I perceive me but I think

that the midst of people trying to understand about location. SATTAR and Percy Crawford are your partner.

I'm still I got the four forty three four. But can you describe.

And I appreciate you talking about

the Catholic formalism of Episcopalian tradition. Can you help me understand I

can with Percy proper care and the whole gang. All sitting up in here. And I could interview hundred times as well.

What was what preceded you. Because of course a younger generations like mine.

And music do you have it all as all fashions. So we're trying to can you tell you some

good the song per lose I don't remember saying. I do understand I'm trying to get a more

focused sure of what. Besides three

four engine and certainly was too simplistic. Simplistic and leads

to can I find is something you magic only within a church setting and women that

stick to me that I would say to Syria and of a sudden they

can see the choruses. In three four times. They too

are happy.

Now where there is a little amount that you

know that helps Thursday is a very crux of all of it helps to explain this by

saying

is that is what is directed in worship

God. Whereas the Gospel choruses and gospel

music that came in after the twentieth century

began late. And then in the nineteenth. But really in

the twentieth century that music was testimonial Right exactly that

is began with Billy Graham and it began with the the Sunday.

While movie. Testimony of the meaning was an evolutionary I just

really well are. What our relationship to God is what God's relationship

the mainland. That's the big cruise God that's

really

what.

So that's helpful. That's really helpful and sounds like a lot of it does come

for you to some I'm through. Is it that you saw these. Through the use of

another type of music that reflected a certain type of relationship to God When each other and then.

This was a new form of music that expect a different relationship to mean we've got

another we have a and spiritualism. To go.

As we had an experience. To dogma of the music

was Douglas. Prior to this knowledge experience.

You mention a term fun. Can you elaborate on a logic Leo.

Looking back what this fund. Me. Why why.

Here that my life there but no better word is experience.

OK. Because the because Rice is not because life is one experiences outside a church is not

just serious and it's also fun it's things that happen. They don't necessarily have to

be dark in corrupted by men knocking on the door.

Coming home from bar thing here. But part of Lady spirits is funny couldn't fuse

that back in order to went to a greater extent.

The experience of people prior to the twentieth century was

coming part might go like

this for our core things in the news and weather was

suddenly was something else. The rest of the week was here. And I

experience of those I'm of the twentieth century. I was brought a recognition

that Christianity is a slave by day personal experience.

Based upon glow.

And it's what you may say so you wanted

to bear with me here. I'm just trying to clarify

you that your music and protest and worship. That was later in the three

the four for the three for shift the dogma to the spirit that you wanted

to

make safe less compartmentalize and more real. And so that the. The

way you live life. Monday

through Saturday and when there is humor there's other things that have. Life doesn't have to be completely

set aside and and. And then there's worship which is a completely

right to same thing you pray in tongues to God every day just like you did

and send your art. Edouard WHERE OR and therefore if the church

carries over the week then we can carry over to

church then we began to join the began to have

devotional print the day with in

print for people. Yes that was a

big step but still going to be difficult for people to and they're curious about is how

did a lot of the motifs of entertaining and fun and laughter. Find its

way into church I tell you are right for you guys.

We were all gods are communication age. We moved from the industrial age.

We were already to the communication.

OK. But what I'm getting at here is a little bit is there is a common interpretation. But

that incorporating radio and and

entertainment what other forms of modern media and technology into worship.

Where only a technique. And then there's another news. Or that is more technique as a way

of saving souls. Then there is a some question as to what extent. Was

it to a reflection

of changing views of God into the human. What it means to be a Christian.

And it sounds to me like it was for you with the Buffalo Christian Center and your spirit is in

the sort of thing Firstly Crawford. Was it had a substance to it that went deeper than

that it was part of the desire to he compartmentalize the Christian

faith into bringing fun into worship in a church. You were also bringing

your open have to bring church. Into the rest of the world.

Every day experience.

It just experiencing God every day instead of just on Sunday.

I think our use of the

word. Rose is probably over emphasized in

this Berger view. Where the word experience we're. Better.

The start or words to

you because I felt that was the

pivot. When you start to think that if one has claimed requests like it was this.

Ted

least serious with great Simmonds we heard. But then there's Saturday night which

was so rare yes. Out laughing it tilts of the same people who

are on the platform. During the week. They were making fun

and children the

kids with get there Saturday. And they would go over this flange time.

And relax is see

the same people if they had they would see em the plaster you

wanted to put it another way. If you wanted to change.

The is proud was Protestant Christian church. Some of it more fully

reflected the the. The broader range of human. About.

