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Alan T. Forbes oral history, 2010, side 4.
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- speakerReally that's him but I was a good youth leader. When I knew a claim are made up with more
- speakermoney in Prospect church. I instituted a church newspaper.
- speakerI had a church newspaper.
- speakerexpect that we would have I also would. It was that church. If
- speakerit's the newspaper just for that particular
- speakerchurch? That's right. because I have properties of the
- speakerthe that you cause it was quote prospect.
- speakerUse of thing by the prospect
- speakerof my . each each area, the
- speakerwoman society I gave a special prospecting name to that
- speakerIt was a unique piece of literature.
- speakerI learned to
- speakerI learned to apply my
- speakermy knowledge, my gifts
- speakerto the jobs that I had. What else did you know that he had a part
- speakerof a scholarship to Yale. Yeah, I did tell him. where that. Journalism.
- speakerYeah that's what I was studying
- speakerwith journalism even when I was in high school.
- speakerSo why
- speakerSo this is the first time that
- speakeryouth. Well, I guess a camp was youth really. I had
- speakerno desire to be a senior pastor. Why not? I wanted to be an evangelist.
- speakerAnd you evangelize your own people? Yeah. Absolutely!
- speakerAnd, that was why we found that the Youth Time evangelism
- speakerscholarship.
- speakerWhich is Time for Youth, evangelism and
- speakerfellowship. Jane is the one who gave me that name.
- speakerYouth Time Evangelism. You were leaving in the morning and you
- speakerwent downstairs and said I've got to have a name.
- speakerfor this place. You've got to have a name
- speakerfor it. And that I was giving Lisa a bath, maybe Vicki.
- speakerI remember having her in the bathtub
- speakerand saying, "How about Youth Time Evangelism and Fellowship? He was going out the door.
- speakerHe said, "That's It!."
- speakerShe gave "Youth Time," and I added "Evangelism."
- speakeris yeah but should then be proud to say. Well above.
- speakerAs I saw that above there was no low Integra connection between us and
- speakerthe bright but he didn't ask your
- speakerfriends. So. Youth
- speakerbecause that was the way to shape and their eyes are was one of the news
- speakerabout is of them all over my
- speakereducation through the summer can't personally. Perfectly proper It was a Usenet.
- speakerHe was. I didn't know that primarily
- speakerprimarily at the camp. But then he broke it chipped.
- speakerThere was basically was interested in the use of the
- speakercan
- speakerabsolutes. But people that were converted to our
- speakermeetings. Eighty percent of work. Were you there
- speakergot saved in our meetings because statistics through and
- speakerwhat seventy percent of the decisions that are made her cry
- speakersurvey before twenty one years of age.
- speakerAnd the other reasons why members and what if your reason for me doing so
- speakerwhen the amount of people.
- speakerAnd the other things if you think you find. Being a senior pastor confining
- speakeror depressing
- speakerthat
- speakerthe thought of it. When you made a choice to her that. I mean did you want to care
- speakerabout that at all.
- speakerNo sense of humor. And then anything which is us could get into I think
- speakerthe
- speakerkids and Percy was like that Prissy was just then and.
- speakerThe first time that they have program.
- speakerLet's really find you calling Pat they would get some laughing.
- speakerFirst he
- speakerdid and the time there was
- speakeran element. Prior to television.
- speakerPrior really almost.
- speakerWhat I just cry.
- speakerAs ever payment factor. Even Times
- speakerof London.
- speakerMovie deals already.
- speakerThere was an entertainment factor because this was something outside of
- speakerthe ordinary that they could go to that was like I entertainment when it was on.
- speakerActually it was there was really somebody.
- speakerThere was a. He was. Was dramatic. Repairs.
- speakerSo I don't know that I had an
- speakerelement of entertainment.
- speakerBut it was just the moons of contact.
- speakerAnd then we exchange. That time with deadly serious getting
- speakerpeople laugh then perfectly with the first line. Because
- speakerfurther with my Dad The Caller Yeah.
- speakerHe didn't train.
- speakerWell we are bring back on that and that
- speakerthey did the helpful because one of the things here is it is
- speakerthat there is an interesting confluence of the sacred. And
- speakerthe seriousness
- speakerof eternal issues of salvation. You think of
- speakerChristianity and other religions around going back centuries
- speakerof very the most of way things and then now we're having something that seems to be
- speakerat odds with that the culture of entertainment show this isn't fun humor. And
- speakerthere are overlapping here and how they overlap is going to point to point a curiosity. For example.
- speakerThe discussion of Percy Crawford sounds
- speakerlike earlier. Grampa share that
- speakerhe was
- speakera bit.
- speakerDictatorial or a strict. One another's arrived versus personnel as the other
- speakerwas
- speakerdictatorial. It was demanded a yard it was triggered
- speakerthe man was own. James. How could this man who has all
- speakerserious attributes integrity
- speakerDick's Tauriel learned all
- speakerthat get healthy also be funny and how did you guys
- speakerfind things to laugh about. Those are color.
- speakerHe was even creating the can be very funny.
- speakerOne instance he was the quick that was singing and it was that your guy here that
- speakeryou know I
- speakerhave brothers of my socks.
- speakerHe reached over while I'm singing pulled my leg up
- speakerand Lagardere. Well. So look what I backed up. The
- speakerGuy Gardner was up for behind me.
- speakerAnd all the guys began to laugh. Because he was very fine air.
- speakerOne know that other bit of the children only would never do
- speakerthat but they say that the
- speakerfirst twenty minutes the guy was saying I want everybody else. Saying I had
- speakerLet's Make a plan my grandmother die. To set down to settle down
- speakerand not land. During
- speakermy serious thought because it's
- speakergreat
- speakerthat you know. OK I'm going to I'm going to play a little bit interpretive and they're pushing on both of
- speakerthe
- speakerhere. One of the description. Again of the modern world in the post World War
- speakerOne World is this liberation from all of their constraints from from tradition. Is
- speakerthere any chance that part of what was happening here was our grandmother was so
- speakerthere Tori and she'd pull your ear if you were give you a whipping in church. Your father away.
