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Third Presbyterian Church More Light Committee oral history, 2019.
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- speakerSo if you just want to go ahead and
- speakerstart with how you became involved
- speakerwith the More Light movement.
- speakerWell, my name is Ralph Carter, and
- speakerI'm a Florida native,
- speakerbut always Presbyterian.
- speakerSo I went to school in Atlanta,
- speakerGeorgia Tech, and I came
- speakerout in the
- speakermid 1970s.
- speakerSo this was maybe six,
- speakerseven years after
- speakerStonewall.
- speakerI remember hearing about it, you
- speakerknow, in
- speakerearly high school, I think it was.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI came out
- speakerin college, but in the day
- speakerI was in the day and Sunday morning
- speakerI went to Druid Hills Presbyterian
- speakerChurch on Ponce de Leon Avenue
- speakerin Atlanta.
- speakerAnd then I went to Sunday night.
- speakerI would go to to a Metropolitan
- speakerCommunity Church, which was the
- speakerLGBT congregation.
- speakerSo
- speakerI was afraid to come out.
- speakerSo I lived I lived a dualistic
- speakerlife. So so when I when I
- speakerand so then I moved to Rochester
- speakerin 1979, summer of
- speaker79, started to work
- speakerat Xerox.
- speakerAnd I joined Third Church
- speakerthat fall
- speakersimultaneously with all.
- speakerAnd part of my big quest was
- speakercan I integrate my life?
- speakerCan I live fully
- speakerand have the kind of childhood
- speakerexperience I had as a child in the
- speakerPresbyterian Church where
- speakerit's okay to ask questions?
- speakerI mean, we had sexuality education
- speakerin our little church in
- speakerChipley, Florida, which is rather
- speakerunusual and really progressive, I
- speakerthink, for the day, for
- speakerthe sixties and seventies.
- speakerSo it was a very interesting
- speakercongregation. So I was almost.
- speakerAnd my faith was very important to
- speakerme. So I wanted to I was hoping to
- speakerbe able to explore all
- speakerof that and
- speakerand the church
- speakerproviding sanctuary.
- speakerSo that was my quest.
- speakerI so I joined
- speakerthird church primarily
- speakerbecause of the education the music,
- speakerwhich is very important to me and
- speakeralso the preaching and
- speakerthe, the,
- speakerthe, the just the atmosphere of
- speakerthe congregation.
- speakerI saw in the summer of
- speaker79
- speakeran Empty Closet newspaper
- speakerPresbyterian an advertisement for
- speakera monthly potluck
- speakerthat was happening
- speakerorganized by Presbyterian, then
- speakerPresbyterians for Gay Concerns.
- speakerAnd so I went to the potluck
- speakerand there were great folks
- speakerand one of the people who came
- speakerperiodically was Virginia Davidson,
- speakerbut then some other presbytery
- speakerstaff,
- speakerassociate members
- speakerof the staff would
- speakerpop in every once in a while,
- speakerbut I remember really being touched
- speakerby the
- speakersome of the women in the group who
- speakerwere not gay
- speakeror lesbian, but really
- speakersaw the justice
- speakerissues and concerns of
- speakerhow people were being treated
- speakerand also that people should be able
- speakerto live their lives without
- speakerfear of societal
- speakerretribution
- speakerand so forth. So
- speakerprior to my coming to coming to
- speakerRochester, I think it was in
- speakerit was so 1970, some of the folks
- speakerinvolved were also commissioners to
- speakerthe 1978 General Assembly
- speakerin San Diego such
- speakerthat
- speakerthey were
- speakerwhat happened at that General
- speakerAssembly was a complete
- speaker180 from
- speakerwhat was being recommended for the
- speakerAssembly, as and I'm sure other
- speakerpeople have already described.
- speakerBut
- speakerVirginia Davidson,
- speakerwho chaired the National Task
- speakerForce on the church's
- speakerconcern with homosexuality led
- speakerhearing sessions all across the
- speakercountry
- speakerand
- speakerhad testimony from
- speakerpeople who basically
- speakercame out
- speakerwith the very real possibility
- speakerthat they would lose their jobs.
- speakerAnd they came out.
- speakerAnd some of the testimony, I think,
- speakerwas in private, but some a lot of it
- speakerwas in public.
- speakerSo there was the
- speakerwhat was recommended for the
- speakerAssembly ended
- speakerup as part of
- speakerthe present, the presentation to the
- speakerassembly, the committee that
- speakerwas hearing it,
- speakerthat became the
- speakerthere was a majority report and
- speakerthere was a minority report
- speakercoming in from the committee.
- speakerAnd then it completely
- speakerwent topsy turvy.
- speakerSo for those
- speakerwho were concerned about the justice
- speakerissues, there
- speakerwas very. It was only in
- speakerthe in the
- speakeraddendum to the report,
- speakeranything positive.
- speakerSo there were people so that
- speakerthat gathering was really concerned
- speakerabout what do we do?
- speakerAnd we were despairing.
- speakerJim Rice, who was a member of this
- speakermember of the presbytery and
- speakerwas associate
- speakerleader for
- speakercivil rights advocacy
- speakerand justice issues
- speakerwho worshiped with this congregation
- speakerand his wife Lucile,
- speakerwho was a member,
- speakercame to us, came to us and said,
- speakerwell, you know, the presbytery the
- speakerdenomination is doing major funding
- speakerfor funding, effort,
- speakermission challenge, and
- speakera third of the funds are going to
- speakerstay local.
- speakerAnd so there was a
- speakerso if there's anything that you
- speakerwould like to do as a group
- speakerto invite the presbytery to be
- speakerinvolved in education or
- speakeradvocacy, you know, around
- speakerlesbian and gay
- speakerjustice issues, then
- speakerwhat about a proposal?
- speakerSo he encouraged us to do that.
- speakerAnd there was one element.
- speakerAnd we took the 78 report
- speakerand there was one element that
- speakercalled for
- speakercalled the church to
- speakercontinue its tradition
- speakerof advocating for
- speakercivil rights.
- speakerSo that's what we did.
- speakerSo that that will lead to a to
- speakera project we'll describe in a
- speakermoment. But simultaneously
- speakerwith all of that conversation is
- speakerwhat do we do? What did we do?
- speakerBefore I joined the group,
- speakerthere was a
- speakerconversation about
- speakerwell there were congregations who
- speakerwere actually
- speakersaying formally, we disagree
- speakerwith the action
- speakerof the 1978 General Assembly
- speakerand we call ourselves More Light
- speakerborrowing from
- speakerthe.
- speakerOh, gosh, John,
- speakerit was it was a pilgrim, the
- speakerpilgrims coming to the new world.
- speakerSo there's
- speakerthere is yet more light to break
- speakerforth from the word, basically is
- speakerwhat the statement
- speakeris.
- speakerSo there were congregations.
- speakerAnd so
- speakervery early on one of that, one of
- speakerthe first ones was at the Downtown
- speakerUnited Presbyterian Church.
- speakerBut there were all the was also very
- speakerquickly
- speakerJohn Calvin Presbyterian Church
- speakerand then Calvary St. Andrews,
- speakerand then there was Westminster
- speakerand then of course, later, much
- speakerlater on, Third Church.
- speakerBut there's there's other congregations
- speakerthese aside from the Downtown
- speakerChurch, the other congregations
- speakerwere and were part of a group of ten
- speakercongregations who were invited,
- speakeras I recall.
- speakerThis needs to be validated through
- speakersome other folks, because
- speakerI wasn't there to be a part
- speakerof that effort.
- speakerWere invited.
- speakerTen congregations were visited,
- speakertheir sessions were visited,
- speakerand they were invited to consider
- speakerjoining Downtown Church and becoming
- speakera More Light Church.
- speakerAnd I think that happened in
- speaker1970, early in the
- speakerspring of 79, which is
- speakeractually since we're 2019, it's
- speakeractually 40 years.
- speakerSo. Right. So
- speakerthat that was
- speakerbefore I just before I,
- speakerI showed up, but that was when
- speakerpart of that effort included
- speakerThird Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd were you Betty
- speakeron that session
- speakerat that time?
- speakerWhen they when the I think it was
- speakerKeith Hershberger and
- speakerLee Fisher perhaps
- speakerthat came to the to
- speakermeet with their church session.
- speakerYeah I was but I
- speakerreally came into the picture in
- speaker80 mostly and 81
- speakerwhen the task force got
- speakerformed.