That's Rob Liefeld miles per hour. Having to jump ahead

to having a Saturday night round I was saying it's OK to be a human being

because God made us as human beings and human beings are either always the

who and we don't have to pretend that we don't do those things. And that was the way he was a very

good by knowing the rockets challenging them to be segregated.

But that started the week which was very smart.

But it didn't start with the deadly serious than the Morning. They staggered Saturday night

with mine and

that the other were probably broken come to

London. The suburb in that was the culmination of that week mark in the beginning that

we were then the you know it when the car later. We're coming. I don't.

The people

are Berbers

around and we've got to

about whatever.

OK.

It's June seventeenth. There's a again I hope the Celtics a win tonight.

And we're going to. Cup.

And just a minute here. Down and buckle return. Florida.

And talking

about the days of the buffalo Christian Center between nine hundred forty

seven for the early phase in the four does move to Buffalo and the like nine

hundred forty seven.

I'm doing OK We're back at it. Here we are. And they do a

pick up

Graham. I was just saying that. In preparation for going

to Buffalo and being were church work in general.

Having visited so many churches, day after day, with Crawford, gave me a view

various denominations were. What their idiosyncracies, if you will,

Might be so I was open to understand the trick

seen a lot better than a subsidy.

Listeria kids had something to do in Buffalo with the

list you have got started. Interdenominational an area where I am.

Listening to work with the pastors knowing what their mindset

was OK. And the reason you got this experience working with Prissy Crawford.

Was because of the because you would be mostly busy in the churches or all of it

because he was working. He would go now ready for this to nomination meeting or never in this congregation.

It's probably point a real curiosity I know it has been in my research.

What we're here experience. Your experience of the secrecies of

the

different denomination world or. You're going to abuse up except for and

so see the need for

recommitment which were in the Wesley

him.

The dilemma nations such as the Free Methodist the West the members

that mere legged Methodist. All of that I'm. The assurance of

salvation is also when you enter those churches. You had larger

responses than when you went to some that were Calvinistic for insulin and.

I've not noticed in the in the air around the nation a lot of.

Segment as well as in The Independent

Baptist group. They were very defensive

about their independence and.

How might that manifest itself it would manifest themselves and they would

not invest in the in normal ways they would invest

in our reloader missions. Budgets for instance.

They were as I said before. They were suspicious

of national and world or national groups such as World Vision's new surprised.

And they were very selective in their mission tell Rich in fact.

But they were quite substantial when

the supply of independent missions.

So when he said he didn't invest normally You mean

like give me

those nominations you know do not reach out to interdenominational missions

like like.

OK. Tell me the Mysterians. At this point in the

1940's how they function. Well. And why I am not a rich man I really

I said do you

live in western New York. The.

The Mainline the nominations had their minister and. But they were very

integral. And there are many of those men felt like they won the hot summer ship

with a larger group of people. So we became the means

whereby we would have ministers

meetings and invite and outstanding speaker to come and see

the ministers themselves. We often in. Are

rough men like Stephen Ofer. Probably the best. X. files

under of our generation. He would come and

he really speak to the ministers

and feed them spiritually.

OK. So when. So with Percy Crawford you worked

with Mysterians. And then I'll post

although I just became a kid with different kinds of ministers. But

he would go away. Maybe nothing. We would be if we would

be undertaken at the last year's

house prior to the meeting we would go there and have supper. And I would talk

with the minister ordered sit and listen while Crawford would talk because you have

a sense you can get a feeling of Churchill work. So

that when you're saying to them he got to Buffalo he had the idea of sounding and then hysteria.

You know how do the necessity.

I guess that brings us to a question that is sort of out there that we haven't addressed yet.

When you were with Percy Crawford. Did you go and

visit churches who were identified as fundamental. And even Jellicoe or.

Or did you get invited to mainline the barrel or just May ninth it was

a broad segment.

Run the main thing about Crawford was the fact that he was a

radio personality. And those people knew that those

ministers knew that their people were listening. They wanted to meet.

Crawford in

person. Did the problem

of conservative orthodoxy. Versus liberal.

Narn ist manifest itself during

Percy was well aware that in that he got caught in the

make shouldn.

Debates when he was in seminary himself. He was a Christian.

Yes. And he was aware that he. Trying to think who they yell a follow

up is a huge period. Well about another

great person proper It was well aware of the debate.

But you. How did how did Percy Crawford. Managed not to getting tangled

it simply was a gospel preaching that's all he would gotten

to but it didn't. It wasn't front center enough during the forty's that.