- speakerIf you laugh and this was like.
- speakerListen we can laugh and be in church and jail time. I think you're right.
- speakerThat's like to camp. Making fun. Saturday night or C.N.N.
- speakerhe
- speakercould be true. Fun tourch could be fun. Worshipping God is
- speakerthat Saturday night. They put on a Sunday
- speakershow and wear a thousand and ten. Let's sit out in front of the
- speakerbig. Pay for the slack when there are
- speakerlights and it was not that they could be offended you know.
- speakerAnd then some kids would be down there and they would do funny
- speakertricks and him. Funny
- speakerthing for an hour. And the kids with this list Six Flags and they thought well
- speakerwe're for fun. And that's the first night they arrive. Since Sunday night.
- speakerThey were Sunday morning. They were struck with
- speakerthis very
- speakerserious Sunday morning when they were saying that it
- speakeroutta
- speakergo cold when.
- speakerSo the Sunday morning was
- speakerserious. Oh yes it is the music is
- speakeras well it gets so you are finding the culture you have artist. Was
- speakerabout aligning a way to. It's about
- speakerdetails. Again just for curiosity see from the historical perspective.
- speakerThere was a sense of your parents and grandparents and great parents were part of a more
- speakerserious and something. The term Victorian nineteenth century comes to
- speakermind but that you wanted to
- speakerembrace some of them aren't spirit but in a way that wasn't degrading to
- speakeryour face but I have to incorporate here that my father had such a sense that you know
- speakerwhere he was so funny that we could never be serious for a day
- speakeron my son that way but your generation here the service. All
- speakerof your I read I don't want to say that at home. It
- speakerwas serious and when we my parents would entertain so much it would all be funded my
- speakerdad couldn't think of anything
- speakerbut plenty of OK. Can I ask a question when someone is. Let me just sort of term.
- speakerAs we're describing this person crop of this world
- speakerhere. Heard a
- speakerterm like Victorian or nineteenth century or
- speakerprogressive or. What can you give more of a description of what. You. He was the older
- speakergeneration that preceded you. Not necessarily here specific father or mother.
- speakerBut what how did it here to you have grown up in the twenty's and thirty's
- speakerand Coming of Age in the forty's.
- speakerIt was quite a transformation then my legs to move
- speakerfrom. This is asleep. All
- speakerthose concerts form of worship.
- speakerTo be introduced to the message church. I mean
- speakerthe faith can be there or when the whole new we are
- speakeror aren't familiar area. To
- speakermake nothing like that as I told you when I went on that program it's to
- speakerhave been praying to God as if he was a neighbor or federally number. Tell
- speakerme was opening up a whole new world. And when we came to Buffalo.
- speakerFrom Philadelphia.
- speakerRegisters New York had really
- speakerknocked. No programming that we were
- speakervery familiar with and we brought
- speakerthat program and I we
- speakerhad what I think. Attracted people plus my radio broadcast.
- speakerWell placed a little.
- speakerOreo of worship understanding to the people of western New
- speakerYork. And then
- speakertime he feels to some extent
- speakerthat. I'm still trying to imagine an
- speakerolder type of Christianity Protestant. Nineteenth century America. And
- speakerwe started. That maybe at the turn of the
- speakercentury and. And how what. You know how a younger generation
- speakernew generations if we want to be different. They've got a clear. Psychological
- speakerprofile of how it's always been and then they define again.
- speakerThat what they're going to be. Sounds like at infusing this element of joy.
- speakerTime to evangelism and worship. Rises and innovation. I But.
- speakerLooking for a little more help for the other generations look
- speakerto take
- speakercomparison. You know I'll have and most
- speakerunusual of course the
- speakerword purgatory. We have a different paradigm. Since the
- speakerpresumes their cars come in.
- speakerYou understand what I mean when I say praise music. OK Well for
- speakerthe moment today not.
- speakerIs not anything but government today with the band that there is
- speakerthat much of a break between my generation. And this generation.
- speakerThe priests. Our generation was from less big story and kind of
- speakeran approach of Jersey. To this programming kind of
- speakerchurch rather just looking for a little more description from you on that all of that or
- speakerwhat
- speakerwhat preceded you. You know platform for our time we're trying or floor
- speakertime when he is that can do to time. And we did
- speakerthree fluid campaign. But you didn't like states and. I went to
- speakerthat broadcast to three same men who didn't
- speakersay he came out they sent. Shall We Dance.
- speakerThe music was so unique and was so relevant to the
- speakersecular
- speakermusic as the right record just like today
- speakerneed the kind of music that was being used in the church
- speakeris resolves against a secular time. In the word mother were the
- speakerchurch has become more secularized
- speakersecular community has affected the church more on the church affecting
- speakerthose sectors but that is a blast. They've lost a real praise to God.
- speakerNow it's just a bunch of a setting where about us.
- speakerWell see I'm trying to again I'm trying
- speakerto I'm part of a generation and I know what I perceive me but I think
- speakerthat the midst of people trying to understand about location. SATTAR and Percy Crawford are your partner.
- speakerI'm still I got the four forty three four. But can you describe.
- speakerAnd I appreciate you talking about
- speakerthe Catholic formalism of Episcopalian tradition. Can you help me understand I
- speakercan with Percy proper care and the whole gang. All sitting up in here. And I could interview hundred times as well.
- speakerWhat was what preceded you. Because of course a younger generations like mine.
- speakerAnd music do you have it all as all fashions. So we're trying to can you tell you some
- speakergood the song per lose I don't remember saying. I do understand I'm trying to get a more
- speakerfocused sure of what. Besides three
- speakerfour engine and certainly was too simplistic. Simplistic and leads
- speakerto can I find is something you magic only within a church setting and women that
- speakerstick to me that I would say to Syria and of a sudden they
- speakercan see the choruses. In three four times. They too
- speakerare happy.
