Greg Partridge, Doug Potter, and Mary Rees oral history, 2019.

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  • speaker
    All right. So this is Elizabeth
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    Wittrig interviewing Greg Partridge
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    and Doug Potter and Mary Rees on
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    June 1st 2019.
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    So how did you guys come to
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    the Downtown Church?
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    Was it because of Janie?
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    Absolutely.
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    Yeah, we had been attending
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    Third Presbyterian Church
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    for a few weeks
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    and someone
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    had suggested to us that
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    Janie Spahr was preaching
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    at the Downtown Church and that we
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    might want to
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    hear what she had to say.
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    And Jane.
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    No, not Jane.
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    Susie.
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    Susie.
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    Susie someone.
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    Had been, was a
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    friend of ours and was encouraging
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    us to come to to Downtown Church.
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    She was very active here at that
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    time.
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    Sue and Jane. So anyway.
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    Oh yes.
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    We came to Downtown Church on a
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    Sunday morning to hear Janie Spahr
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    and we've
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    never left.
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    It felt very much like home
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    at the time we were here
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    and we,
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    I think we both knew just
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    within minutes of walking in
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    and hearing Janie preach that this
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    is this is where we belonged.
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    And at that time
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    that was just after
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    Janie's call to
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    the Downtown Church and
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    I think the case had gone all the
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    way through the, the PJC
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    judicial commission and
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    That All May Freely Serve had
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    actually maybe started.
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    Just been.
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    Had been formed.
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    Was forming at that time.
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    Were you guys on the
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    board early on?
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    I can't remember. I think you
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    weren't on there when I came and I
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    wasn't on the board in the first few
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    years.
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    Those first two to three years
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    we weren't.
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    First two to three years.
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    Active on the board.
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    You weren't either. Just supportive.
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    It was, right we became supporters.
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    There was you know how
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    many times there was all these
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    meetings the TAMFS meetings.
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    Right.
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    When Janie was in town at
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    a house meeting and Janie would ask
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    "Well how would you like to become
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    involved at these meetings?".
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    Oh yes.
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    So it was an evolutionary process.
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    It was at Rose Mitchell's house.
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    Oh was it? Yeah. The way I got
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    involved with the board was that
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    Janie asked me to be
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    a facilitator for a weekend.
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    Oh that's right.
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    Yeah.
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    Yeah. I almost think that I was on
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    the board at that time because I remember that. At the retreat center,
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    the Mercy Retreat Center.
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    You were on the board at that time. Do you remember that?
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    And
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    I did that.
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    And then after that I was invited.
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    You got sucked in.
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    I got sucked in. Which of us was a co-moderator first?
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    I think I was first. Because I was co-moderator with
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    Virginia.
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    You replaced Chuck, with Virginia.
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    And I replaced Chuck, Chuck Lundeen. Right.
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    And then I was seen as the
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    Virginia replacement.
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    You were the Virginia successor.
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    But of course nobody can replace Virginia.
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    No one can replace Virginia.
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    Yeah
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    yeah. And we were co-moderators for
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    years.
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    A long time, yeah.
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    For a long time, I for even longer than you.
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    Yes. Yeah.
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    And then I left and Jim Vesper
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    took my position. Yeah.
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    Jim Vesper came after, yeah. I was trying to remember
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    how many of the general assemblies I
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    went to. You went to a couple.
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    A couple.
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    Yeah was in Louisville.
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    You went to some of the earlier ones
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    than I did.
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    Where it was pretty
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    difficult right?
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    It it was, yeah.
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    Kind of painful?
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    It was painful.
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    I think you were at several. I know I was at
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    the Louisville one and
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    then Richmond?
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    Richmond.
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    We went to Richmond
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    because I mean that really
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    jumps way ahead because
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    that was the
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    year we got married in Canada
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    which was
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    15 years ago now.
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    So that's when, I mean they were
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    talking a lot about that year in
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    Richmond about marriage
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    and the church.
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    So that's what I mean.
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    There's all of these elapsed times.