- speakerSo
- speakerI joined third
- speakerchurch in 76 and
- speakerI joined I it was I was
- speakerEpiscopalian, but I looked at
- speakera lot of churches when we moved to
- speakerRochester, Episcopalian,
- speakerPresbyterian, Congregational.
- speakerAnd I found their church and really
- speakerseemed like a
- speakerwonderful
- speakerchurch.
- speakerThey had men who could work
- speakerin the kitchen, you know, for
- speakerthe meals.
- speakerAnd I just so impressed because I
- speakercame from a
- speakerEpiscopal church where the
- speakermen just did the ushering
- speakerand service and the women just did
- speakerthe altar guild.
- speakerAnd so I really was very
- speakerconscious about women's roles
- speakerin in the church.
- speakerAnd so that's why I joined Third
- speakerChurch.
- speakerBut a couple of years later, Carol
- speakerKawalec, who was very instrumental
- speakerin this whole movement,
- speakersaid to me, You know, Betty, the
- speakerPresbyterian Church has something
- speakercalled the definitive guidance.
- speakerAnd, you know,
- speakergay people are not allowed to be
- speakerordained in the church.
- speakerAnd I said, well, I don't think
- speakerthat's possible.
- speakerThe Presbyterian Church is you can
- speakerdo you know, it's totally
- speakeropen and free. And I don't think I
- speakerknew anybody at that point
- speakerwho was gay, but I just said
- speakerthat's that's impossible.
- speakerWell, she found me the
- speakerstatements from General Assembly,
- speakerand that
- speakercame across with a definitive guide.
- speakerAnd I said, Well, I've got to either
- speakerstay with the church and work to
- speakerchange it, maybe, you know,
- speakeroptimistic or go find another
- speakerdenomination.
- speakerAnd it was about that time that
- speakerthen Pat Youngdahl,
- speakerwho was an.
- speakerAssistant.
- speakerAssistant pastor here at the time,
- speakerwas given the task by
- speakerthe session to form
- speakera task force
- speakerto come up with a More Light
- speakerstatement if we wanted to.
- speakerSo that's where Ralph said
- speakerthat, you know, these churches
- speakercould be do we want to join in
- speakerto become a More Light church?
- speakerWell, to become a more like church,
- speakerour church really felt that we
- speakerneeded to study and
- speakereducate ourselves and educate
- speakerour congregation and study
- speakersome more and educate our
- speakercongregation.
- speakerSo we started that in
- speakerearly
- speakerwell, late, late seventies.
- speakerIt was and
- speakerit wasn't until 87 that we actually
- speakercame up with a More Light statement.
- speakerBut I said I would join that
- speakercommittee. And that
- speakerwas when I then met Ralph
- speakerand Stu Zellmer and Carol Kawalec
- speakerand a few other people
- speakerand where we started working
- speakeron this More Light statement
- speakerand during part of that education
- speakerprocess, we had Chris
- speakerGlaser came
- speakerand gave us a gave a talk
- speakerand potluck
- speakerdinner. This whole room was jammed,
- speakerpacked. People, wanted were hungry
- speakerto hear about what was
- speakergoing on in the church
- speakerhaving to do with gay and lesbians
- speakerand ordination.
- speakerAnd I remember Chris Glaser saying
- speakerat that time, I
- speakerdon't even know if it's going to be
- speakerin my lifetime that the church is
- speakergoing to change. It's going to be at
- speakerleast 30 years.
- speakerAnd I thought to myself, boy, that
- speakerthat's a lifetime, 30 years.
- speakerI was a little older
- speakerthan 30 at that point, but
- speakernot much.
- speakerAnd so that was a little
- speakerdiscouraging for me to hear
- speakerthat.
- speakerBut our
- speakercommittee worked on and on.
- speakerAnd so maybe this is where you come
- speakerback in, Ralph and then Ann came
- speakerin, well, maybe you want to
- speakerintroduce yourself and then we can
- speakerall merge together when we
- speakeractually brought the more statement
- speakerto.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerTo session to pass,
- speakerand that's where Ann was
- speakerplayed a really important role,
- speakerright?
- speakerSo I'm Ann McMican and I'm the
- speakernewest to the table.
- speakerI came to Third Church in 1981,
- speakereven though I was born into
- speakerthe Presbyterian Church, PK, a
- speakerdaughter of a Presbyterian pastor
- speakerwho was very instrumental
- speakerin my lifetime with civil
- speakerrights in Michigan
- speakerduring the Civil Rights Movement.
- speakerAnd my house was the original
- speakerplace, I think, where
- speakera priest, a rabbi and a pastor
- speakergot together and talked.
- speakerAnd they came to my house when I was
- speakera kid and my dad worked on civil
- speakerrights things.
- speakerI came from a place where dad said
- speakerhe didn't like labels, and even
- speakerthough he would today
- speakerbe considered a flaming liberal at
- speakerthe time, he would not have liked
- speakerto be have that label
- speakerhe felt he was following
- speakerand his heart's
- speakerunderstanding of what Jesus wants us
- speakerto do.
- speakerAnd so I came
- speakerin late to the table then, and
- speakeralthough I was a young person when I
- speakercame to their church, I
- speakerwas elected as an
- speakerelder in about 1986.
- speakerI joined in 81.
- speakerI was busy with refugee
- speakerresettlement.
- speakerI was in the choir.
- speakerI was doing a lot of different
- speakerthings here
- speakerand elected as an
- speakerelder and ordained in about
- speaker86.
- speakerSo I was there on session.
- speakerI was probably the one of us who
- speakerwas on session at the time.
- speakerThe task force brought the
- speakerstatement to session.
- speakerAnd even at that time, our
- speakercongregation, having gone through
- speakera lot of education and a lot
- speakerof soul searching, there was not
- speakerunanimity of the
- speakersession members.
- speakerWe had a large session.
- speakerWe may still we had 24
- speakersession members, three
- speakerclasses of eight.
- speakerI remember vividly.
- speakerAnd when
- speakerthe statement came,
- speakerit was clear that there were some
- speakermembers of session who were not
- speakergoing to be able to vote for it
- speakeras it was written.
- speakerAnd I was very sorry
- speakeron the one hand, but that was a time
- speakerwhen the Spirit moved in my life
- speakerand I raised my hand in
- speakersession and said that I
- speakerwould be willing to take the
- speakerstatement that they worked two years
- speakeron and
- speakersee what I could do with
- speakerthe small group to
- speakeradjust it very modestly
- speakerto help it be acceptable
- speakerso that we could pass the statement.
- speakerWe didn't even the first time
- speakeraround, we didn't even vote
- speakerbecause it was clear it
- speakerwas not going to pass.
- speakerAnd so we went
- speakeraway and I think it maybe took
- speakera month or two.
- speakerIt was I, I remember
- speakerit being pretty quick.
- speakerYeah it was. It was pretty quick.
- speakerRelatively speaking.
- speakerAnd I had some quick
- speakerideas. I don't know if you guys
- speakerremember that,
- speakerbut I remember vividly the words
- speakerthat were difficult for people and
- speakerwe could adjust them to the current
- speakerstatement. And we brought it back
- speakerrather quickly.
- speakerAnd it was clear
- speakerthat the revised statement,
- speakereven though it was gently revised
- speakerin my mind, was acceptable
- speakerto everybody, to all but one
- speakersession member.
- speakerAnd we voted in that
- speakerperson, abstained, and then
- speakerrescinded membership in our church
- speakerbecause it was something that that
- speakerparticular person was not able
- speakerto believe was the right
- speakerway to go, did not feel that
- speakerthat was what Jesus was calling
- speakerus to do.
- speakerSo I believe then it was
- speakerprobably then adopted unanimously
- speakerand we were
- speakerreally thrilled to become a More
- speakerLight church.
- speakerIt was where we needed to be.
- speakerAnd everyone, I think everyone
- speakerin session
- speakerwas very, very happy about the
- speakerpossibility, the
- speakerthe chance that we were able to take
- speakerto do that.
- speakerHow did you guys feel about that?
- speakerI'm sure you were disappointed.
- speakerI was at that meeting Ann
- speakerwhen you spoke
- speakerup and my heart just sank,
- speakerI thought we had worked two years,
- speakermaybe three years, and
- speakerand we just thought we really had it
- speakerperfect.