- speakerNow where there is a little amount that you
- speakerknow that helps Thursday is a very crux of all of it helps to explain this by
- speakersaying
- speakeris that is what is directed in worship
- speakerGod. Whereas the Gospel choruses and gospel
- speakermusic that came in after the twentieth century
- speakerbegan late. And then in the nineteenth. But really in
- speakerthe twentieth century that music was testimonial Right exactly that
- speakeris began with Billy Graham and it began with the the Sunday.
- speakerWhile movie. Testimony of the meaning was an evolutionary I just
- speakerreally well are. What our relationship to God is what God's relationship
- speakerthe mainland. That's the big cruise God that's
- speakerreally
- speakerwhat.
- speakerSo that's helpful. That's really helpful and sounds like a lot of it does come
- speakerfor you to some I'm through. Is it that you saw these. Through the use of
- speakeranother type of music that reflected a certain type of relationship to God When each other and then.
- speakerThis was a new form of music that expect a different relationship to mean we've got
- speakeranother we have a and spiritualism. To go.
- speakerAs we had an experience. To dogma of the music
- speakerwas Douglas. Prior to this knowledge experience.
- speakerYou mention a term fun. Can you elaborate on a logic Leo.
- speakerLooking back what this fund. Me. Why why.
- speakerHere that my life there but no better word is experience.
- speakerOK. Because the because Rice is not because life is one experiences outside a church is not
- speakerjust serious and it's also fun it's things that happen. They don't necessarily have to
- speakerbe dark in corrupted by men knocking on the door.
- speakerComing home from bar thing here. But part of Lady spirits is funny couldn't fuse
- speakerthat back in order to went to a greater extent.
- speakerThe experience of people prior to the twentieth century was
- speakercoming part might go like
- speakerthis for our core things in the news and weather was
- speakersuddenly was something else. The rest of the week was here. And I
- speakerexperience of those I'm of the twentieth century. I was brought a recognition
- speakerthat Christianity is a slave by day personal experience.
- speakerBased upon glow.
- speakerAnd it's what you may say so you wanted
- speakerto bear with me here. I'm just trying to clarify
- speakeryou that your music and protest and worship. That was later in the three
- speakerthe four for the three for shift the dogma to the spirit that you wanted
- speakerto
- speakermake safe less compartmentalize and more real. And so that the. The
- speakerway you live life. Monday
- speakerthrough Saturday and when there is humor there's other things that have. Life doesn't have to be completely
- speakerset aside and and. And then there's worship which is a completely
- speakerright to same thing you pray in tongues to God every day just like you did
- speakerand send your art. Edouard WHERE OR and therefore if the church
- speakercarries over the week then we can carry over to
- speakerchurch then we began to join the began to have
- speakerdevotional print the day with in
- speakerprint for people. Yes that was a
- speakerbig step but still going to be difficult for people to and they're curious about is how
- speakerdid a lot of the motifs of entertaining and fun and laughter. Find its
- speakerway into church I tell you are right for you guys.
- speakerWe were all gods are communication age. We moved from the industrial age.
- speakerWe were already to the communication.
- speakerOK. But what I'm getting at here is a little bit is there is a common interpretation. But
- speakerthat incorporating radio and and
- speakerentertainment what other forms of modern media and technology into worship.
- speakerWhere only a technique. And then there's another news. Or that is more technique as a way
- speakerof saving souls. Then there is a some question as to what extent. Was
- speakerit to a reflection
- speakerof changing views of God into the human. What it means to be a Christian.
- speakerAnd it sounds to me like it was for you with the Buffalo Christian Center and your spirit is in
- speakerthe sort of thing Firstly Crawford. Was it had a substance to it that went deeper than
- speakerthat it was part of the desire to he compartmentalize the Christian
- speakerfaith into bringing fun into worship in a church. You were also bringing
- speakeryour open have to bring church. Into the rest of the world.
- speakerEvery day experience.
- speakerIt just experiencing God every day instead of just on Sunday.
- speakerI think our use of the
- speakerword. Rose is probably over emphasized in
- speakerthis Berger view. Where the word experience we're. Better.
- speakerThe start or words to
- speakeryou because I felt that was the
- speakerpivot. When you start to think that if one has claimed requests like it was this.
- speakerTed
- speakerleast serious with great Simmonds we heard. But then there's Saturday night which
- speakerwas so rare yes. Out laughing it tilts of the same people who
- speakerare on the platform. During the week. They were making fun
- speakerand children the
- speakerkids with get there Saturday. And they would go over this flange time.
- speakerAnd relax is see
- speakerthe same people if they had they would see em the plaster you
- speakerwanted to put it another way. If you wanted to change.
- speakerThe is proud was Protestant Christian church. Some of it more fully
- speakerreflected the the. The broader range of human. About.
- speakerThat's Rob Liefeld miles per hour. Having to jump ahead
- speakerto having a Saturday night round I was saying it's OK to be a human being
- speakerbecause God made us as human beings and human beings are either always the
- speakerwho and we don't have to pretend that we don't do those things. And that was the way he was a very
- speakergood by knowing the rockets challenging them to be segregated.
- speakerBut that started the week which was very smart.
- speakerBut it didn't start with the deadly serious than the Morning. They staggered Saturday night
- speakerwith mine and
- speakerthat the other were probably broken come to
- speakerLondon. The suburb in that was the culmination of that week mark in the beginning that
- speakerwe were then the you know it when the car later. We're coming. I don't.
- speakerThe people
- speakerare Berbers
- speakeraround and we've got to
- speakerabout whatever.
- speakerOK.
- speakerIt's June seventeenth. There's a again I hope the Celtics a win tonight.
- speakerAnd we're going to. Cup.
- speakerAnd just a minute here. Down and buckle return. Florida.
- speakerAnd talking
- speakerabout the days of the buffalo Christian Center between nine hundred forty
- speakerseven for the early phase in the four does move to Buffalo and the like nine
- speakerhundred forty seven.
- speakerI'm doing OK We're back at it. Here we are. And they do a
- speakerpick up
- speakerGraham. I was just saying that. In preparation for going
- speakerto Buffalo and being were church work in general.