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    Yes.
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    Yeah.
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    GA was always an interesting
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    experience though.
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    I mean there was certainly a lot of
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    camaraderie between
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    all the observers that went from
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    More Light
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    and and
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    That All May Freely Serve, the various chapters
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    around, and so forth but
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    you know just some awful awful
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    things happening to us.
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    Lost votes.
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    Lost vote after lost vote.
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    After lost vote, after lost vote.
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    It just seemed like we couldn't get
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    a break anywhere.
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    And a lot of hateful stuff to listen
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    to.
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    Oh awful stuff.
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    In
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    the committees and then and in the
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    in the General Assembly
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    as well.
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    Yeah.
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    And when I started going it
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    wasn't quite.
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    I
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    sort of was there as it transitioned
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    from
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    its very worst to
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    the beginning of feeling that
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    something might really happen.
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    Might actually happen, yeah.
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    And then.
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    And then of course Lisa's
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    wonderful just incredible
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    brilliance in
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    focusing on
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    the church we all wanted
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    it to become, the welcoming church
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    and the new church
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    revolution and that
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    whole hospitality
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    effort of bringing in young
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    people and showing that the future
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    of the church
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    is to be a welcoming church
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    and standing out
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    with coffee and cookies as
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    all the assembly members came
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    in. I will never
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    forget how powerful
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    that was.
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    But it couldn't have been done a lot
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    earlier.
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    It wouldn't have had the same
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    effect.
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    It was at the right time.
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    It was at the time when things were
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    starting to shift
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    and it helped the shift.
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    Mary can you talk a little bit more
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    about that New Church Revolution
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    idea?
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    Yeah. And we've, I'll show you
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    later in our archives we've got the,
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    she got a
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    grant
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    and that funded
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    I think about 20, I've forgotten the
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    exact number of young people,
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    to be at General Assembly.
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    They were the core
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    in doing this and I think it
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    happened
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    at least two general assemblies.
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    I know it happened more than once.
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    It might have been might have been
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    more but it was at least two
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    and
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    and at the same time there were
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    still More
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    Light was still doing some advocacy
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    that was more confrontational.
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    You know they were both happening at
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    the same general assemblies.
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    It wasn't a total
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    transition to a different
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    way of a different
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    paradigm so to speak.
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    Yeah more than anything it just
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    there they were.
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    You know these young people
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    being welcoming and it's like and
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    Janie
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    always talked
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    about personing the issue
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    from the very beginning
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    and that she always
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    understood that telling stories
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    is what changes
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    people.
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    And this was
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    like taking that another step
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    further and saying
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    it's not just telling stories it's
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    showing what can be.
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    That's what these young people were
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    doing and it was like
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    this is the future.
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    If you choose to accept
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    it this is the future that
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    we can have in our denomination.
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    And that was not the year that
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    it changed.
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    That was the preparation
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    for the vote finally
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    happening and Amendment B being
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    removed.
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    You were, you were there though?
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    No, no, that was after my time.
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    That was after you were a co-moderator, yeah.
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    Yeah.
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    So can you talk about some of the work that you did as co-moderators?
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    A lot happened in those days, didn't it?
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    It did.
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    I think, I mean just going back to
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    to sort of personing the issue that
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    I think was was a core concept
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    of at the inception
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    of That All May Freely Serve.
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    Janie obviously was
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    was a wonderful storyteller
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    and taught
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    us all that
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    you know the way the way to change
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    hearts and minds is to tell your
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    story and to
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    be real with people.
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    And that's what we sent her out to
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    do.
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    You know we.
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    We were told that we couldn't have
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    her as our pastor.
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    And so we said well
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    maybe then we need to educate
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    the church on this issue
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    and
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    we seem to have picked the right
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    person to start the whole ball
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    rolling to do that.
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    Yeah. My gosh.
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    My gosh. And
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    Greg you were doing the newsletters all these years.
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    So I was the.
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    Well Doug was a co-moderator and
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    Mary was became
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    a co-moderator and one of the
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    people who worked on the annual
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    meeting.