- speakerAnd yet here this session, there
- speakerwasn't consensus and.
- speakerAnd more than one,
- speakerI mean, many more than one.
- speakerAnd I just I thought,
- speakeryou know, we're never going to get
- speakerthrough through this and.
- speakerAnd never going to let go of it.
- speakerAnd I,
- speakeryou know, one side I was
- speakergrateful for Ann to say, let me see
- speakerwhat I can do. And the other was
- speakerthinking, what can Ann do that we
- speakercouldn't do?
- speakerYeah, well part of the so there was
- speakerthis whole dynamic,
- speakerI think it was
- speakeractually brilliant on the part of
- speakerthe congregation
- speakerleadership in
- speaker1980.
- speakerI'll come back to this very first
- speakerpart. I think we needed to answer
- speakeryour question.
- speakerYou know, there was there was the
- speakerordained leadership was the elected
- speakerleadership, and then there were
- speakerthose who were impacted
- speakerby the decision.
- speakerSo early on,
- speakerworking with Pat Youngdahl.
- speakerAnd
- speakerwe, you know, we first we first had
- speakerto study at a study group
- speakerbecause of
- speakerthe way that happened.
- speakerThat's kind of oh, I think is kind
- speakerof interesting because it was.
- speakerI think Carol Kawalec was on session
- speakerat the time.
- speakerAnd so there had been the
- speakerpresentation by some
- speakermembers of Presbyterians for Gay
- speakerConcerns to all
- speakerthe congregations that the top ten,
- speakerif you will, most likely
- speakerto succeed
- speakerand a Third being one of them.
- speakerAnd so the commitment session made
- speakerit that after that presentation
- speakerwas to itself,
- speakermade commitment to itself, that it
- speakerwould study that it would
- speakerit would it would make a decision on
- speakerstudying within a year that it would
- speakerstudy the issue.
- speakerSo the year was passing by.
- speakerAnd my understanding from
- speakerCarol Kawalec
- speakeractually said
- speakeror did you say were you in session
- speakerat that point?
- speakerThis was like 1980.
- speakerYeah, I think I was.
- speakerWell, 81 is when I came
- speakeron board.
- speakerOkay.
- speakerMaybe Carol brought it up
- speakerthat with Gene Bay.
- speakerOh, about the support group.
- speakerYeah. No.
- speakerWell, no, about studying the issue.
- speakerAbout studying the issue we need to
- speakerstudy the issue. That was the first
- speakerpiece we got to study the issue.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerthe years coming up and we said,
- speakerwe're going to do this, we have to
- speakerdo this.
- speakerAnd he was and Gene was reluctant
- speakerbecause he hadn't studied the issues
- speakerand was maybe reticent.
- speakerAnd Carol said, I'd be willing to
- speakerchair the study group
- speakerif we do it, but with one condition.
- speakerWhat's that?
- speakerThat there be a gay person on the
- speakercommittee.
- speakerI don't even know who that person,
- speakergay or lesbian, has.
- speakerI don't have to know who it is.
- speakerBut to be authentic,
- speakersomeone who was impacted by whatever
- speakerdecisions we make need to be a part
- speakerof this process somehow.
- speakerSo at that time,
- speakerlike how how these things
- speakerwork is just amazing to me.
- speakerBut I had come out
- speakerto Gene Bay
- speakerby that time because
- speakerthe Project for
- speakerCivil Rights Advocacy
- speakerthat the Presbytery funded
- speaker5,000 dollars
- speakerfor a three year project
- speakertoward develop an ecumenical
- speakerlesbian and gay civil rights
- speakeradvocacy network for
- speakerupstate New York.
- speakerBold, but that's Jim
- speakerRice, you know.
- speakerSo it's the influence of some very
- speakerprogressive people in the presbytery
- speakerand and and the
- speakerpeople who are going to be part of
- speakerthat were part of that Presbyterians
- speakerfor Gay Concerns are some of the
- speakerfolks they're going to be a part of
- speakerthat. So the year
- speakerfirst year of that project
- speakerwas was our first six months,
- speakerpart of the part of the
- speakerpresbytery agreement to do this was,
- speakerokay, you're going to report
- speakerback. And of course, we
- speakerwanted that to happen because the
- speakermore conversation, the more
- speakerengagement on reluctant issues
- speakerand reluctant to talk is
- speakerhelpful because you hear people's
- speakerstories.
- speakerSo the agenda
- speakerfor that first six months in 1980
- speakerwas
- speakerwho's going to speak at presbytery?
- speakerAnd one of them what one part of was
- speakergoing to be a story and then some
- speakerBible reflection and, you
- speakerknow, just general status and so
- speakerforth.
- speakerAnd so everybody stepped
- speakerback and I was the one
- speakerI was not out at
- speakerwork. I worked at Xerox.
- speakerI was not out at the congregation
- speakereither. I was finding my way,
- speakermy partner.
- speakerWhat became the person
- speakerI was dating at the time
- speakerby October of
- speaker80, Van
- speakerwas a member of Calvary St. Andrews,
- speakerand I'm not sure if they were More
- speakerLight church at that point.
- speakerThey might have been, have to
- speakerlook at it.
- speakerBut I was really concerned.
- speakerI felt, okay, if I'm going to come
- speakerout on the floor presbytery, which
- speakeris the First Presbyterian Church in
- speakerPittsburgh,
- speakerto do that with any integrity, I
- speakerneeded to come out to the pastors.
- speakerSo I started with Bill
- speakerYoung and Pat Youngdahl
- speakerand then to and then to redhead.
- speakerYes, Pam Harvey.
- speakerPam Harvey and then Gene
- speakerBay.
- speakerAnd to a person, they were
- speakersupportive
- speakerand it was just it was I felt
- speakerso affirmed from that.
- speakerSo when Gene was challenged then
- speakerultimately by Carol
- speakerKawalec, Gene
- speakerhad a person and there was
- speakeranother gay person in the
- speakercongregation, a gay, openly
- speakergay, sort of, which you mentioned,
- speakerStuart, Stu Zellmer.
- speakerBut
- speakerI was the one who was it ended
- speakerup being on the on that study
- speakerstudy group
- speakerwhich.
- speakerYou know, it was just amazing how
- speakerthat all came to came to be.
- speakerTo me, the other part with the
- speakerstudy group was they enlarged it.
- speakerIt wasn't just homosexuality.
- speakerThere was so much.
- speakerSo just put this in context because
- speakersome of the other issues that were
- speakergoing on in the day were
- speakersexuality among older adult adults.
- speakerNon-married people.
- speakerNon-married people,
- speakerabortion, no,
- speakerand then teenage sexuality.
- speakerI mean, all the all of this, so it
- speakerwas we feltit important
- speakerto get to have a more comprehensive
- speakercontext, which
- speakerinterestingly echoes
- speakerback to the pre
- speakerthe study the national study
- speakerprior to 78, which was also
- speakerRochester.
- speakerInclusive study.
- speakerThat was 1970,
- speakerJ. C. Wynn, he was a member
- speakerof the presbytery.
- speakerBut it was professor at
- speakerColgate Rochester Divinity
- speakerSchool,
- speakerchaired that national task force for
- speakerthe denomination
- speakeron human sexuality.
- speakerWas that the on Ginnie Davidson was
- speakeron?
- speakerHers was the one that reported 76 to
- speaker78.
- speakerOkay, right, right.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerSo and that 1970
- speakerreport also had the civil rights
- speakerpiece of it, which then was
- speakeralso echoed in the 78
- speakerreport.
- speakerBut that's this is all Rochester,
- speakerwhich is just incredible to me.
- speakerBut so that
- speakerthat so then that's so
- speakerwhen we formed our own
- speakerstudy group in the congregation,
- speakerthere were the context
- speakerto come to.
- speakerWe took the 1970 which was I think
- speakerthe larger
- speakerand have. So we talked about
- speakerabortion, we talked about teenage
- speakersexuality. We talked about,
- speakeryou know, sexuality in older adults,
- speakeryou know, your spouse passes,
- speakeryou know, companionship
- speakerand and physical
- speakerengagement, you know, hugs,
- speakeryou know, whatever. You know,
- speakertouch is so important.
- speakerWe're we're sexual
- speakerbeings our whole lives in different
- speakerways.
- speakerSo everyone someone
- speakerhad a had to.