Know that he was saying oh you can't come here one of the bible bashing.

Evangelicals mainline. We we believe in a broader gospel have that kind of never came

up because he was such an outstanding spokesman.

Comfort was unique in that his messages were

sharp this message just would never Malema half hour and forty

minutes that allowed him to learn to be a twenty

minute

segment with an hour ago an hour and a half service the average length of service ruined by

Governor

half. So that. Live a Tasia and took about fifteen minutes

twenty minutes. Our musical section took about twenty minutes to half.

To have our then he took that out

so you can. Can you tell me.

So we between with nine hundred forty seven and nine hundred forty nine. You had a tenure as

a

use leader at Prospect.

Perhaps that gnostic down to Baptist Church and a flip. Can you tell me about how

many numbers that were in the church was it that sounds like that I'd even delegate

or fund in the West or

it was a conservative Baptist Church. The Conservative Baptist of arbitration.

That was the a belief that was up and causes nomination the conservative that that's

right that's right I'm Dr doctor. Oh.

Oh well as a an officer in the Conservative Baptist.

Missions. Society. So that he was. It was a strong

conservative Baptist.

Really a problem of

the. Now. Grampa this is your first time.

Coming to Buffalo and it. What did you see when

you looked at the

social religious landscape of Buffalo did you see a Catholic city did you see

a steel

city. What. What did Buffalo. What was it like

and what is you strategized youth outreach. What did you view as

your opportunity or

obstacles. Number. During that two year period. I was on a single charge.

And I was not enter into it or going nomination will work I

will however the Baptists. In western New York.

Is a loose. Group that met.

Quarterly call the part of the goal

of Baptist. Young People's Association. And I was called upon.

I was called upon to be the song leader and platform man.

Because I was really probably the

only one that was here only injured in a minute or that was an even examination all of that was going

on congregational right on his two years that's right.

What can you can you help. Recreate for us.

What Buffalo the city. Before OK what will slow march with the church. I heard it.

But also the city was like Is still be a

hard thing the rematch and because they go to the point out of population.

That's what was the

Bible into an ethnic areas.

Spanish that were it Tahlia Irish Catholic.

And some bourbon.

Protestant British. It wasn't

like a or doctor. These days it's Act They use the term angry. You know.

Yeah. That's that's what I had not actually I pursued. But

from my standpoint. I recognized that there was

a sense of isolationism.

In among the churches that you can depend in the back as

George's isolation. Desire.

Here we are a single congregation. We want to be left alone to do our world eventually no was in

the corporate desire to reach the community. And that's what

I immediately sensed was mooted there. OK.

So if we can paint to take that apart a little bit. Where is

the be remember help. When you say Spanish do you mean Puerto Rican he

means Hispanic or

basically Puerto Rican Cuban OK. But not

Haitian Haitian there's mark down here in Florida. We had no vacation. OK.

But

so was it mostly in the

urban core. In the mid late forty's. That was

Irish Catholic in the different ethnicities tell you

in polish the new the decentralization

of the population. Have already begun.

So that prospect church. Have the seeds of its

demise already at that time which was a downtown church and was surrounded

by them. By the Spanish community. It was a black.

OK.

What can what. Church and they've seen is a thousand. Yet. It was

a topic. Having that instead.

Are there.

OK now. Buffalo is known as a working

class city. And also has a Catholic said. Do you want to time up with non-citizen.

I mean.

Was how Catholic. Was Buffalo and totally dominant. You thought that it

was the dominant faith. There's rather not a cathedral

Saturday grow there. Knew how to close in go there and they also

the bishop had a head of an outstanding residence on the main level

where Avenue mainline St Louis

were always consulted for political questions are

moral questions.

OK. Presence. What was bustling

primary industry or industries that kept people

working for more company. And what if Ford Motor Company happened but they

had an assembly

line. Now. And they made more

results and shover may also be a presence.

To do that to the largest come like a complete assembly or just

partial like at and Jim there. No I think it was a production. Place.

So cars rolling

off about them on the slope times. I misspoke.

I think a lot for having Harrison or a Raider OK so.

So they facts are related sure. And there was a huge

Chevrolet. Plant in the heart of

Buffalo called on Delavan Lebanon but I've you know I was not

in what they actually met in fact

less than

when he was in Western Electric Company. Bubba's another big company.

Western

Electric. And it was a rough table service a lot I was a diverse. Base.

OK. Yes it's a good one to steal that debt and the studio that for

example

still preserve the shale. I see it when I get on the train the mainline.