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    I would be working we
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    did four times a year newsletter.
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    It was very
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    interesting because we transitioned
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    from the early days when it was
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    just one eight
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    and a half by eleven. It all fit there to every
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    newsletter was different.
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    The largest one was
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    always after the.
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    After the General Assembly, huh?
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    After the general assemblies because
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    there again telling the story
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    it was important also to tell the
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    story to the people who weren't able
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    to be there.
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    So we told it through both photos
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    and words. So that's why
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    the newsletter was large after
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    General Assembly.
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    But my task doing that
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    is it
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    became the whole
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    thing.
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    I learned I had
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    technical computer skills so
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    that's kind of why I got tapped.
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    But I had to also learn how
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    to become an editor.
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    How you do a layout. So part of
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    the skill, you
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    take one skill and then you build on
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    it.
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    I built on it.
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    But anyway, I really don't remember
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    how many years
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    I did that throughout the process.
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    Quite a few
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    I think.
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    But
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    that's so I would
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    say from my perspective
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    I wasn't the front facing
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    person telling a lot of the
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    stories.
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    Very rarely.
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    I was more
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    the making
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    sure this newsletter got out four
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    times a year and the logistics
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    person.
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    I don't remember how many people
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    we had in our database but it
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    was a lot. The newsletter
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    went to a lot of people all around
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    the country.
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    It was, there was
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    I remember
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    over a thousand or so we
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    constantly had that was one of the
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    tasks.
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    Is that the number of, about?
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    In
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    order because of postage you always
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    had to watch that.
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    You always tried to work to make
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    sure that you only send
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    it to one person
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    one time and that
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    sort of stuff.
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    But it was in the thousands.
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    It was a lot
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    of work.
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    It was a it was a really important
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    part because part of this was
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    it was always about supporting
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    people and staying
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    connected which is a huge
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    challenge for any organization
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    but especially when you're national.
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    So like you said staying connected
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    nationally and
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    then one way along the way you know
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    someone prompted us, so what is the
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    goal of the newsletter besides this
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    connectedness?
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    So we became much better at making
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    sure we always made an ask
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    as well.
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    Oh yeah.
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    This is probably speaking of that is
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    a good time so what kind of happened in the beginning and I think it's
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    really important in terms of the Downtown Church's role in all of this.
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    So we
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    called Janie and then we were not
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    allowed to
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    have her.
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    And so when That All May Freely
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    Serve was created
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    and
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    the church donated
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    the amount that would have been her
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    salary which was around 30,000
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    to That All May Freely
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    Serve and
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    literally because the amount
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    was because that
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    is what at that time would
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    have been her salary.
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    And the
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    church continued to support
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    that That All May Freely Serve
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    financially
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    in about that range for
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    a many many years until at a
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    point came where
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    other financial realities
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    were intervening
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    in terms of the church and we had
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    to reduce
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    the amount
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    that was done.
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    But that made a huge
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    difference. So the rest of that came
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    from donors.
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    The rest of what funded
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    because we're talking about Janie's
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    salary.
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    Later we hired an
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    administrative person
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    and then
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    we hired Lisa Larges
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    as regional coordinator
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    to be the primary person working
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    with the various
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    regions and the
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    representatives of those.
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    So you know it took, it
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    was a lot of travel.
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    If you think about, you know
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    it wasn't a cheap thing to.
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    No it wasn't a cheap thing.
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    To
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    launch That All May Freely Serve
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    and keep it going so the
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    that
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    donor base was
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    so important to being able
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    to do that.
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    Can you talk a little bit about I guess kind of where That All May Freely
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    Serve kind of fit into other advocacy groups?
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    Sure, you want to do that?
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    Sure, at one point we began
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    to work with two
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    other organizations and they, I
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    don't know where the term came,
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    but
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    we the groups called each
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    other The Three Sisters.
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    So there was More Light
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    Presbyterians and.
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    Covenant Network.