- speakerSo we divided it up and
- speakerI got the sexual I got the
- speakerhomosexuality one and I'm not
- speakerout to the I'm not even out to the
- speakergroup at all.
- speakerIt was just crazy.
- speakerBut first,
- speakerPamela Harvey and then Pat Youngdahl
- speakerfacilitated that.
- speakerAnd
- speakershe was just really great.
- speakerYeah I came in when Pat was doing
- speakerthat and we were meeting over at Stu
- speakerZellmer's house and we were going
- speakerthrough biblical passages.
- speakerAt first I remember sort
- speakerof pointing out
- speakerwhat the Bible has to say.
- speakerJustice issues, really basically.
- speakerAnd then we also looked at some of
- speakerthe clobber texts.
- speakerWe weren't calling them that
- speakerat the time, but some of those texts
- speakerand I
- speakerremember that was an eye opener
- speakerbecause I really wasn't vividly
- speakerbiblically educated.
- speakerI had one class of biblical history
- speakerin college, but it wasn't
- speakerdidn't sink in
- speakerso many years ago.
- speakerAnd as I say, we had during
- speakerthose two or three years,
- speakerwe had education
- speakerprograms for our for
- speakerour congregation, and we
- speakerwere going to education
- speakerprograms at Downtown Church.
- speakerAnd we were,
- speakeryou know, even before a More Light
- speakerstatement and after our More Light
- speakerstatement, where we were learning
- speakerhow to talk to other
- speakerchurches and we were getting
- speakerguidelines. And our
- speakerapproach was, Yeah, this is a
- speakerjustice issue, but
- speakerhow can we meet
- speakerthe opposing side
- speakeron biblical texts the
- speakerway they are? And I think
- speakerI've learned since that that we
- speakerreally can't talk
- speakertext to text, that we really have to
- speakermeet that argument
- speakeron other
- speakerplatforms as well as biblical
- speakertexts, except
- speakerfor the Bible
- speakergoes toward love or
- speakerthe new, you know, bends toward that
- speakerdirection.
- speakerBut
- speakerso then yeah we took it and
- speakerback to Ann and I was after
- speakerthat it passed I was so grateful
- speakerto Ann, I was only
- speakera little disappointed for about a
- speakermonth Ann, and
- speakerthen you had worked miracles
- speakerfor that, but then we had a lot more
- speakereducation to do
- speakerafter that.
- speakerI want to go back
- speakerto the.
- speakerSo we so we studied.
- speakerWe studied for a year
- speakerand then we reported the session.
- speakerRight.
- speakerWere you on session at that point or
- speakerjust.
- speakerI think I was not because I think I
- speakercame.
- speakerOkay, but what was really
- speakerinteresting about it was that our
- speakerreport was that
- speakerwe were
- speakerall of us to a person and learned so
- speakermuch. You know, we had we had one
- speakerarea.
- speakerThere was there was a woman whose
- speakername I forgot to focus on on
- speakerabortion. So she was really more she
- speakerwas our subject matter expert
- speakeron that topic.
- speakerBut each. And so a
- speakerlot of the rest of us learned a lot
- speakerof the nuances, you know, in
- speakerthe agonizing decisions and the
- speakerdifficulties.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerbut but really focusing
- speakeron the humanity, you know,
- speakerand what's happening to people,
- speakeryou know, in each of these each of
- speakerthese areas of concern.
- speakerSo part of our report and then
- speakerthe recommendation was that, you
- speakerknow, we learned so much
- speakerand oh, I forgot to mention this.
- speakerThis study group was convened
- speakerin private.
- speakerThe congregation and the leadership
- speakerof the congregation was this is like
- speakera hot potato issue.
- speakerAnd we were
- speakercloistered.
- speakerNo one was to know
- speakerwhat we were doing,
- speakeryou know, outside of session.
- speakerAnd so we
- speakerreported the session and said we
- speakerlearned so much individually
- speakerand we really
- speakervery much encourage
- speakerthe congregation to have an
- speakeropportunity to engage similarly.
- speakerSo we recommended we had a
- speakerprocess of a theologian
- speakerin residence.
- speakerPat Youngdahl
- speakerhad attended Vanderbilt
- speakerSeminary and it was one
- speakerof her professors.
- speakerPeggy Way.
- speakerPeggy Way.
- speakerOh, what a brilliant,
- speakerbrilliant move.
- speakerPeggy was had
- speakera physical disability
- speakerof some sort. I don't remember
- speakerexactly what it was, but
- speakera very wise person.
- speakerAnd so she came for the weekend and
- speakerthen invited us.
- speakerWe had. We had marker boards.
- speakerAnd we have a history of doing that.
- speakerSo.
- speakerVery much in the tradition, so this
- speakerkind of continues.
- speakerVisiting theologian.
- speakerOur tradition right? Yeah.
- speakerVery important to our life as a
- speakercongregation.
- speakerSo she allowed like a week,
- speakerSaturday, Friday night, Saturday
- speakerkind of kind of education.
- speakerAnd then Sunday morning she
- speakerpreached it. All the services
- speakerThat must have been by the time I
- speakerwas here, because I remember that.
- speakerYeah, that's great.
- speakerShe she has a book I have on
- speakerhuman sexuality.
- speakerI don't remember the title of it,
- speakerbut I remember.
- speakerAnd I was here when Chris Glaser
- speakercame.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerI mean, just continues.
- speakerWas what it was that was it after
- speakerthat? That then Carol Kawalec
- speakerformed the support group.
- speakerYeah. So what?
- speakerSo what happened then?
- speakerYeah. And that was really what was
- speakerreally cool. So to
- speakerthink we so we so
- speakerPeggy, the thing that she really
- speakerleft us in the workshop was
- speakerwhatever you do,
- speakerwe are not depending on the topic
- speakerand depending on where we are in our
- speakerlives, on our journey,
- speakerwe, we,
- speakerwe have a we all in different
- speakeraspects, different times
- speakersee the need to conserve.
- speakerAnd then we also at different,
- speakerdifferent times and different topic,
- speakerdifferent different subjects
- speakerwhatever we there's a
- speakerneed to liberate.
- speakerSo we are not
- speakerliberal.
- speakerThe labels it's where the labels
- speakerdon't work because
- speakeryou're not consistently liberal.
- speakerAnd being liberal, doesn't mean
- speakerthat you there's there's not things
- speakeryou don't care about in which to
- speakerconserve.
- speakerRight.
- speakerSo since we're all
- speakerliberating, seek
- speakerliberation at different
- speakerpoints and different different parts
- speakerof our journey, and we seek to
- speakerconserve and save and treasure.
- speakerSo she says,
- speakerif we can within the congregation.
- speakerIs my dad talking?
- speakerI know isn't it?
- speakerIt's wisdom, it's just wisdom.
- speakerSo she really
- speakerhelped us to think in terms
- speakerof liberal, liberating, conserving,
- speakerand those are both positive
- speakervalues.
- speakerIt's not.
- speakerEither or.
- speakerOne's light and one's it's not
- speakereither or it's both and
- speakerin different degrees.
- speakerSo it was very, very helpful.
- speakerSo after that, the week after
- speakerthat and we had a so organized
- speakerhow does this we just got to look into it our why?
- speakerWhere's the Presbyterian way?
- speakerMaybe it's the Presbyterian way.
- speakerYou have a follow up to talk
- speakerabout the retreat and what and
- speakerwhat we learned.
- speakerAnd plus, the next steps.
- speakerYou know, this isn't for naught.
- speakerSo there were two
- speakerthings which really came out
- speakerof that, as in my recollection.
- speakerOne was,
- speakerall right.
- speakerElizabeth Cockcroft?
- speakerCockcroft, right.
- speakerLongtime member,
- speakerher husband or her brother David
- speakerCockcroft
- speakerultimately was a pastor at Riverdale
- speakerChurch in New York.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerBut Elizabeth had experienced
- speakerdivorce
- speakerand did not receive
- speakerthe support in the congregation.
- speakerAnd so that was.
- speakerSo in the context of the human
- speakersexuality and human experience, that
- speakerwas one of the things that came up
- speakeron that in that during that retreat
- speakerthat bubbled up as some
- speakerreally good conversation.
- speakerOh, yeah.
- speakerI know. I have, you know, my
- speakerexperience too.
- speakerWe need a support group.
- speakerAnd the other one was for
- speakergay and lesbian support.
- speakerSo that's how that came.