- speakerHaving visited so many churches, day after day, with Crawford, gave me a view
- speakervarious denominations were. What their idiosyncracies, if you will,
- speakerMight be so I was open to understand the trick
- speakerseen a lot better than a subsidy.
- speakerListeria kids had something to do in Buffalo with the
- speakerlist you have got started. Interdenominational an area where I am.
- speakerListening to work with the pastors knowing what their mindset
- speakerwas OK. And the reason you got this experience working with Prissy Crawford.
- speakerWas because of the because you would be mostly busy in the churches or all of it
- speakerbecause he was working. He would go now ready for this to nomination meeting or never in this congregation.
- speakerIt's probably point a real curiosity I know it has been in my research.
- speakerWhat we're here experience. Your experience of the secrecies of
- speakerthe
- speakerdifferent denomination world or. You're going to abuse up except for and
- speakerso see the need for
- speakerrecommitment which were in the Wesley
- speakerhim.
- speakerThe dilemma nations such as the Free Methodist the West the members
- speakerthat mere legged Methodist. All of that I'm. The assurance of
- speakersalvation is also when you enter those churches. You had larger
- speakerresponses than when you went to some that were Calvinistic for insulin and.
- speakerI've not noticed in the in the air around the nation a lot of.
- speakerSegment as well as in The Independent
- speakerBaptist group. They were very defensive
- speakerabout their independence and.
- speakerHow might that manifest itself it would manifest themselves and they would
- speakernot invest in the in normal ways they would invest
- speakerin our reloader missions. Budgets for instance.
- speakerThey were as I said before. They were suspicious
- speakerof national and world or national groups such as World Vision's new surprised.
- speakerAnd they were very selective in their mission tell Rich in fact.
- speakerBut they were quite substantial when
- speakerthe supply of independent missions.
- speakerSo when he said he didn't invest normally You mean
- speakerlike give me
- speakerthose nominations you know do not reach out to interdenominational missions
- speakerlike like.
- speakerOK. Tell me the Mysterians. At this point in the
- speaker1940's how they function. Well. And why I am not a rich man I really
- speakerI said do you
- speakerlive in western New York. The.
- speakerThe Mainline the nominations had their minister and. But they were very
- speakerintegral. And there are many of those men felt like they won the hot summer ship
- speakerwith a larger group of people. So we became the means
- speakerwhereby we would have ministers
- speakermeetings and invite and outstanding speaker to come and see
- speakerthe ministers themselves. We often in. Are
- speakerrough men like Stephen Ofer. Probably the best. X. files
- speakerunder of our generation. He would come and
- speakerhe really speak to the ministers
- speakerand feed them spiritually.
- speakerOK. So when. So with Percy Crawford you worked
- speakerwith Mysterians. And then I'll post
- speakeralthough I just became a kid with different kinds of ministers. But
- speakerhe would go away. Maybe nothing. We would be if we would
- speakerbe undertaken at the last year's
- speakerhouse prior to the meeting we would go there and have supper. And I would talk
- speakerwith the minister ordered sit and listen while Crawford would talk because you have
- speakera sense you can get a feeling of Churchill work. So
- speakerthat when you're saying to them he got to Buffalo he had the idea of sounding and then hysteria.
- speakerYou know how do the necessity.
- speakerI guess that brings us to a question that is sort of out there that we haven't addressed yet.
- speakerWhen you were with Percy Crawford. Did you go and
- speakervisit churches who were identified as fundamental. And even Jellicoe or.
- speakerOr did you get invited to mainline the barrel or just May ninth it was
- speakera broad segment.
- speakerRun the main thing about Crawford was the fact that he was a
- speakerradio personality. And those people knew that those
- speakerministers knew that their people were listening. They wanted to meet.
- speakerCrawford in
- speakerperson. Did the problem
- speakerof conservative orthodoxy. Versus liberal.
- speakerNarn ist manifest itself during
- speakerPercy was well aware that in that he got caught in the
- speakermake shouldn.
- speakerDebates when he was in seminary himself. He was a Christian.
- speakerYes. And he was aware that he. Trying to think who they yell a follow
- speakerup is a huge period. Well about another
- speakergreat person proper It was well aware of the debate.
- speakerBut you. How did how did Percy Crawford. Managed not to getting tangled
- speakerit simply was a gospel preaching that's all he would gotten
- speakerto but it didn't. It wasn't front center enough during the forty's that.
- speakerKnow that he was saying oh you can't come here one of the bible bashing.
- speakerEvangelicals mainline. We we believe in a broader gospel have that kind of never came
- speakerup because he was such an outstanding spokesman.
- speakerComfort was unique in that his messages were
- speakersharp this message just would never Malema half hour and forty
- speakerminutes that allowed him to learn to be a twenty
- speakerminute
- speakersegment with an hour ago an hour and a half service the average length of service ruined by
- speakerGovernor
- speakerhalf. So that. Live a Tasia and took about fifteen minutes
- speakertwenty minutes. Our musical section took about twenty minutes to half.
- speakerTo have our then he took that out
- speakerso you can. Can you tell me.
- speakerSo we between with nine hundred forty seven and nine hundred forty nine. You had a tenure as
- speakera
- speakeruse leader at Prospect.
- speakerPerhaps that gnostic down to Baptist Church and a flip. Can you tell me about how
- speakermany numbers that were in the church was it that sounds like that I'd even delegate
- speakeror fund in the West or
- speakerit was a conservative Baptist Church. The Conservative Baptist of arbitration.
- speakerThat was the a belief that was up and causes nomination the conservative that that's
- speakerright that's right I'm Dr doctor. Oh.
- speakerOh well as a an officer in the Conservative Baptist.
- speakerMissions. Society. So that he was. It was a strong
- speakerconservative Baptist.
- speakerReally a problem of
- speakerthe. Now. Grampa this is your first time.