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    Covenant Network were
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    our two
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    major partners. And then.
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    They were the three sisters.
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    Yeah, they were the three sisters.
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    The Shower of Stoles project
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    certainly was
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    a big coordinator.
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    All three of us related to them.
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    They didn't really.
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    That was more supplying
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    the stoles for important events.
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    Important events, yeah.
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    And we all
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    did that because it was again
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    a way the Shower personing the issue.
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    Personing and telling the story.
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    Yeah, absolutely.
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    The stoles were
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    always very impressive
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    to you know walk around and
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    each of them had a
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    story of
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    the person.
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    Did you guys have stoles?
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    We did.
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    I thought so.
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    So
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    you know that that always
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    made made
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    a wonderful backdrop for for our group
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    gatherings and it sort of felt like
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    you know a hug from
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    the cloud of witnesses.
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    And I think all three
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    organizations used those
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    often, yeah.
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    Used those.
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    Yeah.
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    And we
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    had joint dinners at
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    General Assembly.
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    We attended each other's dinners.
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    Attended each other's dinner.
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    Sometimes they were joint and sometimes, yeah.
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    Rights, sometimes they were individual.
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    Sometimes they were individual.
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    But
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    if you so
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    we
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    kind of at least I kind of thought of
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    us as being in the middle maybe
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    among the three. You too? Is that what you would say?
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    Oh yeah.
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    That you know Covenant Network was.
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    Definitely
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    more towards the center.
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    More towards the center and more, you know
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    sometimes it was difficult
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    because it
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    was very clear to both That
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    All May Freely Serve and More Light
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    that
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    every General Assembly we
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    needed to bring
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    at least one overture
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    regardless of what happened to
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    it that we needed to keep
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    the issue out there
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    and that our denomination
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    needed to wrestle with it every
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    General Assembly
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    and what often happened
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    was or some of the
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    times happened was that
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    Covenant Network
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    sometimes didn't support those.
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    Just ignore it.
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    Covenant Network sometimes didn't
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    support those overtures
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    because probably what
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    they would say was it wasn't time
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    yet or the church wasn't ready
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    or something
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    which wasn't easy for us
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    to hear.
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    So that's why we
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    say they were it was more
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    center and it you know
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    had a lot of clergy people so that
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    you know I think that was part of
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    that as well.
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    I would say that More Light was
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    more radical than we were
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    probably only in the
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    not in terms of what we believed
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    but
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    sometimes I think that we were
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    more relational
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    and or tried to be more relational
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    in how we approached things.
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    Does that make sense?
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    I think that does make sense to me.
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    So these are our
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    biases.
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    Someone else may say something
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    totally different but
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    you know I think
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    More Light was
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    even more ready to
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    confront, push whatever
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    than we always were.
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    Yeah.
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    Yeah but we saw
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    ourselves as really doing the work
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    of being out there personing the
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    issue, talking
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    to people, and
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    trying to change hearts and minds.
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    And yeah you know so.
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    So when when something would
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    come up that you know we
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    thought was too much in someone's
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    face you know we
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    really had a hard time harder time
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    supporting.
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    One of the things that always amazed
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    me about Janie and
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    even more so then cause I think it
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    was more difficult then, was that she
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    was always ready to
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    sit down with anyone
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    and in fact was it Ron?
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    Rolf
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    Paul Jensen.
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    Yes it was him.
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    So he's the guy who
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    brought a bunch of the
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    what are they called?
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    Complaints.
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    The complaints. Anyway she pursued
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    him at General Assembly
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    and said you know I want
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    to pray with you.
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    I want to sit down with you.
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    Yeah yeah yeah.
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    And she did.
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    And she did.
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    And and she did.
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    I mean.
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    That's the.
  • speaker
    So when I say relational that's
  • speaker
    what I mean.
  • speaker
    It's more than you know it's not
  • speaker
    just a
  • speaker
    loose word.
  • speaker
    It's it's a real word.
  • speaker
    Janie.
  • speaker
    Connected with the whole spectrum.