- speakerIt was after Peggy
- speakerWay.
- speakerAnd so there was a support group.
- speakerEvery Monday evening there's Carol
- speakerKawalec for several years
- speakerwould come. But in forming that
- speakersupport group and letting
- speakerthe word be known in the community
- speakersession really had to think about it
- speakerhard and long because
- speakerthey thought, well,
- speakergays and lesbians are going to come
- speakerinto our building and the Boy
- speakerScouts are here on Monday nights.
- speakerAnd would that be a conflict?
- speakerAnd what
- speakerwould others think who are coming
- speakerhere for other meetings?
- speakerAnd.
- speakerJust as the AIDS epidemic
- speakerwas really being understood,
- speakerI was actually in charge of the
- speakerblood bank at Strong Memorial
- speakerHospital at that time.
- speakerAnd people who had been transfused,
- speakerof course, were some of the first
- speakerpeople in a medical
- speakersetting that were understood to
- speakerhave this huge immunodeficiency
- speakerin addition to young
- speakermen.
- speakerAnd we were then and
- speakerthat drove the research on that
- speakerissue. And I remember it was 1983
- speakerwhen we found the virus and
- speakerdeveloped a test and we're able
- speakerto test the blood supply.
- speakerAnd so there was all that
- speakerfear at that time
- speakeras well about what that was going
- speakerto mean for our community.
- speakerBut Carol did get the go ahead to
- speakerhave a support group.
- speakerAnd but she
- speakerwas asked by the session to
- speakerreport back once a year
- speakeron
- speakerhow many people came, what
- speakertypes of things they talked about.
- speakerNot nothing specific, but because
- speakerall.
- speakerNot personally identified.
- speakerIt was
- speakerconfidential and
- speakershe would get
- speakerfour or six, sometimes some
- speakerevenings. Eventually, after several
- speakeryears, it tapered off.
- speakerThere were other opportunities in
- speakerthe community, but it provided
- speakera very good
- speakerministry for
- speakergay and lesbian
- speakerand I think it also helped
- speakerus.
- speakerWe got a couple of new members
- speakerin our community from that
- speakersupport group.
- speakerAt one point we had nuns coming.
- speakerYeah. Oh, that's right.
- speakerSo it was ecumenical.
- speakerSo it was ecumenical.
- speakerYeah. So it wasn't just
- speakerPresbyterians.
- speakerWe had a there was a
- speakerso there was an ad at first after
- speakerthe oh we need these two groups
- speakerforming and then there were like
- speakerad hoc committees
- speakerto kind of shape what it might look
- speakerlike. So there was each of them,
- speakereach of them had.
- speakerAnd so Elizabeth
- speakerwas on, on the divorce one.
- speakerAnd, and there were
- speakerseveral of us who were on the
- speakeron a support group suggestion.
- speakerSo but and fortunately, Pat
- speakerYoungdahl, Pat was
- speakerthe, helping to
- speakerhelp us to put our thoughts
- speakertogether.
- speakerSo we put this thing, this, this
- speakerpiece together. So we had an ad hoc
- speakergroup that was meeting
- speakerto form.
- speakerNo longer in the closet
- speakerto the congregation.
- speakerWell, we weren't formally recognized
- speakeras but but.
- speakerOnce the support.
- speakerCongregation knew there was a
- speakersupport.
- speakerNo they knew that there was an
- speakerad hoc committee to form the support
- speakergroup.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerThe problem was that when it got to
- speakersession we actually had, we'd wrote
- speakerit up and,
- speakerand then there
- speakerwas a big debate on session,
- speakerremember about
- speakeris it going to support I don't
- speakerknow if I like the word support.
- speakerAre we are we giving approval
- speakerfor homosexuality by
- speakerusing the word support?
- speakerWhy don't we call it discussion
- speakergroup?
- speakerAnd that was before me.
- speakerSo that was.
- speakerThe was before you?
- speakerCan you can you imagine?
- speakerWell, so one of
- speakerthe things, you know, so all this is
- speakerthis roller coaster ride that we go
- speakerthrough. Thank goodness we had
- speakera way for people to be who were
- speakerwho were being objectified
- speakeror being, you know, impacted by it,
- speakerlike myself and others.
- speakerBut it was to
- speakerhave this discussion and
- speakerthen have pastoral leadership
- speakerto help us, so Pat
- speakerin her wisdom.
- speakerAbsolutely, as a very young pastor.
- speakerFirst pastorate right?
- speakerSays.
- speakerAbsolutely wonderful.
- speakerShe was really, really good.
- speakerShe said, well, you know, we're
- speakertrying to encourage people into
- speakerto live into their innate goodness.
- speakerBut and and
- speakershe said.
- speakerThere are a lot of different
- speakerdynamics. But you know what really
- speakerI find works in this congregation.
- speakerWhat what what? Because
- speakerI was getting upset, you know,
- speakerthat we weren't things weren't moving
- speakerthey weren't going fast enough, it's
- speakerlike. Winsome, winsome, if we could be So
- speakerit's just the
- speakerway you engage.
- speakerHumble, yes.
- speakerThe humble.
- speakerIt's not.
- speakerWe're not taking over.
- speakerNot taking over.
- speakerRight. Because there was also.
- speakerOh, you're going to form a group.
- speakerOh. So then they approved.
- speakerThey finally did approve with our
- speakerwinsomeness.
- speakerThey approved the word
- speakerusing the word support, but
- speakerwe couldn't advertise outside
- speakerthe congregation because
- speakerwe would be inundated with
- speakergay people coming over from Park
- speakerAvenue, coming into the church,
- speakerheavens we might actually have a
- speakervery successful evangelism program,
- speakerbut, you know.
- speakerHeavens.
- speakerHeavens, heavens to Betsy.
- speakerBut so
- speakerso we so we
- speakerremember that whole debate.
- speakerAnd this is, I think, was very
- speakerhelpful to me. Another piece of
- speakerwisdom from Pat,
- speakerI said if we
- speakerfirst of all the
- speakerdebate was shall we take
- speakerthis to session then
- speakerfor them to decide?
- speakerBecause if we do that, then
- speakerwe're giving up.
- speakerWhat if they say, no?
- speakerNo, you're not going to have a
- speakersupport group.
- speakerThen what?
- speakerAnd then Pat
- speakerthinks about it and she says,
- speakerOh, no, we
- speakerare going to have a support group.
- speakerThe question is whether or not
- speakerit's going to be formally
- speakerrecognized by
- speakerthe leadership of the congregation,
- speakerwhich would then allow us to
- speakerpublicly advertise
- speakerit within the
- speakercongregation newsletter and so
- speakerforth, which I thought,
- speakeryou know, she said,
- speakerthis is where the feminist thinking
- speakercomes in.
- speakerNever give up the power,
- speakeryou know.
- speakerAnd so I
- speakerthat was so reassuring
- speakerthe learnings, you know, one winsome
- speakermiss and the other is
- speakeras it's like you
- speakertake the high road, I'll take the
- speakerlow road, but then we'll get there.
- speakerWe'll both get there. Right?
- speakerI think a lot of us were delighted
- speakerthat session was able to pass
- speakera More Light statement and declare
- speakerourselves as a member congregation
- speakerof the More Light movement and
- speakerimmediately, rather, rather
- speakerpromptly within the presbytery, in
- speakercontrast to the other congregations
- speakerwho had been there, done
- speakerthat for several years.
- speakerThird was immediately seen as
- speakera renegade, rogue
- speakeroutlier and some
- speakerof the more
- speakerconservative churches.
- speakerI think I can use that term at this
- speakerpoint, were very
- speakerunhappy because they saw
- speakerThird Church as taking a
- speakerleadership role in the presbytery,
- speakerthen as the largest church,
- speakerwe had a significantly
- speakerlarge membership at that time
- speakerand they felt that this was going to
- speakerbe a run away and their feelings
- speakerwere just being run over.
- speakerAnd they also felt that this was
- speakerin contrast to their
- speakerunderstanding of the definitive
- speakerguidance and
- speakerJesus and the Bible and
- speakerfelt rather quickly that it was
- speakertime to stop this from happening
- speakerand going any further.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerI, I believe it was one
- speakerchurch in particular and one
- speakerpastor who brought
- speakeran action to presbytery.
- speakerAnd maybe you guys will remember that.
- speakerWell, actually, there were several
- speakerchurches.
