Gene Bay oral history interview, part 5.

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    Some business people
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    not. Not any of the movers
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    and shakers of the town most of whom were
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    Roman Catholic.
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    And the police
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    force likewise a lot of Roman
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    Catholics on the police force.
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    So it was sort of a middle class
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    economically
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    somewhat conservative
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    and what I know what I learned
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    is like I didn't know this when
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    I went there.
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    What I learned was the community was really
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    racist in many
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    many ways.
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    Officially.
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    I mean the people
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    in the government were racist
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    and they were they
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    were very very few black families
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    in the community
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    and on two sides of
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    Norwood were were all black communities.
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    Evanston in Mount Carmel
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    and
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    the town authorities were intent
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    on keeping this as a white
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    community.
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    So I learned that it became
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    very very tough
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    because
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    six weeks after we arrived
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    Martin Luther King's assassinated
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    and Cincinnati exploded for the
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    second time in two years
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    with these all these these
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    two communities next door to us
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    urban riots burning city
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    so.
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    So here I am
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    I'm in new pastor at
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    night.
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    Had I had just gotten to know some
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    of the other Protestant
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    pastors in town
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    all of them were sort of my age.
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    Pretty much all young
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    and
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    we I remember we got
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    together and decided we should
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    we should go see the mayor.
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    Of Norwood
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    to express our concern about
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    this community
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    and its relationship to the neighboring
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    communities.
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    And his response.
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    He was a kind of a Mayor Daley
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    the mayor.
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    And his response to us literally
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    was to say.
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    I don't want you boys working
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    those blacks aren't going to come in here.
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    I've got hillbillies sitting on
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    their front porches
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    with their shotguns.
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    There can be trouble here.
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    So I was and you know that was the response
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    we got.
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    We in turn
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    decided that
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    we needed to do something
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    in response.
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    We needed somehow to see if
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    we couldn't reach out
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    and begin some kind of relationship
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    with these black communities
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    next door.
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    And.
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    We agreed that we would try to do that
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    and we had to at that point we had already
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    had some connection
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    with ministers and presidents
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    and ministers in those areas.
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    And so we began to make contact.
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    Would they be interested in
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    beginning to have some conversations between
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    our community and their community.
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    They said they would like to do
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    that.
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    And so we we planned this
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    event that was
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    and we were going to kick it off
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    with a fairly big event.
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    Mount St. Mary's Seminary a Roman
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    Catholic seminary was there
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    and they agreed that they
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    would host an event
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    and we our plan was to bring
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    people from our congregations
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    and people from these black congregations
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    all together for the first night
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    to have a sort of
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    a kickoff and we've begun to break up into
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    smaller groups and have conversations
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    with support that will go forward.
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    And that him that
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    the group said to me we really
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    need some of somebody
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    with stature in our community
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    to give a keynote address.
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    And we talked about who could do this.
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    We knew you know we're
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    going to ask the mayor
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    and his people if they weren't going to be in favor.
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    So the other guy
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    said to me Well
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    what about David Ramage.
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    He had been he'd been the chairman of the
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    school board there
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    and my response was to say
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    well you know he's he's
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    recovered from a heart attack.
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    I said but I'll ask you.
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    So I went to David
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    and asked him
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    and he said sure of
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    is an incredible story really.
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    So he had this event too I don't know we
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    had hundreds of people they were
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    pretty equal numbers blacks
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    and whites