- speakerComing to Buffalo and it. What did you see when
- speakeryou looked at the
- speakersocial religious landscape of Buffalo did you see a Catholic city did you see
- speakera steel
- speakercity. What. What did Buffalo. What was it like
- speakerand what is you strategized youth outreach. What did you view as
- speakeryour opportunity or
- speakerobstacles. Number. During that two year period. I was on a single charge.
- speakerAnd I was not enter into it or going nomination will work I
- speakerwill however the Baptists. In western New York.
- speakerIs a loose. Group that met.
- speakerQuarterly call the part of the goal
- speakerof Baptist. Young People's Association. And I was called upon.
- speakerI was called upon to be the song leader and platform man.
- speakerBecause I was really probably the
- speakeronly one that was here only injured in a minute or that was an even examination all of that was going
- speakeron congregational right on his two years that's right.
- speakerWhat can you can you help. Recreate for us.
- speakerWhat Buffalo the city. Before OK what will slow march with the church. I heard it.
- speakerBut also the city was like Is still be a
- speakerhard thing the rematch and because they go to the point out of population.
- speakerThat's what was the
- speakerBible into an ethnic areas.
- speakerSpanish that were it Tahlia Irish Catholic.
- speakerAnd some bourbon.
- speakerProtestant British. It wasn't
- speakerlike a or doctor. These days it's Act They use the term angry. You know.
- speakerYeah. That's that's what I had not actually I pursued. But
- speakerfrom my standpoint. I recognized that there was
- speakera sense of isolationism.
- speakerIn among the churches that you can depend in the back as
- speakerGeorge's isolation. Desire.
- speakerHere we are a single congregation. We want to be left alone to do our world eventually no was in
- speakerthe corporate desire to reach the community. And that's what
- speakerI immediately sensed was mooted there. OK.
- speakerSo if we can paint to take that apart a little bit. Where is
- speakerthe be remember help. When you say Spanish do you mean Puerto Rican he
- speakermeans Hispanic or
- speakerbasically Puerto Rican Cuban OK. But not
- speakerHaitian Haitian there's mark down here in Florida. We had no vacation. OK.
- speakerBut
- speakerso was it mostly in the
- speakerurban core. In the mid late forty's. That was
- speakerIrish Catholic in the different ethnicities tell you
- speakerin polish the new the decentralization
- speakerof the population. Have already begun.
- speakerSo that prospect church. Have the seeds of its
- speakerdemise already at that time which was a downtown church and was surrounded
- speakerby them. By the Spanish community. It was a black.
- speakerOK.
- speakerWhat can what. Church and they've seen is a thousand. Yet. It was
- speakera topic. Having that instead.
- speakerAre there.
- speakerOK now. Buffalo is known as a working
- speakerclass city. And also has a Catholic said. Do you want to time up with non-citizen.
- speakerI mean.
- speakerWas how Catholic. Was Buffalo and totally dominant. You thought that it
- speakerwas the dominant faith. There's rather not a cathedral
- speakerSaturday grow there. Knew how to close in go there and they also
- speakerthe bishop had a head of an outstanding residence on the main level
- speakerwhere Avenue mainline St Louis
- speakerwere always consulted for political questions are
- speakermoral questions.
- speakerOK. Presence. What was bustling
- speakerprimary industry or industries that kept people
- speakerworking for more company. And what if Ford Motor Company happened but they
- speakerhad an assembly
- speakerline. Now. And they made more
- speakerresults and shover may also be a presence.
- speakerTo do that to the largest come like a complete assembly or just
- speakerpartial like at and Jim there. No I think it was a production. Place.
- speakerSo cars rolling
- speakeroff about them on the slope times. I misspoke.
- speakerI think a lot for having Harrison or a Raider OK so.
- speakerSo they facts are related sure. And there was a huge
- speakerChevrolet. Plant in the heart of
- speakerBuffalo called on Delavan Lebanon but I've you know I was not
- speakerin what they actually met in fact
- speakerless than
- speakerwhen he was in Western Electric Company. Bubba's another big company.
- speakerWestern
- speakerElectric. And it was a rough table service a lot I was a diverse. Base.
- speakerOK. Yes it's a good one to steal that debt and the studio that for
- speakerexample
- speakerstill preserve the shale. I see it when I get on the train the mainline.
- speakerIn Philadelphia where that now we're waiting for the train Lackawanna still works.
- speakerThat's right. Is our rails. Back. So that's the deal and others am
- speakerstill production. Huge companies. Another without prior little
- speakerprior to my going there in New York. Is it was a mill
- speakerthe. Place where flour mills
- speakerwere fairly diverse. Yet Pitchford
- speakerwas coal and coke was just a Coke is a.
- speakerAnd then still production.
- speakerAnd that's about it and it turned out a whole deal. But so that Alfie will have gone through the
- speakerhistory of Philadelphia. For course with really diverse. There's no
- speakersingle person that's one of the theories is that
- speakerwhat
- speakerkept him from the dramatic ups and downs. It's perpetrators is a
- speakerdifferent feeling. That's a different
- speakerfeeling from. The Asian electronics which are in not.
- speakerThe populations. Remote mostly blue
- speakercollar middle class lower middle class people working
- speakerin most fields not a succulent should a bus load with mostly. Again.
- speakerWas working class Absolutely. OK. And then lower
- speakermiddle class. Moving into homes. Actual In that time period. Well built
- speakeraircraft which may have a top hers
- speakeror was a huge thing out there are faults
- speakerand when you think a buffalo you have to really mentally clue or present to
- speakerit becomes.
- speakerWere there other sister paint this picture a post-war Buffalo. A little more.
- speakerWhen you moved there. The book. Both of you moved there.
- speakerWhat else. When we would open a newspaper.
- speakerJune seventeenth. Nineteen forty eight. What
- speakerother celebrity local celebrities might have captured. Like local.