- speakerSeveral jumped on.
- speakerAnd they tried to
- speakerthey tried initially to
- speakertalk us out. They thought our More
- speakerLight statement and all the
- speakerbackground material
- speakerthat we said that we were going to
- speakerordain, even though the definitive
- speakerguidance was there that we were
- speakergoing to ordain.
- speakerAnd so we had a discussion.
- speakerIt was in this room, and members
- speakerof the three or four
- speakerchurches
- speakercame here was when
- speakerWilson Kilgore was
- speakeran interim. So we were
- speakera little bit vulnerable because we
- speakerwere had an interim and they were
- speakergoing to talk us out of
- speakerrescinding our More Light statement.
- speakerAnd I remember and Pat Youngdahl
- speakerwas still here, so she was also
- speakerhere. But
- speakerand I remember we talked for
- speakera long time and
- speakereverybody said what they were
- speakerthinking about it.
- speakerAnd there were some just terrible
- speakerthings that were said about.
- speakerOur church.
- speakerOur church, and about.
- speakerUs.
- speakerGay people in general and
- speakerhow disruptive
- speakerthat population could be.
- speakerI remember going and there was no
- speakerresolution.
- speakerI remember going out here feeling
- speakerphysically sick.
- speakerI don't think I've ever felt that
- speakerway before or since.
- speakerAnd so it was after that meeting
- speakerthat then these churches put a
- speakerremedial case on us.
- speakerAnd yeah, that was in probably
- speaker80.
- speakerIt was pretty.
- speakerPromptly.
- speakerIt was pretty quickly because we
- speakerpassed this in 87.
- speakerAnd I was still in session and I was
- speakeron the committee of three that
- speakerthen supported our case.
- speakerAnd there were two attorneys that
- speakerwere members of Session and
- speakermyself and I joke
- speakernow that I was the person to change
- speakertheir language into plain
- speakerlanguage, because this is not a
- speakercourt of law in
- speakerthe state, county or federal
- speakergovernment. This is among people
- speakerthat are like ourselves.
- speakerAnd so
- speakerwe.
- speakerAnd the attorneys
- speakertook all of the minutes that we had
- speakerfrom all of our meetings that we'd
- speakerhad for the last three or four
- speakeryears, and looked
- speakerover them, made copies of them and
- speakerlooked over them, trying to
- speakermake the case
- speakeragainst the remedial case, just
- speakersaying that, no, these people were
- speakernecessary planning to ordain.
- speakerThey were just saying that every.
- speakerIn fact or statement did not say
- speakerthat. It said that there would not
- speakerbe a barrier right to full
- speakerparticipation.
- speakerAnd that was one of the things that
- speakerI made sure when we
- speakerwrote the statement that there were
- speakernot inflammatory remarks.
- speakerIt left it open and affirming
- speakerwas the point that we tried
- speakerto come to.
- speakerAnd so I think the statement was
- speakerentirely defensible.
- speakerAnd and it proved to
- speakerbe so.
- speakerWell and and it was and it was
- speakerthe foundation part of
- speakerthe foundation
- speakerreally is as one of the
- speakerdenominational foundations, which is
- speakerGod alone is lord
- speakerof the conscience.
- speakerAnd so this is a statement of
- speakerconscience, and
- speakerthat cannot be litigated.
- speakerAnd the other thing was
- speakerthat I think it was right around
- speakerthat time
- speakerwhen it was when the
- speakerafter the the
- speakerour the language of definitive
- speakerguidance was through the northern
- speakerstream of the Presbyterian Church.
- speakerAnd having grown up in the southern
- speakerstream and being a youth
- speakeryouth advisory delegate when they
- speakermet in Tuscaloosa in the
- speakermid-seventies,
- speakerit was very clear,
- speakeryou know, from this whole history in
- speakerthe Southern Church of State's
- speakerRights, if you will.
- speakerYou know, that whole language that
- speakerthe what the statements
- speakerfrom the Assembly are
- speakeris guidance,
- speakerbut it's not constitutional
- speakerguidance that has no legal
- speakerbut it's more of
- speakerit's guidance.
- speakerAnd so it's only when the
- speakeractual constitution itself
- speakeris changed, the Book of Order
- speakeris changed.
- speakerAnd even decisions of the PJs
- speakerPermanent Judicial Commission
- speakerdoesn't change the Book of Order,
- speakerthe Book of Order had to be
- speakerdeliberately changed.
- speakerSo at the time when
- speakerthere were requests for
- speakerlike Presbytery of New York City
- speakerand other presbyteries
- speakerasking for guidance
- speakerin the Northern Church,
- speakerit was interpreted differently
- speakerbecause the church was much more
- speakerhierarchical in the northern stream
- speakerthan in the southern stream.
- speakerThat's very interesting.
- speakerWhich is an interesting, interesting
- speakernuance.
- speakerSo and that was brought into
- speakerthat whole conscience
- speakerclause, if you will,
- speakercommitment on the part of the
- speakertradition, on the part of the
- speakerdenomination is what
- speakerwon the day.
- speakerOne thing that I remember vividly is
- speakerthat as a part
- speakerof our working through this
- speakerissue in presbytery, our
- speakersession agreed and wanted
- speakerto meet with the sessions of the
- speakerother churches.
- speakerIt turned out there were three at
- speakerleast that were
- speakerwanting to jump on to this,
- speakerand I
- speakeronly remember one of the church's
- speakersessions willing to meet with us.
- speakerAnd again, Pat Youngdahl, I
- speakerremember this vividly led the way
- speakerand helped us get ready
- speakerto meet with this happened
- speakerto be Brighton Presbyterian Church's
- speakersession and
- speakershe knew that we were
- speakerthat we were going to disagree
- speakerand that we were not going to come
- speakerout of there with a single positive
- speakerway to go between the two groups.
- speakerShe knew that the best
- speakerwe could do was listen with
- speakerour hearts and be open
- speakerto what we were hearing and
- speakertry to,
- speakerif possible, help them listen
- speakerand be open.
- speakerBut she also was very clear
- speakerthat it was up
- speakerto us to be open and
- speakerto listen.
- speakerAnd I'll just never forget
- speakerher leadership on that and how
- speakerimportant and critical it was and
- speakerhow that helped us get through that
- speakermeeting, because there were terrible
- speakerthings said there as well.
- speakerAnd.
- speakerWas that that group that we had
- speakerover Twelve Corners Presbyterian
- speakerChurch, we had several tables.
- speakerI remember one of those discussions,
- speakeranother one.
- speakerWe got in a small group of groups
- speakerwith two sessions members
- speakerfrom one church and two from another
- speakerand and
- speakerhad a little bit of a facilitated
- speakerguide to discuss things.
- speakerAnd
- speakerI think we came out
- speakerand my impression is that we came
- speakerout feeling even more strongly that
- speakerthis had to happen and go forward
- speakerand.
- speakerThat we had done the right thing.
- speakerAnd that we had done the right thing
- speakerin every case.
- speakerAnd I do remember some
- speakerpeople.
- speakerStarting to turn the corner from the
- speakerother churches.
- speakerI think the dialog
- speakerwas entirely useful and I think that
- speakerwas Pat.
- speakerI believe that was Pat helping
- speakerus to have that dialog and providing
- speakerthat leadership because we didn't
- speakereven have to go do that.
- speakerThere was no call to do that.
- speakerAnd we wanted to we wanted
- speakerto try and peacefully
- speakerhave an open dialog and move forward
- speakertogether.
- speakerAnd so.
- speakerSo it's 88.
- speakerThe Presbytery PJC found
- speakerno illegality to Third Church's
- speakerMore Light statement, and then in
- speaker89, the Synod found no illegality.
- speakerAnd and then in
- speaker91, we helped organize
- speakera More Light conference here.
- speakerThe More Light national organization
- speakerwas growing a little bit, and
- speakerso we
- speakerorganized, along with
- speakerGinnie Davidson and Downtown Church.
- speakerThere was a lot of collaboration
- speakerwith our churches here.
- speakerCalvary St. Andrews was very much a part of that.
- speakerRochester. Yeah.
- speakerAnd this national conference
- speakerand I don't know, we got 100
- speakerand so people at that one.
- speakerProbably the most it was most at
- speakerthat time I think.
- speakerI think Third Church was maybe the
- speaker35th.
- speakerI don't remember.