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    and David gave this address.
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    It wasn't long maybe six
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    seven minutes
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    and the event went off fine
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    and everybody went home.
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    I went home.
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    And along
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    about midnight I get a call
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    from David's wife.
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    David has died.
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    I go immediately to the house.
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    And she told me the story.
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    She said Well David came home
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    and he had his usual bourbon
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    and branch water.
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    He told me once I have one for me
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    and one for the doctor
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    and she said you know he said
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    to me if I never do anything else
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    in my life I'm glad I did that
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    and he went upstairs
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    and Artec again
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    and died.
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    Well
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    I mean this is again
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    an enormous funeral.
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    Of course young David comes
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    and fattening families.
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    His sister is also married to a Presbyterian
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    minister.
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    And there are a lot of people from the board
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    national ambitions who came in
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    and
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    I mean he was it was
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    a really big service
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    and I remember the next
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    Sunday I did something which I had
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    I'd never ever did again.
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    I think is
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    I devoted the Sunday sermon.
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    To my reflections
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    about David Senior
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    and the courage that enabled
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    him to survive.
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    Really.
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    I mean it enabled me to
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    to use that experience
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    with him to open up
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    with the congregation the
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    importance of what we were doing
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    and
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    I mean I never I think I've never devoted
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    to some disarmament ever again.
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    To who is talking
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    about
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    somebody like that
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    and what is it. What that meant.
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    What it meant to me personally was
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    I had lost his
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    person that I.
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    Thought I was going to have a great
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    relationship with
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    and who was going to
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    help guide me
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    and my ministry there.
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    So it was a it was a
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    terrific loss for me.
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    Losing.
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    But it did it did establish
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    a relationship with young David that went
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    on for years and years
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    and years
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    and had an important
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    part to play in the in the
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    automobile thing that came along later
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    on.
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    We'll I'm sure we'll get to that
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    still alive
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    young David is not alive
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    anymore.
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    Ethan tragically he became president
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    of McCormick Seminary at the end
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    of his career
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    and then developed Alzheimer's.
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    And so it
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    was very sad because he really
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    was was not himself
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    and
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    O
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    you almost sounds
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    like he became deeply
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    involved in this community.
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    And
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    this is so different than where you're
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    just right.
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    Just the direct practice of it
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    did Gene ever ask you why didn't we get it.
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    I think we both thought that
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    at some point.
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    Now I think she was OK.
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    She for the first time
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    in Norwood
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    went to Xavier
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    and pursued a Masters degree
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    and
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    eventually
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    got involved in education
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    for the first time
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    and
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    as our as our children
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    remember our youngest daughter then
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    we had a Montessori school
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    and then the other two were in.
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    So we're with a lot of stories.
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    Oh gosh what it was it was in Cincinnati
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    someplace because it was tied
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    to a Catholic Church
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    or was it
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    separate.
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    I think it was separate needed
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    to separate.
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    So you're in a relatively large
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    urban area now right.
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    Obviously you know that you did you know stick
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    within the boundaries of Norwood
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    but you discovered that it was
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    a very segregated
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    city. Right.
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    Also with a large Appalachian population.
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    Well as is the whole region
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    you Dayton.
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    Are you proud RAZ You are
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    right in that Appalachian population
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    is mostly Kentucky right.
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    Did you read hillbilly lng.
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    No I'm pretty familiar