  • speaker
    She worked at making those
  • speaker
    things happen and making those
  • speaker
    connections which I couldn't
  • speaker
    have done.
  • speaker
    No absolutely not. But
  • speaker
    you know that that was her gift is
  • speaker
    that she could
  • speaker
    talk and be in
  • speaker
    relationship really with anyone.
  • speaker
    I mean just
  • speaker
    phenomenal. I think.
  • speaker
    Even when hatred was coming towards
  • speaker
    her.
  • speaker
    Yeah yeah.
  • speaker
    And she'd say things like you know
  • speaker
    I'm sorry you feel that way.
  • speaker
    But then she'd go on.
  • speaker
    She'd go on, yeah.
  • speaker
    Whereas I'd be ah!
  • speaker
    You're the Antichrist, yeah. Well I'm sorry you feel that way.
  • speaker
    So. So just going back
  • speaker
    to the previous
  • speaker
    question about what we
  • speaker
    did as moderators I think
  • speaker
    maybe Mary and I or certainly I
  • speaker
    always saw our role as trying
  • speaker
    to keep a lid on Janie Spahr.
  • speaker
    I mean that was how we moderated.
  • speaker
    Yeah sometimes it was.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    That is true.
  • speaker
    In many ways including financially
  • speaker
    because it's like you know she
  • speaker
    believed that God
  • speaker
    will provide and there's abundance
  • speaker
    and it's like yeah but yeah
  • speaker
    but.
  • speaker
    Yeah but.
  • speaker
    But we don't have the money to, we don't have it today to do that.
  • speaker
    We don't have it today.
  • speaker
    And somehow she almost always did
  • speaker
    come through with it and I don't
  • speaker
    know how she did it.
  • speaker
    But somebody came through.
  • speaker
    Somehow the word got out.
  • speaker
    Word got out that Janie got the money.
  • speaker
    Yes exactly.
  • speaker
    That is what happened.
  • speaker
    I was going to circle back you said
  • speaker
    that each of you had stoles in the Shower of Stoles Project?
  • speaker
    We had stoles
  • speaker
    made and actually we
  • speaker
    still have them in our
  • speaker
    possession.
  • speaker
    We wrote our stories and never ended
  • speaker
    up getting there.
  • speaker
    We wrote our stories and somehow it never made it to the Shower of Stoles
  • speaker
    Project.
  • speaker
    Oh they never made it to the
  • speaker
    collection? It's not that you got them back.
  • speaker
    Yeah. No no no.
  • speaker
    You still have them. Well that's kind of nice too.
  • speaker
    We still have them. So that's a little embarrassing
  • speaker
    really, but we intended to send them to Shower of Stoles.
  • speaker
    Maybe you didn't want to part with
  • speaker
    them.
  • speaker
    Did
  • speaker
    you guys go to the
  • speaker
    conferences? We had
  • speaker
    a lot of conferences.
  • speaker
    We had a lot of conferences, sure we did.
  • speaker
    Rochester? Did you go to the one in Georgia? There was one in Georgia.
  • speaker
    There was one in Stony Point.
  • speaker
    In Georgia, yeah.
  • speaker
    You didn't go? Did you miss them?
  • speaker
    I think went to every single TAMFS conference. The
  • speaker
    only one that I
  • speaker
    mean I didn't many
  • speaker
    TAMFS as
  • speaker
    co-moderators or went
  • speaker
    to the Covenant Network or
  • speaker
    More Light meetings.
  • speaker
    And I didn't go to all of
  • speaker
    those meetings but it was either
  • speaker
    like you as co-moderators went
  • speaker
    to one or the other.
  • speaker
    We did. We always tried to support
  • speaker
    their conferences as well as ours.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Yeah but those that
  • speaker
    was another way that
  • speaker
    we stayed in touch with people around the country because that
  • speaker
    you know that's
  • speaker
    a huge challenge.
  • speaker
    Those are the three I remember.
  • speaker
    Do you remember any others?
  • speaker
    And maybe we did more than one in
  • speaker
    Rochester.