- speakerMore Light Church, but we were the
- speakerlargest one and Genesee
- speakerValley Presbytery had five,
- speakerfive More Light churches, which is
- speakermore, more than any presbytery in
- speakerthe country. Which at the time
- speakerwhich was, which was also really
- speakerinteresting. So there was
- speakera curiosity about the area, well
- speakerhow does this.
- speakerWhat's going on up there?
- speakerAnd how does this what's going on up
- speakerthere? So there.
- speakerSo I think the
- speakerthe year the first first
- speakerMore Light conference or the second
- speakerone that we that we organized
- speakerin Genesee Valley.
- speakerIt like, doubled
- speakerthe number of people that came to
- speakerthe conference than from the
- speakeryear prior but it was
- speakerit was.
- speaker1996 was the
- speakernext one we hosted in 96.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerNow when, when were you
- speakerordained.
- speakerDo you remember what year?
- speakerWell, I know I went through
- speakerwith all the different other
- speakerordinations. I went well, I went
- speakerthrough a leadership piece.
- speakerI went to first on trustees.
- speakerBut when were you ordained to
- speakersession?
- speakerIt was on two terms on trustees.
- speakerSo I think it's
- speakera three year term. So it was
- speakerit was in the nineties.
- speakerIt was in the nineties.
- speakerIt was before
- speakerthe.
- speakerI was just I was still on trustees,
- speakerin fact I was counting.
- speakerI was counting upstairs.
- speakerThere were during the session during
- speakerthe during the congregational vote.
- speakerBut it was before
- speakerthe National Church actually
- speakervoted to
- speakerrescind all this language in its
- speakerBook of Order. So what we
- speakerwere going on was
- speakerthat the session had said that they
- speakerwould not
- speakerthe questions that they would ask
- speakersomebody to be ordained are the
- speakernormal ordination questions.
- speakerAnd they would also
- speakerwe had
- speakera review process, a training process
- speakerto make sure that people that were
- speakernominated and elected
- speakerwere fit to be
- speakeron on session, you know, they're of
- speakersound mind and body and such.
- speakerBut we did ordain before
- speakerall the Book of Order was
- speakerwas changed because we were going
- speakerwith our More Light statement to say
- speakerthat
- speakerI wish I had our More Light
- speakerstatement here, but
- speakerwe would choose,
- speakeryou know, we would not discriminate.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerWere there cases brought against you
- speakerfor ordaining?
- speakerNo. No, because.
- speakerThey had given up at the Synod level
- speakerand
- speakerboth cases were unanimous
- speakerat that point and I
- speakerthink they understood the futility
- speakerof that at that time.
- speakerWell, so.
- speakerAnd it wasn't necessarily that
- speakeranybody was out.
- speakerI mean, nobody was hiding.
- speakerRight.
- speakerAnd we also weren't purposefully
- speakerlooking.
- speakerWe were choosing the the best
- speakerpeople.
- speakerWe were following our conscience
- speakerand our statement and not
- speakerhaving
- speakerhuman condition be a barrier.
- speakerSomewhere around that time.
- speakerAnd it may have happened also at
- speakerSynod. But like every
- speakerI'll make this statement about our
- speakerpresbytery, this every
- speakeropportunity this presbytery has had
- speakerto formally
- speakerconsider
- speakeran inclusive path
- speakeror a,
- speakeryou know, hold it, hold it kind of a
- speakerpat.
- speakerThey've always taken
- speakerthe high road, taken the inclusive
- speakerpath and somewhat to
- speakerthe point that so when the
- speakercase was brought against Janie
- speakerSpahr,
- speakerthe call was affirmed.
- speakerIt was challenged.
- speakerThe next presbytery meeting, the
- speakercall was reaffirmed.
- speakerThen it went to synod.
- speakerSynod approved it, approved
- speakerthe action of the presbytery.
- speakerThat's challenged.
- speakerThen it goes to General Assembly.
- speakerAnd that's that's when it changed.
- speakerThen it gets sent back and then
- speakerthen they work through it and there
- speakerhave recordings of that.
- speakerBut but this synod
- speakeralso this is a little known fact.
- speakerThe synod voted to
- speakerbecome a More Light synod
- speakernow, and
- speakerthat was some of the same folks.
- speakerBruce Billman.
- speakerI'm not surprised, but I did not
- speakerknow that.
- speakerMargaret Stoltman, Lily Jules,
- speakeryou know, and Kay Wroblewski,
- speakerthere's a little merry band and they
- speakerwould just do their knitting and,
- speakeryou know, and, and organize women
- speakerat the synod.
- speakerAnd Bruce would pal along.
- speakerAnd, you know, Bruce is really cool.
- speakerHave you met Bruce?
- speakerYeah.
- speakerBruce is Bruce is the one that
- speakercame out to Ginnie Davidson and
- speakeris the reason that that's how she
- speakerbegan her journey.
- speakerDear family friend,
- speakergreat guy.
- speakerBut
- speakersynod became a More Light Synod.
- speakerNow the next the following is I
- speakerthink they were actually had made
- speakerthat statement of inclusion
- speakerwhen all this other stuff was going
- speakerup. So you've
- speakergot to go through several
- speakerjudicatories before you get
- speakeran anit-inclusion
- speakermindset.
- speakerYou know.
- speakerAt that time.
- speakerAt that time, it was really
- speakerremarkable.
- speakerBut I think it's really driven by
- speakerthe history of this area
- speakeron human concern for human
- speakerthe human condition.
- speakerSusan B. Anthony, women's rights,
- speakerthe abolitionists.
- speakerWelcoming refugees.
- speakerLong, long history.
- speakerLong history of that.
- speakerLong history and continues.
- speakerUnited Nations.
- speakerYou know, we have our little model
- speakerin Rochester UN,
- speakeryou know, here and so forth.
- speakerNow, do we want to bring up the
- speakerBoy Scouts? We have a Boy Scout
- speakertroop that has met in this
- speakerchurch for over
- speaker100 years.
- speakerFor 100 years.
- speakerAnd
- speakerthere was a doctor in
- speakerour congregation who was John
- speakerMorton and another doctor, Dr.
- speakerStewart, who were both Boy
- speakerScouts when they were young and
- speakerleaders and.
- speakerBecame Eagle.
- speakerYeah, became Eagle.
- speakerAnd but they were very disturbed
- speakerthat the national Boy Scout
- speakerorganization and
- speakerthis was in 2000.
- speakerJohn and
- speakerand Jim Stewart
- speakerstarted working with our
- speakerBoy Scout troop here and then the
- speakercouncil here
- speakerand writing letters
- speakerand saying that,
- speakerI don't know, they hope that they
- speakerwould
- speakerbe open to
- speakerwelcoming gay Boy Scouts and
- speakerleaders and
- speakerknowing the national
- speakerpolicy.
- speakerAnd so we had a good you know, and
- speakerthere was thought, well, if they
- speakerdon't, do we ask the Boy Scouts
- speakerto leave? But is that the right
- speakerthing to do?
- speakerAnd I think really
- speakerwhat we ended up with was
- speakerthat the troop really
- speakerdidn't say that they'd come right
- speakerout and say that they would
- speakergo against national policy,
- speakerbut we agreed that we would keep
- speakerin dialog, and I think that's
- speakersort of the way we ended up.
- speakerDon't you remember that, is that
- speakerwhat you remember?
- speakerYes. And then what was happening
- speakerconcurrently with all that, it was
- speakerat the council level.
- speakerThere was the the gay alliance.
- speakerThere was a a group that we
- speakerthat I ended up getting involved
- speakerbecause the council
- speakeroffices were diagonally just.
- speakerAcross the street.
- speakerNot even a block away.
- speakerRight.
- speakerAlmost literally across the street.
- speakerAnd at at Christmas time, we had the
- speakerChristmas tree sales for the Boy
- speakerScouts. And it's like and I
- speakerenvisioned oh gosh.
- speakerHere we are More Light church, you
- speakerknow, saying we're welcoming.
- speakerAnd then you got the Boy Scouts,
- speakeryou know, selling Christmas trees
- speakerand we're going to have protests
- speakerin front of the church. So I said,
- speakerOh, my gosh. So there was this group
- speakerstarting with the gay alliance.
- speakerAnd I said, I got to get involved.
- speakerSo I did. And I said, I'll be the
- speakersecretary.
- speakerAnd so that's we called it the
- speakerCoalition to Save Scouting.