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    with this and it would be nice.
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    Yeah yeah that's Yeah.
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    I resonated when I read that I
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    said OK that's my experience basically
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    basically eastern Kentucky transport
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    right.
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    There. Right.
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    So which
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    is which is a very conservative
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    right.
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    So it's just it's just transplanted
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    so Cincinnati has kind of a
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    if you talk about
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    bipolar if you will
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    be hits has two personalities
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    and
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    it has a personality
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    of being a very progressive city
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    and the other side of the coin is skewed
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    backwards. Right.
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    So you discovered all of this right.
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    Yeah so
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    did you know that you set your
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    kids off to this.
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    I mean did you. Did you take the school
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    system.
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    Our daughter our daughter because
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    she was preschool.
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    Suddenly I was a preschool teacher
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    Tim. Two boys went to public
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    school the public school right.
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    Yeah. Yeah.
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    So
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    and you just basically mention this
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    but Norway
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    itself was
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    changing
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    in many different ways in terms of who was living
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    there.
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    You know if you're going
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    from you know middle class
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    which is your congregation
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    but the rest of Laoghaire
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    which is really blue collar
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    and which doesn't always match
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    from comedy
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    how many people in your congregation actually
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    work. Heart of the
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    automobile industry.
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    I mean management people.
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    Yes there are a few.
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    There were several industries there.
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    There was also
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    no one name.
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    There was a card company that was there
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    and there was another machinery
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    type company so we
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    we had some what I'd say mid
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    level management people.
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    They're not
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    no top management people that I recall
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    at all.
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    One man who had
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    a very significant position in that
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    had actually been that the
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    president have a publishing
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    company but that was not located
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    in Norwood itself.
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    And he didn't live in Norwood.
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    Actually he commuted.
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    And that's where his family had been
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    and he stayed there.
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    He and his wife so forth.
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    So the
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    actual strike that happened
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    I think was 1972
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    which was several years after you
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    arrived. Right.
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    So were you drawn into
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    other kinds of community activities
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    and events between
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    the time that we just discussed
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    this. Yes there was
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    a there was something.
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    Called the Norwood neighborhood improvement
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    association which
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    had been started by
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    a United Church of Christ pastor.
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    So he
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    and I became pretty close
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    and I became very involved in that.
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    It was not it was not the kind
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    of thing that you often think about those kind of
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    words and it wasn't to racially
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    protect.
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    It was actually its intent was
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    to try to improve the neighborhood
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    in a variety of ways.
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    And so we worked.
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    And it was sort of I mean we lobbied
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    that we lobbied the mayor
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    and supported in terms of various
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    community things that we wanted.
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    And there was another group that we
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    formed
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    that had
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    the more ecumenical church related
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    purpose.
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    I remember we tried to we tried to get involved
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    in
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    a housing project that we didn't
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    get anywhere with
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    but that kind of
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    thinking
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    and so
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    there was there was a fairly
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    good ecumenical spirit.
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    We had community Good Friday services
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    for example
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    and then there were other times
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    when we we do things
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    together.
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    So yeah I was involved in that.
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    And then I I was
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    increasingly involved in the presbytery
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    which which led me to
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    have relationships
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    with several of the African-American pastors
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    in the city.
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    And which
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    somewhat came out of that first experience
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    but it really was because we were working
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    together on a number of things
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    related to the presbytery.