In Philadelphia where that now we're waiting for the train Lackawanna still works.

That's right. Is our rails. Back. So that's the deal and others am

still production. Huge companies. Another without prior little

prior to my going there in New York. Is it was a mill

the. Place where flour mills

were fairly diverse. Yet Pitchford

was coal and coke was just a Coke is a.

And then still production.

And that's about it and it turned out a whole deal. But so that Alfie will have gone through the

history of Philadelphia. For course with really diverse. There's no

single person that's one of the theories is that

what

kept him from the dramatic ups and downs. It's perpetrators is a

different feeling. That's a different

feeling from. The Asian electronics which are in not.

The populations. Remote mostly blue

collar middle class lower middle class people working

in most fields not a succulent should a bus load with mostly. Again.

Was working class Absolutely. OK. And then lower

middle class. Moving into homes. Actual In that time period. Well built

aircraft which may have a top hers

or was a huge thing out there are faults

and when you think a buffalo you have to really mentally clue or present to

it becomes.

Were there other sister paint this picture a post-war Buffalo. A little more.

When you moved there. The book. Both of you moved there.

What else. When we would open a newspaper.

June seventeenth. Nineteen forty eight. What

other celebrity local celebrities might have captured. Like local.

One of what else is out there in the public. What was their society section

that was very trendy was all right not to meet

him and they were real girls on the heart. It was an art college. There. And I

love whole area and there was a whole area right near the city was very

bohemian like you would compare it to to whom York

City's graduate. So that's what Allen Town of

the time to let you in the scale

barrier of and we have a festival every year. Now on top

and was Alan Wood was that a wealthy. Well where was what was this

national every duster city has fashionable section down the way and

over mansions in.

Where did people vacation. Like did they go to Terry did they go to Alec at villain.

On the southern tier. Did they go to.

We were there were too much or most up

was in bed and the tent now left can't think yet right to

ask him any make people just you see there was a

large amusement park

across the border. In the in the I'm very old.

Forget the name of it while but. Everybody was there was like

only autocrats don't be great at all besides I heard. Crystal

Beach they

call. How do you want to talk about the winters.

Was it did it was the weather. Where they pretty rough and then it would was.

You want to mention that. There's a single answer. No.

No the. The media

and people's perceptions are way are arriving

considering the buffalo. Winters. Because most of the.

Linders occurred.

South of the city where there was a small range of hills.

And the stores would come off. Lake Erie and.

Oh it's almost regular They would a lot

of this and south of pounds like Easter I sound

exactly thirty Mansour psychedelic of No that's where

the sketch where I exactly. Which is

probably great you don't give them a break in the summertime and I can

imagine all my heart that was just sounds I may have a sense or reason

I guess he read writing back from my poor probably ten years ago. In January.

And it was the southern Jellicoe I almost

died in the car trip was my first year grad school but it was

a horrible truth there is a hell of a

truck and bus loads up actually wasn't it was a light snow and. That was just like what am

I doing. And one point I was there was driving along. In the

car

hit. Their section adventure of not far from elegant and the

car hit a patch. It was a snow was so big you know less driving through

ahead in the car did a complete three hundred sixty degree OK his stuff. Started back up and it's kept

going but I remember getting home. There was a case to say cars are they going to

the knuckles right

and I

can actually see you in the most on the most part.

The equipment was

so complete. By the road Sarkies that western New

York area. When that attack the situation that you never had

we can't remember more than a couple of times when we were slow to get your

to where

now. There is

a. What were the most prominent sports

celebrities in local Buffalo that you

remember. There were any.

Yes. O.J..

We have. Slater that's the sixty one where we had

a baseball team and hockey team. Even before we had a football.

Off from a new stadium in central Buffalo.

Was

of a major minor a major minor league. AAA team.

For years. Buffalo.

And we still do have calculated that we haven't had a hockey team that was in the

national hockey and people being as close to Canada as they were

or likely a hockey camp. Were there

other entertaining. Figures that were local

Buffalo. Come to mind that were popular were there. Was there were there theatres I you know I

don't know where we had a huge. We had a huge boat that

was steady hitter which was only a hundred yards from the center.

It was still active in one of their area. Wow. Very odd

that seats four thousand

people that show a swap I thought that by itself Peters died out by

the twenties.

Well. Not all of that and the also had a stage. Place.

Mary I get nightclub and. That was on

Main Street. The heart it was a theater district. Probably out of arrest

and where. So that it. People came to the seven

county worry is that they want another Taman to Cape

buffalo. In the seven counties just include western New York.