  • speaker
    I think there were two here.
  • speaker
    There was one early on that
  • speaker
    I don't think we participated in.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    There
  • speaker
    was an attempt to bring all
  • speaker
    the regions together.
  • speaker
    Were they well attended?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah as a matter of fact.
  • speaker
    Georgia was packed.
  • speaker
    Stony Brook was.
  • speaker
    Stony Brook was fabulous.
  • speaker
    The conferences
  • speaker
    were great from
  • speaker
    the aspect of all of the educational
  • speaker
    opportunities but it was behind
  • speaker
    the scenes operations.
  • speaker
    So that's why I said Stony
  • speaker
    Brook was packed because the
  • speaker
    operations there even though they
  • speaker
    were complex there
  • speaker
    was a physical plant there to
  • speaker
    support you. A cafeteria, a dorm
  • speaker
    room versus the other
  • speaker
    places. The wonderful aspect though
  • speaker
    was the housing usually occurred
  • speaker
    with people in
  • speaker
    the region.
  • speaker
    Yes and we
  • speaker
    stayed with people. That was neat.
  • speaker
    And then
  • speaker
    we would do usually catered things would be brought to the churches
  • speaker
    because they were so big that it was
  • speaker
    too hard to have.
  • speaker
    But so think
  • speaker
    of it if you started on Friday night
  • speaker
    that's a Friday night dinner.
  • speaker
    Three things on Saturday and then a
  • speaker
    Sunday morning.
  • speaker
    And so just logistically
  • speaker
    that was.
  • speaker
    A lot.
  • speaker
    It was huge.
  • speaker
    So the aspect was fun from the
  • speaker
    aspect of worships and things.
  • speaker
    I mean Stony Brook there
  • speaker
    again when you spoke of youth.
  • speaker
    Stony Point.
  • speaker
    Stony Point had a huge youth contingent
  • speaker
    and they did almost all the
  • speaker
    worships.
  • speaker
    So the youth contingent
  • speaker
    were
  • speaker
    young people who were in seminary.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Right. That was the other that connection.
  • speaker
    And that became Ivy Marlowe
  • speaker
    and Mieke Vandersall
  • speaker
    in particular led that
  • speaker
    group for several years and
  • speaker
    they had their own events
  • speaker
    too so
  • speaker
    that they could be really supported
  • speaker
    in maybe
  • speaker
    moving towards hopefully
  • speaker
    moving towards a day when they could
  • speaker
    be ordained in the Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church but they
  • speaker
    those who are some of the most
  • speaker
    powerful worship services.
  • speaker
    Oh my goodness yeah.
  • speaker
    Because some of the most fabulous sermons I thought. Just incredible.
  • speaker
    Absolutely.
  • speaker
    Oh and the other thing like for me
  • speaker
    because I'm straight, the workshops
  • speaker
    were I mean I
  • speaker
    was when I first started this the
  • speaker
    term bisexual was
  • speaker
    you know I mean like I sort of got
  • speaker
    it as
  • speaker
    oh oh I didn't know
  • speaker
    that you know that
  • speaker
    existed or could happen
  • speaker
    but it was really how
  • speaker
    you know there would be workshops
  • speaker
    where somebody who was bisexual
  • speaker
    or is bisexual
  • speaker
    would speak of their own
  • speaker
    experience. There were
  • speaker
    people who were trans who talked
  • speaker
    about their experiences.
  • speaker
    I mean I learned a
  • speaker
    lot from the workshops
  • speaker
    that were part of those conferences
  • speaker
    too.
  • speaker
    That really helped me.
  • speaker
    And again a lot of it was about
  • speaker
    telling stories but
  • speaker
    there was information too I mean
  • speaker
    factual information helped me
  • speaker
    become better
  • speaker
    become a better ally.
  • speaker
    Do you remember anything else about the workshops? I can't remember.
  • speaker
    Those for me that's what was most helpful.
  • speaker
    The concept of broadening, but then also like the concept of.

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