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    So yeah it
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    also externally at this time
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    the Vietnam War was
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    it was had reached its apex
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    right.
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    And even Republican
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    senators
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    were saying that
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    it was in due
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    course.
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    Lyndon Johnson going into the election
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    of Nixon
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    who pledged to end the war.
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    Right. So you
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    were there
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    also external influences going on to.
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    I'm sure you have probably
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    families that had sons
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    or daughters who were in the air
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    was very very tough in that regard
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    because I was I was participating
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    in the war marches
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    mostly in Cincinnati.
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    I think we may have one in
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    or that I recall.
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    But
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    but there were families who had
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    had sons who
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    were there
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    and I
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    our our next door neighbor
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    and next door neighbors brother
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    was there and that
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    and that family was very active in the church.
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    So they were very
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    sensitive to any criticism
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    about the war.
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    So I began
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    to address it
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    but it was new as
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    one had to be careful
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    and one had to try to say
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    not criticizing the guys who were there
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    talking about the reason they are there why
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    they are there.
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    So yeah it was
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    there was very much going on.
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    Did you lose any evidence of that.
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    I don't think so.
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    I don't recall that that was
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    the case.
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    I mean this is one particular family
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    was
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    they were very loyal meaning
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    they would sometimes chastised me that
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    I was being too critical of the war.
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    But they hung in there
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    Richard.
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    Did you feel that you know again
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    before 72
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    as a result of what had happened
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    with David Ravitch that sort
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    of the Cetra the congregation
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    began to progress in
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    the direction that you would
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    like to see it go.
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    Yeah
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    I mean I felt there was
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    there was generally support
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    for what I was doing.
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    I mean not everybody was happy
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    but it was general support
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    and
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    I mean people liked me
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    and they they
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    they knew I was a good
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    pastor and over
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    the years.
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    One of the things I experienced was that
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    if you're a good pastor you can get away
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    with a lot.
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    Of people knew you loved
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    them and cared about them.
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    You get away with a lot.
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    And I guess
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    you might wonder what will you speak
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    to this to that.
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    There is something about corporate trust
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    in the person who has
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    the church.
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    The other thing that goes along
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    with that
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    is how much you leave it.
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    How much do you try to
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    initiate leadership within the congregation.
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    Was that going on at the same
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    time.
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    I mean I learned that
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    over the years I mean one
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    of my third church
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    guys youth who spoke one
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    Bryn Mawr had to recognize
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    my 4 year anniversary of ordination
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    and they act surprised me
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    and had people from all these other churches
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    come.
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    One of the things the warnings Jack
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    said at that point was
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    Gene Bay gets people
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    to think it's their idea
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    and goes off.
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    I mean I I
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    knew Bill that.
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    I wasn't afraid to lead.
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    But I knew I had to.
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    I couldn't get so far out front of people
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    that I didn't have a followers there.
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    So I had to bring them along.
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    I knew that.
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    And there are instances in my ministry
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    where I wasn't the leader I was
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    there were people who
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    took me in directions that I needed
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    to go.
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    So it wasn't a one way street by any
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    means.
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    Well tell me about 1972
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    when the General Motors strike
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    and
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    you were part of a group of pastors
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    local pastors.
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    Were you at that time that
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    dealt with that.
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    Well that particular
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    automobile plant had had
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    a history of difficulty