Not from Teria. That's all it would be any seventy miles. Not even

that a fifty mile circle or a southern CA This

Any chance you might mention with the seven counties. Do they come to mind you I agree

or Allegheny

Erie.

Genesee. And going well. My

rope on terror. Sick.

Did Well done

good.

There is a influential book out a ruckus.

OK.

There is an influenza book about Buffalo. By William Gray

pure about

you and his thesis has a lot of research to support this is

that in the late forty's in through the early fifty's. There was

a panic about juvenile delinquency.

And that. When you study Buckley get a good insight into Americans general concern about

juvenile delinquency crime. Latchkey kids. And

that there were multiple organizations and virtually the buffalo Christian Center

came late enough by the mid fifty's. It just doesn't get mentioned and I even contacted

him and say. I guess in the next edition I can get it in. But I don't think it's going to

be published

again. But. But there

were issues that he found that were trying to give young people.

Positive alternative. Some probably have a story Y.M.C.A.. And why double work. Were you

aware of concern about criminal youth in the late frills.

The answer is no no.

OK. So much so that

we really a world are is not going

to actually challenge came in I don't

know what period that came out of some of the opiate

based organization called to challenge. Cavemen had one of

these I was. The store front.

A store front. To use other. So that when the fact

that Kyle built. But he were alive. Those were for the record.

You were

not part

of conversation. Isn't aware that.

We've got to have a youth. Event because when young people are out of

control their way not not feel like the world is good to know I go

I have a husband. Provision really not a book. Well I think you want a good other seven

years ago.

I did send a copy to give receive it. What was it it

was is said Can't remember but William Graham writes about Buffalo. And the post

war about never machines up yet you told me that it just

was probably just forgot about it but.

And it's interesting and I went to get a conference there and

said at the city Buffalo and said there needs to just get rough

today said about the racial issue. Well he said there was a riot in the late forty's.

There was a boat that went out on Lake Erie. And there were black

young people and white. And what they

had some kind of a big fight. And it's causing harm in the city

and that there is it is a great local study of the general phenomenon

in the late for him in the early fifty's. A concern about control he's

there Crystal Beach. But.

And I recall the up

but in my mind it wasn't that

major. That's helpful because that's his take was ever so many

youth organization or whatever it was that his interpretation. But that's not

my feeling my feeling is that

the Y.M.C.A. and the like only see a

word cosmetic.

In their in their application to use very cosmetic.

There were two different. When I go out to get a permit why I'm running more one.

You've never got the feeling that they didn't major impact on the so

that when you hear what you say those argue Saudis

who were anywhere between four hundred nine hundred.

Every Saturday night. That's an impact.

But they never

had some kind of an organization that think that

a Saturday night can climb hand. Somewhere that have in the thousands.

But there was a positive safe alternative to drinking and fighting

and. Well I have a he that. If you were a man and I was once use or going

just there isn't there is a secular one that

he didn't know all about kind

of hours that

we need to ask was. If you were aware. This if this was a dry. Forest and churches were

saying OK. To come that I was more aware of the problem that arose in

the sixties and seventies. As far as riots and street marches

and not sort of OK. But that's a different story.

OK.

With the stuff.

Mysterians trying to remember. Above. Anything more you bike to say about like it.

If I asked

my wealth of you to get three or four words to

describe what Buffalo or three or four just a few lines just to summarize

your impression about the when you got there. As just like what is my.

With the mood of the

city pursuing because every time you talked to

a different version we're going to. And I had the feeling that Buffalo was a very friendly city

as compared to where I was earlier which is the leg. And we've got

the opposite. When people go to where the good old can hurry

from Ivan then they're free. It is in my thinkin. Not a friendly city.

Recalled an aggressive.

But Buffalo is friendly. I thought

so anything I would just see part of that might

be subjective.

Because of the fact we look for been. Because of the type of.

Street was full of the businesses nor can you know about. We never got involved in the

city of Philadelphia we never got in wealth is an issue

will charge cover Gratian type of set up a minute I got to promise but

I was a family like set up is.

Friendly feeling people really develop their

family feeling the church.

So you see from his family feel there's a sense of the family.

And yet the very much. Your impression of

just. You know what is bad for me

that I hated that said he has a child of my parents took me there. And

I didn't like it.

So that's why I didn't want to stay in about four months and Francis was already well we

have Jack but I always kept

it on I went there why because of the travelling and attack. And

so that that's why I can't say so and or would say we're going

to and from Birthday Happy Birthday they took me with

that friend.