- speakerOne of what else is out there in the public. What was their society section
- speakerthat was very trendy was all right not to meet
- speakerhim and they were real girls on the heart. It was an art college. There. And I
- speakerlove whole area and there was a whole area right near the city was very
- speakerbohemian like you would compare it to to whom York
- speakerCity's graduate. So that's what Allen Town of
- speakerthe time to let you in the scale
- speakerbarrier of and we have a festival every year. Now on top
- speakerand was Alan Wood was that a wealthy. Well where was what was this
- speakernational every duster city has fashionable section down the way and
- speakerover mansions in.
- speakerWhere did people vacation. Like did they go to Terry did they go to Alec at villain.
- speakerOn the southern tier. Did they go to.
- speakerWe were there were too much or most up
- speakerwas in bed and the tent now left can't think yet right to
- speakerask him any make people just you see there was a
- speakerlarge amusement park
- speakeracross the border. In the in the I'm very old.
- speakerForget the name of it while but. Everybody was there was like
- speakeronly autocrats don't be great at all besides I heard. Crystal
- speakerBeach they
- speakercall. How do you want to talk about the winters.
- speakerWas it did it was the weather. Where they pretty rough and then it would was.
- speakerYou want to mention that. There's a single answer. No.
- speakerNo the. The media
- speakerand people's perceptions are way are arriving
- speakerconsidering the buffalo. Winters. Because most of the.
- speakerLinders occurred.
- speakerSouth of the city where there was a small range of hills.
- speakerAnd the stores would come off. Lake Erie and.
- speakerOh it's almost regular They would a lot
- speakerof this and south of pounds like Easter I sound
- speakerexactly thirty Mansour psychedelic of No that's where
- speakerthe sketch where I exactly. Which is
- speakerprobably great you don't give them a break in the summertime and I can
- speakerimagine all my heart that was just sounds I may have a sense or reason
- speakerI guess he read writing back from my poor probably ten years ago. In January.
- speakerAnd it was the southern Jellicoe I almost
- speakerdied in the car trip was my first year grad school but it was
- speakera horrible truth there is a hell of a
- speakertruck and bus loads up actually wasn't it was a light snow and. That was just like what am
- speakerI doing. And one point I was there was driving along. In the
- speakercar
- speakerhit. Their section adventure of not far from elegant and the
- speakercar hit a patch. It was a snow was so big you know less driving through
- speakerahead in the car did a complete three hundred sixty degree OK his stuff. Started back up and it's kept
- speakergoing but I remember getting home. There was a case to say cars are they going to
- speakerthe knuckles right
- speakerand I
- speakercan actually see you in the most on the most part.
- speakerThe equipment was
- speakerso complete. By the road Sarkies that western New
- speakerYork area. When that attack the situation that you never had
- speakerwe can't remember more than a couple of times when we were slow to get your
- speakerto where
- speakernow. There is
- speakera. What were the most prominent sports
- speakercelebrities in local Buffalo that you
- speakerremember. There were any.
- speakerYes. O.J..
- speakerWe have. Slater that's the sixty one where we had
- speakera baseball team and hockey team. Even before we had a football.
- speakerOff from a new stadium in central Buffalo.
- speakerWas
- speakerof a major minor a major minor league. AAA team.
- speakerFor years. Buffalo.
- speakerAnd we still do have calculated that we haven't had a hockey team that was in the
- speakernational hockey and people being as close to Canada as they were
- speakeror likely a hockey camp. Were there
- speakerother entertaining. Figures that were local
- speakerBuffalo. Come to mind that were popular were there. Was there were there theatres I you know I
- speakerdon't know where we had a huge. We had a huge boat that
- speakerwas steady hitter which was only a hundred yards from the center.
- speakerIt was still active in one of their area. Wow. Very odd
- speakerthat seats four thousand
- speakerpeople that show a swap I thought that by itself Peters died out by
- speakerthe twenties.
- speakerWell. Not all of that and the also had a stage. Place.
- speakerMary I get nightclub and. That was on
- speakerMain Street. The heart it was a theater district. Probably out of arrest
- speakerand where. So that it. People came to the seven
- speakercounty worry is that they want another Taman to Cape
- speakerbuffalo. In the seven counties just include western New York.
- speakerNot from Teria. That's all it would be any seventy miles. Not even
- speakerthat a fifty mile circle or a southern CA This
- speakerAny chance you might mention with the seven counties. Do they come to mind you I agree
- speakeror Allegheny
- speakerErie.
- speakerGenesee. And going well. My
- speakerrope on terror. Sick.
- speakerDid Well done
- speakergood.
- speakerThere is a influential book out a ruckus.
- speakerOK.
- speakerThere is an influenza book about Buffalo. By William Gray
- speakerpure about
- speakeryou and his thesis has a lot of research to support this is
- speakerthat in the late forty's in through the early fifty's. There was
- speakera panic about juvenile delinquency.
- speakerAnd that. When you study Buckley get a good insight into Americans general concern about
- speakerjuvenile delinquency crime. Latchkey kids. And
- speakerthat there were multiple organizations and virtually the buffalo Christian Center
- speakercame late enough by the mid fifty's. It just doesn't get mentioned and I even contacted
- speakerhim and say. I guess in the next edition I can get it in. But I don't think it's going to
- speakerbe published
- speakeragain. But. But there
- speakerwere issues that he found that were trying to give young people.
- speakerPositive alternative. Some probably have a story Y.M.C.A.. And why double work. Were you
- speakeraware of concern about criminal youth in the late frills.
- speakerThe answer is no no.
- speakerOK. So much so that
- speakerwe really a world are is not going
- speakerto actually challenge came in I don't
- speakerknow what period that came out of some of the opiate
- speakerbased organization called to challenge. Cavemen had one of
- speakerthese I was. The store front.
- speakerA store front. To use other. So that when the fact
- speakerthat Kyle built. But he were alive. Those were for the record.
- speakerYou were
- speakernot part
- speakerof conversation. Isn't aware that.
- speakerWe've got to have a youth. Event because when young people are out of
- speakercontrol their way not not feel like the world is good to know I go
- speakerI have a husband. Provision really not a book. Well I think you want a good other seven
- speakeryears ago.