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    labor issues.
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    But that
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    was the year when there was a wildcat
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    strike there which
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    became the law.
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    At that point Kip became the longest WOB
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    strike was
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    kept striking in GM history
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    hundreds of before.
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    OK.
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    But it had started
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    sometime in the spring
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    and I went away on vacation
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    and I think in August
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    and it was still going on
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    and I when I returned
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    it was still going on.
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    And I remember meeting
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    with some other pastors
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    and saying you know we've
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    got to do something we've got to try to do
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    something to get this thing off
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    dead center
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    and none of us
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    knew.
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    What world to do.
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    I didn't know what in the world to do.
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    That's when my connection
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    with David Ramage's Jr. came in
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    to play because David was
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    still with the board national vision.
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    So I called David
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    and I said you know this is
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    what's going on.
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    What what kind of help can you provide.
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    And he said well you need to call Marshal Scott
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    who is a McCormick Seminary
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    and whose field was.
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    Relating to urban ministry
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    and industry
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    and all this kind of thing.
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    So I called Marshal
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    Scott out of the blue
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    and
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    and
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    he essentially I
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    said you know I'm.
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    I'm a babe in the woods
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    or I don't know what to do.
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    And he said you just got
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    to get in there
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    and you got to speak for the community.
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    And he said
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    he gave me the name
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    of
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    one of the labor guys.
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    I think the UAW one of the
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    labor guys like his name was
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    Bluestone.
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    I recall he said you call
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    him so I
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    called him
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    and he said
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    You guys just need to get in there.
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    And then voices the community.
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    So that's what we did.
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    And we then several
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    of us went to meet
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    with some of my management
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    and we said you know
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    the community's hurting here.
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    We're here to speak about
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    the impact of this on the community
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    economically.
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    It's being destructive
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    and you guys got to
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    get together and settle
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    this thing.
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    And that's essentially what we did.
  • speaker
    And I don't you know to what extent
  • speaker
    that had
  • speaker
    how much influence that had.
  • speaker
    I suspect that.
  • speaker
    People were already in management.
  • speaker
    Or are they saying this has gone on long
  • speaker
    enough that we need to try to do something.
  • speaker
    But in any case
  • speaker
    they got serious about negotiations
  • speaker
    and the strike was eventually
  • speaker
    sooner actually talking to people
  • speaker
    talking to management again management.
  • speaker
    Yeah I do.
  • speaker
    And they I mean they're
  • speaker
    very polite
  • speaker
    and received this they didn't
  • speaker
    make any commitments as I recall
  • speaker
    to us
  • speaker
    but they essentially said
  • speaker
    yeah we understand what you're saying.
  • speaker
    So your envisioned
  • speaker
    doing something like that of yours.
  • speaker
    No no.
  • speaker
    As I said I mean I I
  • speaker
    didn't I didn't have a clue as to what
  • speaker
    to do.
  • speaker
    But for me the
  • speaker
    Presbyterian minister involved the Labor
  • speaker
    Right actually
  • speaker
    of national importance right.
  • speaker
    Incredible.
  • speaker
    But obviously
  • speaker
    that experience would pay dividends
  • speaker
    in Youngstown.
  • speaker
    Huge dividends in Youngstown because
  • speaker
    it really said to me
  • speaker
    Hey you can you
  • speaker
    can do something here you can do this.
  • speaker
    It could be like a different set of
  • speaker
    heavy.
  • speaker
    It is a human being
  • speaker
    is one person.
  • speaker
    No no what we were discussing
  • speaker
    earlier before we started taping
  • speaker
    as potentially
  • speaker
    being frustrated about not being able
  • speaker
    to do things get it
  • speaker
    either reward rational sense
  • speaker
    but in a sense
  • speaker
    in a sense that's incorrect.
  • speaker
    Right. Because you
  • speaker
    did.
  • speaker
    Even though you just said you just told me that
  • speaker
    you're not really sure what kind of your right.
  • speaker
    I suspect
  • speaker
    police reacted as
  • speaker
    but I suspect underneath all of this.
  • speaker
    I think that you did make a difference.
  • speaker
    Well I hope so.
  • speaker
    I mean yeah I hope so.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    at the end of the day it was
  • speaker
    it was a good experience for me.
  • speaker
    I mean it was a new experience that said Geez
  • speaker
    there are resources out there that one
  • speaker
    can be in touch
  • speaker
    with.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    You know issue maybe you can
  • speaker
    make a difference in these
  • speaker
    ways.
  • speaker
    I mean there are things that happened as a result
  • speaker
    of the energy of the strike.
  • speaker
    Whether you can put it this
  • speaker
    or not. For better
  • speaker
    or for worse. But you
  • speaker
    I read up on this.
  • speaker
    General Motors move is no
  • speaker
    production because
  • speaker
    no Spanish when they move that
  • speaker
    to Mexico means no go
  • speaker
    ahead.
  • speaker
    They believe that a way to protect
  • speaker
    it against future strikes.
  • speaker
    The workers lost nineteen point two million
  • speaker
    dollars as a result
  • speaker
    in wages.
  • speaker
    The UAW paid out three
  • speaker
    point two billion dollars in strike benefits.
  • speaker
    Six hundred areas of wires lost
  • speaker
    billions of dollars.
  • speaker
    We a strike
  • speaker
    in the city of Norwich last.
  • speaker
    Fifteen thousand dollars a week in
  • speaker
    taxes taxes.
  • speaker
    It was a disaster right
  • speaker
    through the community right.
  • speaker
    It was actually a disaster for General Motors
  • speaker
    right. Yeah right.
  • speaker
    There was a no win situation right.
  • speaker
    Yeah right.
  • speaker
    You're sitting right in the middle.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Wow.
  • speaker
    I mean I wasn't I I wasn't there.
  • speaker
    I don't I don't I don't think
  • speaker
    I've been aware of some of those numbers
  • speaker
    at the time. But I think I was
  • speaker
    aware. I think I was aware that
  • speaker
    the city Byzantine taxes
  • speaker
    and obviously we
  • speaker
    we probably didn't know how much