And I'm a second attempt some. Big city. That turned me

against and I couldn't imagine getting in the tyrant

writing those days there were go through ways.

So that nor do you get a bill to Buffalo.

From our she was you go through the conflict neighborhood.

Which was in depression. Stronger. So the. The

houses looked all over the dirty driver. She

came driving made of company that's our

company and the Larkin warehouse.

I didn't. I didn't try to is a nice Paxson about flop. She had

nobody does not offer real feeling that it's night there. And way myself.

And can walk and. When you go to fascism you don't go and have

to remember. But was a sure way system I know you have to

come through the better developed.

Junior Executive.

Part of which is far better. If someone were to ask

for me to ask you think

because. How would you describe the culture of Buffalo we use some terms

like blue collar.

I know one of the first hit me was just like Kill bossa comes to mind.

But I Polish food. What do you can you say anything about the culture the type of cuisine.

We mention who how we got. Is there any more description you know. Before

we move. I think the idea is that you must remember that you

were total the Polish

section was totally. Says blacks next year was

totally black. And the Spanish was there working

towards that

you got out into the outer suburbs.

And that's what everybody had says they had been a fast one.

Then they never go to these different

sometimes that lasts a lot. Yeah.

And on and ten are generous

night. So you're there in

the northeast. And when about where you are saying is that the

dissemination Polish culture. For example and the food

to become a buffalo. Type food.

Didn't happen until because the. They were get out of the ghetto a Polish like a name row about to

go who was the. I mean ghetto had been added a ethic to find

neighborhoods it was a

business department store. Most I thought the park would store was that

Nightline a roadway. In the heart of the Polish so the money of the

suburban people came to their. Or I could come

to Costco. The

lower Broadway. The Broadway.

Mark picked the Bing market

rose and I would come in to the entire

inner just abolish area. One of the Buffalo back at heart.

But to have published two immediately. It's out of the game is a very it was

a non-porous. The job they would run for. So you go and it was out of there was

a New York City is very much like that at this point so you go in and that they know when

he speaks English there is a

separate world on a train.

OK. Will be fun lack. Was that already

that was that who who may be some

black and hugs to you I think you have a letter or number being affected

too much. I don't mean that when next time it but only look. You know that it was asked and

we had moved to an emergency after

these other words with OK Going to the church they didn't say or we got it

wasn't like that we never went out for

a lever that you may start and he didn't. We were able to sort

of the way. Pizza.

Little pizza. Spaghetti the Las Vegas Well there was a very very

and a

popular spaghetti Buster place.

But essentially to ask you got there were separate from each

other absolutely. Wow.

OK that's that's interesting I did and said OK. Good for You mentioned how. When you got

to Buffalo to that one of the things that you had served was that the churches were

independent. And they were sort of islands. Can you describe that you

can you offer some theories for why. How do you think it got to be that way. I

don't know because many of those split off from other lines

and nomination. But for I've got there. And I think that they were

or basically fundamentalist religion. There was a strong.

General Association of regular Baptist.

There was a thorough core of the probably six or seven

of the general association wonder about this George

is by very credo their

isolationists think him there. When you where you are again. Left

town fun like the different means to her. But this is

just my

side. I have my ordination.

So I have a new nick spreader Motors names. OK.

It's like and made you. I had Alfred ham.

Jack. Burger.

And Clinton. But I get hungry. I have.

My organization and I

think if I were to ask you you know. First impression

like the top three or four. Protestant denominations.

Or groups. Well. In terms of congregations. What was come to

mind for the both of you I'd be curious. Pressure during

president here in the north saying we're Delaware largest churches work. OK.

They go well beyond the president over these are the wealthier churches are united Fred Syrian

Presbyterian press just press the chance

that they ran down the way I am

now with the split was not really affected too much except there were.

Several And then when I pressed

charges but they pressure because every Baptist.

But not less well

actually not necessarily A.B.C. that says. Well we're.

Strong churches. And one was a strong

with the church. Well tended to people went to Baptist churches and where in

the city where they locate where they suburban

country. Demurs diverse. From working

class careless

every law is a strong your church in the Jordan area.

The bustle Baptist Church was a stroke. Church. At that period of time.

And that was less so very near the edge of the Polish area. But the lose a job there was a

small world you are an area. OK.

Unless the Riverside back the stretch was very

strong. North Tonawanda Riverside that this

is where in the Riverside section which is a model in the grammar