- speakerI did send a copy to give receive it. What was it it
- speakerwas is said Can't remember but William Graham writes about Buffalo. And the post
- speakerwar about never machines up yet you told me that it just
- speakerwas probably just forgot about it but.
- speakerAnd it's interesting and I went to get a conference there and
- speakersaid at the city Buffalo and said there needs to just get rough
- speakertoday said about the racial issue. Well he said there was a riot in the late forty's.
- speakerThere was a boat that went out on Lake Erie. And there were black
- speakeryoung people and white. And what they
- speakerhad some kind of a big fight. And it's causing harm in the city
- speakerand that there is it is a great local study of the general phenomenon
- speakerin the late for him in the early fifty's. A concern about control he's
- speakerthere Crystal Beach. But.
- speakerAnd I recall the up
- speakerbut in my mind it wasn't that
- speakermajor. That's helpful because that's his take was ever so many
- speakeryouth organization or whatever it was that his interpretation. But that's not
- speakermy feeling my feeling is that
- speakerthe Y.M.C.A. and the like only see a
- speakerword cosmetic.
- speakerIn their in their application to use very cosmetic.
- speakerThere were two different. When I go out to get a permit why I'm running more one.
- speakerYou've never got the feeling that they didn't major impact on the so
- speakerthat when you hear what you say those argue Saudis
- speakerwho were anywhere between four hundred nine hundred.
- speakerEvery Saturday night. That's an impact.
- speakerBut they never
- speakerhad some kind of an organization that think that
- speakera Saturday night can climb hand. Somewhere that have in the thousands.
- speakerBut there was a positive safe alternative to drinking and fighting
- speakerand. Well I have a he that. If you were a man and I was once use or going
- speakerjust there isn't there is a secular one that
- speakerhe didn't know all about kind
- speakerof hours that
- speakerwe need to ask was. If you were aware. This if this was a dry. Forest and churches were
- speakersaying OK. To come that I was more aware of the problem that arose in
- speakerthe sixties and seventies. As far as riots and street marches
- speakerand not sort of OK. But that's a different story.
- speakerOK.
- speakerWith the stuff.
- speakerMysterians trying to remember. Above. Anything more you bike to say about like it.
- speakerIf I asked
- speakermy wealth of you to get three or four words to
- speakerdescribe what Buffalo or three or four just a few lines just to summarize
- speakeryour impression about the when you got there. As just like what is my.
- speakerWith the mood of the
- speakercity pursuing because every time you talked to
- speakera different version we're going to. And I had the feeling that Buffalo was a very friendly city
- speakeras compared to where I was earlier which is the leg. And we've got
- speakerthe opposite. When people go to where the good old can hurry
- speakerfrom Ivan then they're free. It is in my thinkin. Not a friendly city.
- speakerRecalled an aggressive.
- speakerBut Buffalo is friendly. I thought
- speakerso anything I would just see part of that might
- speakerbe subjective.
- speakerBecause of the fact we look for been. Because of the type of.
- speakerStreet was full of the businesses nor can you know about. We never got involved in the
- speakercity of Philadelphia we never got in wealth is an issue
- speakerwill charge cover Gratian type of set up a minute I got to promise but
- speakerI was a family like set up is.
- speakerFriendly feeling people really develop their
- speakerfamily feeling the church.
- speakerSo you see from his family feel there's a sense of the family.
- speakerAnd yet the very much. Your impression of
- speakerjust. You know what is bad for me
- speakerthat I hated that said he has a child of my parents took me there. And
- speakerI didn't like it.
- speakerSo that's why I didn't want to stay in about four months and Francis was already well we
- speakerhave Jack but I always kept
- speakerit on I went there why because of the travelling and attack. And
- speakerso that that's why I can't say so and or would say we're going
- speakerto and from Birthday Happy Birthday they took me with
- speakerthat friend.
- speakerAnd I'm a second attempt some. Big city. That turned me
- speakeragainst and I couldn't imagine getting in the tyrant
- speakerwriting those days there were go through ways.
- speakerSo that nor do you get a bill to Buffalo.
- speakerFrom our she was you go through the conflict neighborhood.
- speakerWhich was in depression. Stronger. So the. The
- speakerhouses looked all over the dirty driver. She
- speakercame driving made of company that's our
- speakercompany and the Larkin warehouse.
- speakerI didn't. I didn't try to is a nice Paxson about flop. She had
- speakernobody does not offer real feeling that it's night there. And way myself.
- speakerAnd can walk and. When you go to fascism you don't go and have
- speakerto remember. But was a sure way system I know you have to
- speakercome through the better developed.
- speakerJunior Executive.
- speakerPart of which is far better. If someone were to ask
- speakerfor me to ask you think
- speakerbecause. How would you describe the culture of Buffalo we use some terms
- speakerlike blue collar.
- speakerI know one of the first hit me was just like Kill bossa comes to mind.
- speakerBut I Polish food. What do you can you say anything about the culture the type of cuisine.
- speakerWe mention who how we got. Is there any more description you know. Before
- speakerwe move. I think the idea is that you must remember that you
- speakerwere total the Polish
- speakersection was totally. Says blacks next year was
- speakertotally black. And the Spanish was there working
- speakertowards that
- speakeryou got out into the outer suburbs.
- speakerAnd that's what everybody had says they had been a fast one.
- speakerThen they never go to these different
- speakersometimes that lasts a lot. Yeah.
- speakerAnd on and ten are generous
- speakernight. So you're there in
- speakerthe northeast. And when about where you are saying is that the
- speakerdissemination Polish culture. For example and the food
- speakerto become a buffalo. Type food.
- speakerDidn't happen until because the. They were get out of the ghetto a Polish like a name row about to
- speakergo who was the. I mean ghetto had been added a ethic to find
- speakerneighborhoods it was a
- speakerbusiness department store. Most I thought the park would store was that
- speakerNightline a roadway. In the heart of the Polish so the money of the
- speakersuburban people came to their. Or I could come
- speakerto Costco. The
- speakerlower Broadway. The Broadway.