  • speaker
    but we knew workers weren't being paid
  • speaker
    for it.
  • speaker
    If you were to
  • speaker
    make a generalization
  • speaker
    or or something you were
  • speaker
    appointed how would you how would you assess
  • speaker
    your time at Erwitt
  • speaker
    overall.
  • speaker
    First word I would use is tough
  • speaker
    just because of the racism
  • speaker
    that was in the community
  • speaker
    as a whole.
  • speaker
    So it was I didn't realize
  • speaker
    until I left how draining
  • speaker
    experience had been
  • speaker
    in those kinds of term
  • speaker
    but overall
  • speaker
    I would see the ministry
  • speaker
    was positive there.
  • speaker
    In in a number of ways
  • speaker
    and I mean some of the
  • speaker
    impact on the community in that
  • speaker
    the church was in pretty good
  • speaker
    shape when I left
  • speaker
    I had also become.
  • speaker
    I become respected in both
  • speaker
    the Presbyterian Synod.
  • speaker
    Those were the
  • speaker
    days when you were
  • speaker
    with you recall that that was a days when
  • speaker
    the church was trying to put together
  • speaker
    regional Synod's
  • speaker
    Kentucky Ohio Pennsylvania
  • speaker
    and Michigan was the
  • speaker
    synod that so
  • speaker
    for some reason or another.
  • speaker
    Again I don't know exactly how it happened
  • speaker
    but I got involved in that
  • speaker
    in the initial stages
  • speaker
    of the planning for that
  • speaker
    was that Living Waters.
  • speaker
    We like that. No it was the Synod of
  • speaker
    the covenant.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    was involved in the initial
  • speaker
    conversations about how we're going to put
  • speaker
    this thing together.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    and then I was asked to chair what became
  • speaker
    the planning division of the
  • speaker
    new Synod
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    so it began to make a lot of
  • speaker
    more contacts region
  • speaker
    wide.
  • speaker
    And I became familiar
  • speaker
    with pastors from Kentucky
  • speaker
    and Michigan
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    And that would ultimately lead
  • speaker
    somebody recommending me to
  • speaker
    the church in Youngstown
  • speaker
    but
  • speaker
    so ultimately when I was in Youngstown
  • speaker
    Hollamby became the Chair
  • speaker
    of the Senate Commission Council which was
  • speaker
    a pretty big deal
  • speaker
    that the whole
  • speaker
    scheme of regional Synods.
  • speaker
    It was it was not
  • speaker
    didn't work and
  • speaker
    for a lot of reasons.
  • speaker
    So it ultimately failed.
  • speaker
    COOPER Yeah.
  • speaker
    One of the things that you you you've
  • speaker
    alluded to just a few minutes ago
  • speaker
    when we were off
  • speaker
    the record recorder is he also got
  • speaker
    into fair housing activities.
  • speaker
    Tell me more about that.
  • speaker
    Well you know
  • speaker
    I told you earlier that this
  • speaker
    community was like the
  • speaker
    powers that be were intent on keeping
  • speaker
    it white.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    a number of us pastors
  • speaker
    somehow got involved in
  • speaker
    a movement to support
  • speaker
    the fair housing initiative
  • speaker
    and what
  • speaker
    are reminding me of is that
  • speaker
    we signed open
  • speaker
    letters.
  • speaker
    I guess it got printed in the local
  • speaker
    newspaper.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    we began to get calls
  • speaker
    at our home people
  • speaker
    protesting that we were doing
  • speaker
    this and telling
  • speaker
    us to mind our own business
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    Fair housing just wasn't a problem for
  • speaker
    Cincinnati was a problem for
  • speaker
    many Midwestern states.
  • speaker
    Take you learn about the Mason-Dixon line.
  • speaker
    You probably was the
  • speaker
    most evident
  • speaker
    area discrimination.
  • speaker
    That one could see in the north
  • speaker
    right at this time.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    All right.
  • speaker
    So I mean it was it was
  • speaker
    it was everywhere.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Well again I was just I mean I was
  • speaker
    I guess I was screwing
  • speaker
    up my courage
  • speaker
    and taking on a number of these things.
  • speaker
    We are similar
  • speaker
    with what's happened to the north which are
  • speaker
    now only
  • speaker
    a little.
  • speaker
    I think that the church is now
  • speaker
    like a storefront isn't it.
  • speaker
    I think yeah yeah.
  • speaker
    It's.
  • speaker
    What I read about this
  • speaker
    and if you don't mind interject so
  • speaker
    say sure it was sold
  • speaker
    the ones you have to play right
  • speaker
    in the congregation is working
  • speaker
    worshiping out of an old renovated
  • speaker
    Hudson car dealership.
  • speaker
    Best for you all.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Because it's disappeared long time you go to
  • speaker
    Montgomery Road.
  • speaker
    And they have a part time administrative
  • speaker
    assistant of music director.
  • speaker
    This is an a conservatory
  • speaker
    and weekly guest pastors.
  • speaker
    And you an indication of that before you
  • speaker
    came long before
  • speaker
    you approved of church and.
  • speaker
    Substantial Oh yes.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Right.
  • speaker
    So it's so.
  • speaker
    So here's a second church
  • speaker
    that you have to write.
  • speaker
    It's got be literally
  • speaker
    history right.
  • speaker
    So what led you
  • speaker
    to to go
  • speaker
    to Youngstown.
  • speaker
    What led you to believe it.
  • speaker
    Let me also ask that same time
  • speaker
    in terms of your
  • speaker
    your own sustenance
  • speaker
    and so forth I mean
  • speaker
    you go into Norwood
  • speaker
    had hit hopefully
  • speaker
    increased you know
  • speaker
    your ability of your family to to
  • speaker
    grow and so and so forth.
  • speaker
    I mean in terms of yes
  • speaker
    yes. Yeah I mean I don't
  • speaker
    jeez I don't have any idea
  • speaker
    what what I was paid in those days.
  • speaker
    I no longer had a man.
  • speaker
    So we had to own their own home
  • speaker
    which we we purchased a home
  • speaker
    that would also give you equity that you were
  • speaker
    ready for.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Pretty important right.
  • speaker
    And we actually bought a home
  • speaker
    that was smack dab
  • speaker
    my art our neighbors were mostly
  • speaker
    Kentucky people.
  • speaker
    Initially it was a modest
  • speaker
    very modest house
  • speaker
    with fairly small backyard
  • speaker
    no front yard at all.
  • speaker
    And then kind of midway
  • speaker
    through that period.
  • speaker
    One of the church members who
  • speaker
    had a very nice home
  • speaker
    brick home much larger
  • speaker
    than the one we had
  • speaker
    was a main lady
  • speaker
    and she was going to move
  • speaker
    out of and she's she came to me
  • speaker
    and said I've always envisioned this as being
  • speaker
    a home.
  • speaker
    I'd like my pastor
  • speaker
    to own
  • speaker
    and so she made it.
  • speaker
    I mean she didn't put it on
  • speaker
    the market. She enabled us
  • speaker
    to buy it and we lived there
  • speaker
    very happily for
  • speaker
    several years.
  • speaker
    So yeah and we we
  • speaker
    we did have some equity.
  • speaker
    When we when we left Cincinnati.
  • speaker
    I mean you talk about a perk that's
  • speaker
    no way to that's the other side of
  • speaker
    having events right.
  • speaker
    Exactly.
  • speaker
    Also in terms of moving it's
  • speaker
    you go.
  • speaker
    Yes right.
  • speaker
    So it's
  • speaker
    and that home was I mean
  • speaker
    that was an easy home to sell because
  • speaker
    it was a very attractive home
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    so what what
  • speaker
    led you to go to you.
  • speaker
    Well I think again
  • speaker
    my recollection is this as I began
  • speaker
    talking with some of my colleagues that
  • speaker
    been involved in this.
  • speaker
    All this Senate business.
  • speaker
    I
  • speaker
    I began to feel like it was
  • speaker
    there was OK time to move
  • speaker
    on and I was being encouraged
  • speaker
    in that direction by
  • speaker
    some of my colleagues that
  • speaker
    there were opportunities that I should be
  • speaker
    looking at
  • speaker
    and actually started
  • speaker
    somehow.
  • speaker
    One of those people
  • speaker
    put my name into the
  • speaker
    committee and in Fairmount
  • speaker
    in Cleveland the Fairmount
  • speaker
    church which has a very
  • speaker
    substantial church
  • speaker
    and as it
  • speaker
    as it turned out in the in the
  • speaker
    conversations
  • speaker
    I ended up being one of the
  • speaker
    finalists for that committee
  • speaker
    and in fact
  • speaker
    I preached for the committee
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    And I think I
  • speaker
    got a call from the chairman saying
  • speaker
    we've decided to go in a different direction.
  • speaker
    We're not and I wasn't
  • speaker
    I wasn't really disappointed.
  • speaker
    And as I reflected on it especially
  • speaker
    as they are inflicted on it in later years
  • speaker
    I was a kid I wasn't ready
  • speaker
    for that.
  • speaker
    I wasn't ready for that church.
  • speaker
    I just think
  • speaker
    God had been eaten alive there.
  • speaker
    So I was
  • speaker
    I wasn't upset about it at all.
  • speaker
    I was kind of gratified geez I'm here.
  • speaker
    I'm a young 30 something
  • speaker
    guy. I
  • speaker
    got considered for that.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    it was at the same time that the Youngstown
  • speaker
    church had expressed interest
  • speaker
    in me as well and I hadn't really had a conversation
  • speaker
    because I was pursuing this Cleveland thing
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    and I remember being I
  • speaker
    remember being visited by
  • speaker
    two couples who the
  • speaker
    the the wife of one man
  • speaker
    and the husband of the other were on
  • speaker
    the PNC at Youngstown
  • speaker
    and they came on announced to
  • speaker
    Norwood to hear me preach.
  • speaker
    And then we met.
  • speaker
    They introduced themselves
  • speaker
    and we met afterwards
  • speaker
    and they
  • speaker
    began talking with me about that
  • speaker
    and about the possibility of coming there
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    and then I remember being
  • speaker
    going to Youngstown to meet
  • speaker
    the chairman of the committee
  • speaker
    and he was the head
  • speaker
    of the biggest bank in town.
  • speaker
    Very substantial guy.
  • speaker
    And we just had a conversation at his golf
  • speaker
    club one night
  • speaker
    and then that led to
  • speaker
    the whole committee wanting to to
  • speaker
    meet me and there was a pretty
  • speaker
    good size committee.
  • speaker
    Probably 15 people in all.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    again the usual preach
  • speaker
    for them in a neutral bowl
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    the idea of a downtown
  • speaker
    church began to intrigued
  • speaker
    me and possibilities of what
  • speaker
    that might mean.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    anyway it happened they became
  • speaker
    very excited about me coming in
  • speaker
    and we decided
  • speaker
    to go
  • speaker
    and here's 1974 1974
  • speaker
    in the Vietnam
  • speaker
    War is almost over
  • speaker
    as far as the states.
  • speaker
    Are Right.
  • speaker
    So it's a it's a it's a period
  • speaker
    of time that your children are how
  • speaker
    old are you.
  • speaker
    The boys are getting ready
  • speaker
    to go
  • speaker
    into middle school I guess the oldest
  • speaker
    boy is getting ready.
  • speaker
    Interesting thing is he
  • speaker
    became Cincinnati Reds fans
  • speaker
    during the time the heartwood
  • speaker
    and they are the ones
  • speaker
    still to this day
  • speaker
    Cincinnati Reds fan because
  • speaker
    he was really good yeah.
  • speaker
    Big Red Machine.
  • speaker
    Right exactly.
  • speaker
    Awesome actually yeah
  • speaker
    yeah.
  • speaker
    I remember I remember we
  • speaker
    had we
  • speaker
    had tickets for the World Series
  • speaker
    the year that they
  • speaker
    did not they lost the National
  • speaker
    League championship.
  • speaker
    And I remember when I had actually had the tickets
  • speaker
    in hand and so I did children's
  • speaker
    sermon that morning
  • speaker
    and talk about disappointment.
  • speaker
    These kids were really
  • speaker
    disappointed.
  • speaker
    But they had
  • speaker
    so you know they were
  • speaker
    they weren't all that enthused.
  • speaker
    They loved they loved the Reds
  • speaker
    they loved the Bengals.
  • speaker
    It was hard because the Indians fans
  • speaker
    and Oscar Robertson know it
  • speaker
    was you know they got the Cincinnati
  • speaker
    Royals. But from a standpoint of schools
  • speaker
    the good Tiger transition.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah. But I think probably
  • speaker
    was also a factor.
  • speaker
    Right. Right.
  • speaker
    The right to vote and rightly so
  • speaker
    Youngstown was
  • speaker
    literally sealed.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Could you just sort of describe
  • speaker
    it for me in terms of
  • speaker
    how it seemed to you
  • speaker
    and how it fell
  • speaker
    in terms of your previous
  • speaker
    two masters.
  • speaker
    Well first of all it became very clear
  • speaker
    that the congregation had
  • speaker
    people of substance
  • speaker
    a lot of
  • speaker
    prominent business people
  • speaker
    banking people
  • speaker
    educators
  • speaker
    but just
  • speaker
    just people of intellectual
  • speaker
    substance as well as financial substance
  • speaker
    so it became
  • speaker
    quite apparent to me early
  • speaker
    on that
  • speaker
    I was preaching to people
  • speaker
    who had impact in the
  • speaker
    community.
  • speaker
    Whatever influence I would have on them
  • speaker
    they would have influence on the community
  • speaker
    is very clear to me about that.
  • speaker
    It's always funny the prestera executive
  • speaker
    told me when I
  • speaker
    came there he said
  • speaker
    a joke obviously he
  • speaker
    said well because that
  • speaker
    also was a town that had a lot
  • speaker
    of labor problems.
  • speaker
    I mean they'd had a very serious steel
  • speaker
    strike with deaths
  • speaker
    and so forth and bowl in the 1930s
  • speaker
    and the atmosphere of labor
  • speaker
    and management was still
  • speaker
    not good at all.
  • speaker
    And also says predator executives
  • speaker
    said to me well
  • speaker
    send your wife out to start a car in the
  • speaker
    morning.
  • speaker
    And because there
  • speaker
    are episodes of you
  • speaker
    and there was a mafia element
  • speaker
    in Youngstown as well
  • speaker
    very heavily steel
  • speaker
    oriented several steel
  • speaker
    companies there
  • speaker
    Youngstown Sheet and Tube was the oldest
  • speaker
    and most prominent
  • speaker
    prepare Bethlehem Steel was there United
  • speaker
    States Steel was there several
  • speaker
    smaller steel
  • speaker
    companies.
  • speaker
    And there are many companies that supply
  • speaker
    things to the mills
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    So that people
  • speaker
    would would say to me when I first got they
  • speaker
    say to me well when we put our workshop
  • speaker
    on the line
  • speaker
    and it's and it gets soot on it that's
  • speaker
    a good sign. That means the economy
  • speaker
    is doing well here.
  • speaker
    Not so much the case when
  • speaker
    I got there. Not a bit earlier than
  • speaker
    that telling us the kind of thing they said
  • speaker
    you know that means economy's
  • speaker
    going well
  • speaker
    the church itself had been
  • speaker
    a pretty prominent
  • speaker
    and then had a series of long
  • speaker
    term castrates
  • speaker
    and the my immediate
  • speaker
    predecessor had been there 20
  • speaker
    some years 27 years
  • speaker
    I think
  • speaker
    was was
  • speaker
    well liked but.
  • speaker
    But people had come to think that
  • speaker
    his
  • speaker
    preaching was pretty mediocre.
  • speaker
    He's a former music minister of music
  • speaker
    and he was minister of music at that church
  • speaker
    when his
  • speaker
    senior pastor was killed in an automobile
  • speaker
    accident. And
  • speaker
    as I heard the story some people said he
  • speaker
    kind of manipulated himself into
  • speaker
    the senior position.
  • speaker
    But he was he was well loved
  • speaker
    and and he was right
  • speaker
    there in the congregation.
  • speaker
    Almost every Sunday morning
  • speaker
    and his wife were there
  • speaker
    and they didn't abide by
  • speaker
    the kind of
  • speaker
    Presbyterian rule that says you depart.
  • speaker
    He was right there.
  • speaker
    Stay there.
  • speaker
    So it was probably
  • speaker
    awkward initially because you get over.
  • speaker
    Oh yeah. It wasn't it wasn't
  • speaker
    a big deal for me.
  • speaker
    I mean I
  • speaker
    especially as I I would hear people
  • speaker
    say things like you know
  • speaker
    his preaching wasn't all that good
  • speaker
    you know he put up with it
  • speaker
    and the music program
  • speaker
    was very strong.
  • speaker
    Youngstown Dana's School of Music
  • speaker
    was at Youngstown State there
  • speaker
    and so Youngstown
  • speaker
    State was nearby to
  • speaker
    the church as well.
  • speaker
    The Penguins Yeah.
  • speaker
    And it wasn't quite
  • speaker
    as prominent in the community as it's
  • speaker
    become these days.
  • speaker
    But still you know still a
  • speaker
    significant presence in the community
  • speaker
    and the church is on the
  • speaker
    hill looking over downtown.
  • speaker
    It's a pretty nice building.
  • speaker
    It is a lovely building the best
  • speaker
    invest study
  • speaker
    office space I ever had.
  • speaker
    I mean it's huge.
  • speaker
    And they had they had a remodeling
  • speaker
    program built new educational
  • speaker
    wing and sanctuary.
  • speaker
    It
  • speaker
    was lovely it was old colonial
  • speaker
    white
  • speaker
    and it's a lovely
  • speaker
    place to worship
  • speaker
    and preach
  • speaker
    and your congregation was part of the Kremlin
  • speaker
    kind of stuff.
  • speaker
    Yeah yeah they were
  • speaker
    they were really
  • speaker
    socially and
  • speaker
    certainly economically.
  • speaker
    And they had influence.
  • speaker
    I mean I think they were it was one
  • speaker
    of those situations they were
  • speaker
    quietly influential there are very
  • speaker
    few.
  • speaker
    There were a few but very few had held
  • speaker
    public office.
  • speaker
    But there was a common pleas judge in the congregation
  • speaker
    and those in you know the
  • speaker
    the the chair of the PNC
  • speaker
    was the
  • speaker
    present chair of that mining bank
  • speaker
    which was the big bank downtown ministry
  • speaker
    it clear that our young had
  • speaker
    had the ear of the mayor
  • speaker
    and so forth.
  • speaker
    So yeah.
  • speaker
    So when you
  • speaker
    landed with your family
  • speaker
    it was pretty good situation
  • speaker
    that one right was.
  • speaker
    We weren't we weren't.
  • speaker
    We were told
  • speaker
    not that the Youngstown's
  • speaker
    schools were not good.
  • speaker
    So we were encouraged to
  • speaker
    to pick a residence in one of