- speakerMark picked the Bing market
- speakerrose and I would come in to the entire
- speakerinner just abolish area. One of the Buffalo back at heart.
- speakerBut to have published two immediately. It's out of the game is a very it was
- speakera non-porous. The job they would run for. So you go and it was out of there was
- speakera New York City is very much like that at this point so you go in and that they know when
- speakerhe speaks English there is a
- speakerseparate world on a train.
- speakerOK. Will be fun lack. Was that already
- speakerthat was that who who may be some
- speakerblack and hugs to you I think you have a letter or number being affected
- speakertoo much. I don't mean that when next time it but only look. You know that it was asked and
- speakerwe had moved to an emergency after
- speakerthese other words with OK Going to the church they didn't say or we got it
- speakerwasn't like that we never went out for
- speakera lever that you may start and he didn't. We were able to sort
- speakerof the way. Pizza.
- speakerLittle pizza. Spaghetti the Las Vegas Well there was a very very
- speakerand a
- speakerpopular spaghetti Buster place.
- speakerBut essentially to ask you got there were separate from each
- speakerother absolutely. Wow.
- speakerOK that's that's interesting I did and said OK. Good for You mentioned how. When you got
- speakerto Buffalo to that one of the things that you had served was that the churches were
- speakerindependent. And they were sort of islands. Can you describe that you
- speakercan you offer some theories for why. How do you think it got to be that way. I
- speakerdon't know because many of those split off from other lines
- speakerand nomination. But for I've got there. And I think that they were
- speakeror basically fundamentalist religion. There was a strong.
- speakerGeneral Association of regular Baptist.
- speakerThere was a thorough core of the probably six or seven
- speakerof the general association wonder about this George
- speakeris by very credo their
- speakerisolationists think him there. When you where you are again. Left
- speakertown fun like the different means to her. But this is
- speakerjust my
- speakerside. I have my ordination.
- speakerSo I have a new nick spreader Motors names. OK.
- speakerIt's like and made you. I had Alfred ham.
- speakerJack. Burger.
- speakerAnd Clinton. But I get hungry. I have.
- speakerMy organization and I
- speakerthink if I were to ask you you know. First impression
- speakerlike the top three or four. Protestant denominations.
- speakerOr groups. Well. In terms of congregations. What was come to
- speakermind for the both of you I'd be curious. Pressure during
- speakerpresident here in the north saying we're Delaware largest churches work. OK.
- speakerThey go well beyond the president over these are the wealthier churches are united Fred Syrian
- speakerPresbyterian press just press the chance
- speakerthat they ran down the way I am
- speakernow with the split was not really affected too much except there were.
- speakerSeveral And then when I pressed
- speakercharges but they pressure because every Baptist.
- speakerBut not less well
- speakeractually not necessarily A.B.C. that says. Well we're.
- speakerStrong churches. And one was a strong
- speakerwith the church. Well tended to people went to Baptist churches and where in
- speakerthe city where they locate where they suburban
- speakercountry. Demurs diverse. From working
- speakerclass careless
- speakerevery law is a strong your church in the Jordan area.
- speakerThe bustle Baptist Church was a stroke. Church. At that period of time.
- speakerAnd that was less so very near the edge of the Polish area. But the lose a job there was a
- speakersmall world you are an area. OK.
- speakerUnless the Riverside back the stretch was very
- speakerstrong. North Tonawanda Riverside that this
- speakeris where in the Riverside section which is a model in the grammar
- speakersyntax of the river on the north there who runs the northeast. Rough West.
- speakerFar North
- speakerWest. OK. So Penry have just
- speakerthe strictest participated in that Fundamental Baptist young people's association that.
- speakerWill probably have about. We have about twelve to fifteen churches and in that
- speakernew
- speakersurrounding. And then there are a lot of small Baptist churches that were
- speakerseveral free. Methodist
- speakerchurches. But the west winds were not strong on that
- speakerbut time in and who was real in this is a rather amazing who sang to me.
- speakerAnd I think that the secret to
- speakerit the college. One One One thing was
- speakeropen and the other was the emergence of the football among
- speakerthe in which the football players came into stablished a Wesley had
- speakerless than the
- speakerchurch. Will the ballpark of our park and have become a
- speakerdominant church that
- speakerhas problem with ten lists of upwards from twenty five hundred to four
- speakerthousand people that came out of a lower.
- speakerAfter my entire. OK. Presbyterian. Wealthier.
- speakerBaptist broad spectrum from huge big churches to small very but.
- speakerAnd then Free Methodist.
- speakerIndependent. So the to chapel in Buffalo.
- speakerThe chapel.
- speakerIs of huge church. The
- speakerchapel they started started an independent church and not smart
- speakerenough anation in the interview and no luck
- speakeron that nomination
- speakernon-denominational. OK. And then of course. Sounds a
- speakercase of my work would be considered
- speakernon-denominational OK didn't want to talk anymore at
- speakerall about the culture of independence in that what. When you.
- speakerYou
- speakermention. That back this mindset are just that we
- speakerdon't want to
- speakerbe associated with
- speakerinternational agencies and we're kinda talking more
- speakerabout independence because because of course what you did was bring together. You were part
- speakerof bringing in churches in but that comment that it took that took a period of time.
- speakerCan do that can bring when they got there to the because of that especially
- speakerbecause the converts.
- speakerWere so. Or so were you were feeding one
- speakerhundred curdle respect every week into western me your from our newsroom.
- speakerAnd I'm affected. The pastor So there you go
- speakerI was able to convince
- speakerthe pastors that I was not there as a
- speakercompetitor. And I was there as a mission that they're going to have to bring young.
- speakerBring bring them people to their church a little son in the back to you.
- speakerBut we've become a the many of the pastors you know. Really do not have the gift of the.
- speakerTrips to the bed of the people who can do that. Shepherds
- speakerwere absolutely. There were
- speakerteachers. Can you. It's just helpful though because every
- speakerevery
- speakersee.