  • speaker
    the suburbs.
  • speaker
    And we did
  • speaker
    that.
  • speaker
    We we picked the
  • speaker
    Liberty Township which was the
  • speaker
    northern part of the city.
  • speaker
    So I had a No I don't know
  • speaker
    10 15 minute commute to the church
  • speaker
    I guess
  • speaker
    but the Liberty
  • speaker
    School System was a pretty good
  • speaker
    system.
  • speaker
    But you also drew from
  • speaker
    Liberty.
  • speaker
    Yeah we drove from the suburban keep.
  • speaker
    And you know it was yeah basically
  • speaker
    a modest regional.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Boardman was sent her to
  • speaker
    the south and Canfield was
  • speaker
    also about that in that direction.
  • speaker
    We had members from both those places
  • speaker
    as well as liberty.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So also this is
  • speaker
    the first time you get a pretty lucky
  • speaker
    winner.
  • speaker
    Winters also
  • speaker
    yeah although not so
  • speaker
    bad not too bad
  • speaker
    not so bad.
  • speaker
    The kids probably like it.
  • speaker
    Yeah yeah.
  • speaker
    More snow Yeah yeah we're
  • speaker
    more lake effect snow coming
  • speaker
    down from Lake Erie.
  • speaker
    Yeah yeah yeah.
  • speaker
    So you are still rooting
  • speaker
    for the Bengals
  • speaker
    and the reds that are
  • speaker
    the Browns and the Indians well
  • speaker
    and they actually fled the Youngstown
  • speaker
    football team which are one of our
  • speaker
    one of our neighbors a physician.
  • speaker
    Also on PNC
  • speaker
    was near neighbor
  • speaker
    and took a liking to our boys
  • speaker
    and he was a big Penguins fan so
  • speaker
    he took he take the boys to football
  • speaker
    games.
  • speaker
    Yeah yeah.
  • speaker
    So so so
  • speaker
    by lawyers I mean do you remember
  • speaker
    approximately what you were making of that point.
  • speaker
    You know Bill I really don't.
  • speaker
    Well I mean it you know I don't think
  • speaker
    it's relevance today.
  • speaker
    Yes in terms of what
  • speaker
    biopower is.
  • speaker
    I don't have a
  • speaker
    copy.
  • speaker
    Dr.
  • speaker
    did you have to
  • speaker
    thanks.
  • speaker
    Well we didn't. First you didn't
  • speaker
    at first and then
  • speaker
    it wasn't long before
  • speaker
    we had a chance to add to the staff
  • speaker
    because when I got
  • speaker
    there there wasn't any staff except
  • speaker
    a music director
  • speaker
    and part time Christian educators
  • speaker
    so that always had an associate
  • speaker
    pastor so.
  • speaker
    So we formed the Committee
  • speaker
    and got that in
  • speaker
    and soon after Byrd
  • speaker
    arrived.
  • speaker
    One of the
  • speaker
    leaders of the church came to us
  • speaker
    and said You guys
  • speaker
    were going to Elise you guys cars
  • speaker
    so that you have your own cars.
  • speaker
    And so they
  • speaker
    gave me to Pontiac's for
  • speaker
    the two of us. We checked the leased car
  • speaker
    and then that not allowed.
  • speaker
    But I think the car we had to separate the
  • speaker
    car was a Ford.
  • speaker
    Our next door neighbor was a Ford dealer
  • speaker
    and I think that led us to go
  • speaker
    to buy a Ford
  • speaker
    station wagon any recollection of what
  • speaker
    size the church was you would have thought about that
  • speaker
    at least during that period of time here.
  • speaker
    I get a couple hundred thousand dollars probably.
  • speaker
    So yeah.
  • speaker
    So yeah probably
  • speaker
    which is at that point in time
  • speaker
    is pretty substantial Yeah.
  • speaker
    No. Yes.
  • speaker
    So it's helping members
  • speaker
    approximately are
  • speaker
    you. I mean I guess I guess
  • speaker
    when you look at it membership you're also
  • speaker
    looking at households
  • speaker
    who are heavily Plec
  • speaker
    pledging you.
  • speaker
    That's right.
  • speaker
    I guess a membership at that time
  • speaker
    was somewhere in the neighborhood of twelve hundred.
  • speaker
    It's a good size knows
  • speaker
    it was at that stage yeah good change.
  • speaker
    So you mentioned
  • speaker
    the previous minister who had been the minister
  • speaker
    of music.
  • speaker
    So did you even though he's
  • speaker
    no longer the minister of music I see that
  • speaker
    you have since you had a separate
  • speaker
    Mr. music that you have
  • speaker
    read of the program.
  • speaker
    Very good.
  • speaker
    Yeah I was very close.
  • speaker
    It was the best I've ever experienced at that point.
  • speaker
    Gannaway some of the some of
  • speaker
    the people were associate
  • speaker
    with Danish School of Music some of
  • speaker
    the people in the choir.
  • speaker
    And generally it was a good choir.
  • speaker
    Good musician leads me to to
  • speaker
    maybe you know to to explore your philosophy
  • speaker
    of the integration of music into the
  • speaker
    service. What was it
  • speaker
    from your vantage point what role
  • speaker
    should be used. Paul
  • speaker
    Oh I think it I think it plays a very important
  • speaker
    role
  • speaker
    and one of the things that I did starting
  • speaker
    in Youngstown
  • speaker
    and I guess I started didn't Norwood a little
  • speaker
    bit too but really in Youngstown
  • speaker
    became very serious about trying to.
  • speaker
    Connect what was going on
  • speaker
    with music and
  • speaker
    and the rest of the worship service
  • speaker
    themes
  • speaker
    of the anthems
  • speaker
    hymns of course.
  • speaker
    I mean I've been trying to do that before
  • speaker
    but now I had a professional musician
  • speaker
    I could talk
  • speaker
    with about that kind of thing.
  • speaker
    And again the the
  • speaker
    planning my planning wouldn't now.
  • speaker
    Bill Miller who was the minister
  • speaker
    of music wasn't he wasn't the
  • speaker
    minister who was a music director.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    Allowed him to to
  • speaker
    have some have some time
  • speaker
    to plan. OK what
  • speaker
    anthems guys like they go
  • speaker
    for this thing.
  • speaker
    So I think
  • speaker
    the one reinforces the other if it's done
  • speaker
    done right
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    people just a lot of people
  • speaker
    just appreciate good music
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    and good congregational singing
  • speaker
    so you know
  • speaker
    to have a strong
  • speaker
    organist
  • speaker
    and have a choir that's
  • speaker
    up there belting out the hymns
  • speaker
    and leading the congregation
  • speaker
    and singing.
  • speaker
    I think to watch them
  • speaker
    and Portland is another
  • speaker
    way of worship Christ.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah.
  • speaker
    Really had talked too much about your
  • speaker
    own background in terms of you know
  • speaker
    the kind of choir that you had in the church
  • speaker
    50 miles away.
  • speaker
    So it's worth it.
  • speaker
    I mean had you as is
  • speaker
    as a young person in
  • speaker
    it all the rest of your your
  • speaker
    time up to we developed
  • speaker
    a really
  • speaker
    inclination towards music.
  • speaker
    I mean is it something that you voice appreciated
  • speaker
    or is it something that was
  • speaker
    not necessarily
  • speaker
    that important to you.
  • speaker
    I appreciate
  • speaker
    it.
  • speaker
    My appreciation of classical music
  • speaker
    grew as I grew
  • speaker
    in years.
  • speaker
    That wasn't something that was important
  • speaker
    to me growing up
  • speaker
    or early on the Bethel
  • speaker
    Church where I grew up.
  • speaker
    I actually had a fairly decent
  • speaker
    choir
  • speaker
    and a very good organist.
  • speaker
    And so I had been
  • speaker
    used to you
  • speaker
    know decent music
  • speaker
    in the church now
  • speaker
    and in Jordan
  • speaker
    and Darlington it was you know
  • speaker
    as I told you the choir was
  • speaker
    very small it wasn't very good.
  • speaker
    Norwood was better
  • speaker
    Darwin's budget allowed.
  • speaker
    He was a director.
  • speaker
    I have a couple of paid soloists
  • speaker
    so that you added
  • speaker
    as the straight to the choir.
  • speaker
    But it was really I think in in Youngstown
  • speaker
    and there on that that
  • speaker
    I really began to appreciate.
  • speaker
    Boy this is this this is
  • speaker
    a strength of this church.
  • speaker
    Did you have a bass.
  • speaker
    What was that.
  • speaker
    Yes you do have the perception
  • speaker
    I think only probably one
  • speaker
    per section.
  • speaker
    And yeah I think that's
  • speaker
    right. There have been three
  • speaker
    or four altogether.
  • speaker
    Now Hawler for the quarter
  • speaker
    I was probably 30 ish.
  • speaker
    It's a good thing.
  • speaker
    Well I'm going to have to
  • speaker
    do this. All right.

In collections

Details
Title

Gene Bay oral history interview, part 5.

Creator

Marshall, William J. (interviewer)
Bay, Eugene Cooper,, 1937- (interviewee)

Date

2018
January 23-24, 2018

Type of resource

sound recording-nonmusical

Genre

interviews
oral histories
sound recordings

Form

born digital

Extent

0.561 GB (1 WAV file)

Language

English

Subject names

Bay, Eugene Cooper,, 1937-

Geographic subjects

North and Central America--United States--Pennsylvania--Newtown Square--Delaware

Rights status

Contact repository for more information

Rights status

COPYRIGHT NOT EVALUATED; http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/CNE/1.0/

Note

Recorded on January 23-24 at Gene Bay's residence in Newtown Square, Pennsylvania.

Physical location

ARCHIVES 18-0209; Presbyterian Historical Society, Philadelphia, PA

Related item

Gene Bay oral history interview, 2018.--http://prestohost68.inmagic.com/Presto/content/Detail.aspx?ctID=Y2RiNWNk...

Identifier (local)

DR-100_0003-02

PID (Persistent Identifier)

islandora:116240

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