- speakerWhat was very interesting in this
- speakerwhole process was learning
- speakerthat
- speakerfirst of all we had some leadership
- speakerin the congregation involved.
- speakerThe council is led by volunteers
- speakerfrom the community and a member of
- speakerour church was the chairperson
- speakerslash president of the council.
- speakerWas that Frank Crego?
- speakerFrank Crego at that time.
- speakerDown the street.
- speakerThey
- speakermoved to denounce the
- speakernational policy.
- speakerAnd I was a Boy Scout leader at that
- speakertime. I continue today.
- speakerSo I always figure that it's
- speakerbetter to stay with the group and
- speakertry to change rather than
- speakerleave them.
- speakerSo they've been
- speakercoming right along and so.
- speakerSo
- speakerwe had a little meeting.
- speakerSo Frank Frank lived
- speakerin and had been in our home. My
- speakerpartner and I, we lived on
- speakerPark Avenue area.
- speakerAnd then Frank and
- speakerSusan lived, you know, lived
- speakera block away.
- speakerAnd so we had
- speakera small meeting around our
- speakerdinner table and
- speakerjust fairly early
- speakeron.
- speakerAnd one of the questions that came
- speakerup was,
- speakerwell, what is your goal?
- speakerThe council the council
- speakermembers asking some of the members
- speakerof the gay community, what is your
- speakergoal? Is it is it adult
- speakerleadership, employment,
- speakeryou know, leaders?
- speakerAnd we said no.
- speakerSo the real the real fundamental
- speakerconcern is that
- speakerboys, as they grow
- speakerup, affirm the values
- speakerof what we see as the values of
- speakerscouting. In other words,
- speakerhelping those that need help,
- speakerfighting bullying in
- speakerschools and society
- speakerand finding helpful leadership,
- speakeryou know.
- speakerIn mind, body and spirit.
- speakerAnd so and so
- speakerthere was there was a retired Kodak
- speakerexecutive on the council, he
- speakersays, we can work
- speakerwith that.
- speakerAnd and then what part
- speakerof what then became articulated in
- speakerthe council was that,
- speakeryou know, a basic tenet of council
- speakeris that, you know, when you when
- speakeryou're when you're going to organize
- speakera game,
- speakereverybody gets to play.
- speakerIt's not some and some.
- speakerAnd the goal is not who wins
- speakerand who loses, but everybody
- speakergets to play.
- speakerSo how do we get to how do we
- speakerget to that?
- speakerAnd and
- speakerthen then also with people like
- speakerDr. Stewart and Dr. Morton, I mean,
- speakerthey were as Eagle Scouts doing
- speakerspeak outs, essays on, you
- speakerknow, in the newspaper.
- speakerWriting letters to the editor.
- speakerWriting letters to the editor, etc.,
- speakeryou know, and then affirming those
- speakerkind of basic core values of
- speakerscouting.
- speakerAnd ultimately then the leadership
- speakerof the council,
- speakerworking with other councils around
- speakerthe country, progressive councils
- speakerto say that.
- speakerAnd they and they told National,
- speakerif we cannot find a way
- speakerforward that is inclusive,
- speakerwe will not survive
- speakerin this part of
- speakerthe country
- speakerbecause that is against
- speakerthe values of the community.
- speakerSo the whole notion the legacy
- speakerthen of women's
- speakerrights movement, you know,
- speakerliberation from slavery,
- speakeryou know, and all of that
- speakercame forward in a very tangible
- speakerway.
- speakerIt's a part of the legacy of the
- speakercommunity.
- speakerSo our
- speakercommittee
- speakerhad several participants
- speakernationally.
- speakerRalph was on the More Light
- speakerPresbyterians board for a long time.
- speakerA couple of people were on the That
- speakerAll May Freely Serve board.
- speakerOf course we know John Wilkinson was
- speakeron the Covenant Network in the
- speakerbeginning of that.
- speakerRalph went to G.A.
- speakerand I went to G.A. as overture
- speakeradvocates a couple of times.
- speakerI have to show you my shirt.
- speakerOn the various
- speakerareas.
- speakerThis is the shirt, one of the shirts
- speakerfrom General Assembly from the
- speakereighties.
- speakerAnd it was and it was created
- speakerby the spouse of a presbytery
- speakerexecutive, so.
- speakerOh, that's right.
- speakerPresbyterians do it decently and in
- speakerorder.
- speakerWhich was scandalous in the
- speakereighties, let me tell you.
- speakerIt was very scandalous, certainly.
- speakerThat's very neat.
- speakerAnd and and we wrote overtures
- speakerand we concurred with other
- speakerovertures. So there every
- speakeropportunity we had.
- speakerAnd Ralph was the one that kept
- speakertrack of what was happening in
- speakerGeneral Assembly in general.
- speakerAnd he'd say in the fall, okay,
- speakernow we've got to get this thing
- speakertogether because we've got to have
- speakerit by February or March
- speakerand got to be through Presbytery.
- speakerSo let's work backwards and let's
- speakerwrite something or let's take one.
- speakerAnd so, you know, Amendment
- speakerB or against Amendment B, Amendment A, delete Book of Order G6.0106b
- speakeror interpretation
- speakerevery step of the way Third Church
- speakerhad something to say about these,
- speakerand we were instrumental
- speakerin putting
- speakerbringing them to Presbytery.
- speakerAnd as Ralph said that presbytery
- speakereven though we were concerned at
- speakertimes, we did some
- speakertelephone calling, making sure
- speakerpeople were going to come to
- speakerpresbytery meeting on the day the
- speakervote came.
- speakerPresbytery voted
- speakerin the inclusive way every
- speakertime we were there.
- speakerBut yeah so
- speakerI remember talking in
- speaker2008
- speakerin San Jose
- speakerand
- speakerit was to the definitive guidance
- speakerto get rid of that and to.
- speakerBut it never got to the floor of
- speakerpresbytery on that one.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerAnd I went back in 2012
- speakerand talked on marriage equality.
- speakerSo once we got ordination
- speakerpassed, then we started working
- speakerwith
- speakermarriage equality.
- speakerAnd we really worked with all
- speakerof the churches in in New
- speakerYork State
- speakerand we've worked with churches in
- speakerRochester.
- speakerSo all of these efforts
- speakerwere collaborative,
- speakeractually.
- speakerYeah. And then in terms
- speakerof marriage, then we also
- speakercollaborated with the Empire State
- speakerPride Agenda, which is the New York
- speakerState LGBT
- speakeradvocacy, and they had a program
- speakercalled Pride in the
- speakerPulpit.
- speakerSo there was a pride in my
- speakerworkplace, pride in my union,
- speakerforgot the others. But then pride in
- speakerthe pride in the pulpit was the one
- speakerthat we were really working on.
- speakerAnd what was very interesting was
- speakerthat Interfaith Advocates
- speakerfor LGBT people, which
- speakerwas an organization
- speakerthat Dr. Stewart was leading,
- speakerprovided leadership for at one
- speakerpoint,
- speakerand then I did at one point
- speakerhelped to
- speakeradvocate that, hey, we need we need
- speakerto do it. We need to do some
- speakereducation and do some ecumenical
- speakergathering of faith leaders
- speakerto advocate for marriage equality
- speakerin New York state.
- speakerSo we had this wonderful
- speakerdivinity school, Colgate Rochester
- speakerCrozer Divinity School, where
- speakerJ. C. Wynn had been in 1970,
- speakeryou know, and then all these
- speakerprogressive
- speakerprofessors and so
- speakerforth was the host
- speakerside for the very first
- speakermarriage equality training
- speakerfor the Pride in the Pulpit
- speakerprogram to advocate for marriage
- speakerequality.
- speakerAnd we had
- speakerpeople from especially from New York
- speakerCity we were like absolutely
- speakerastounded that we had like 75
- speakerfaith leaders
- speakershow up on a Saturday morning
- speakerto do this education.
- speakerAnd it was it was literally across
- speakerthe board in terms of in terms
- speakerof faith groups involved.
- speakerReally, we are very interesting.
- speakerSo
- speakerthe other the other topic in general
- speakerwas the transgender issue, which is
- speakerwhich we are deeply involved
- speakerin as a congregation.
- speakerMaybe you want to speak to that and
- speakerthen that might be a good place
- speakerto end.
- speakerUm.
- speakerYeah, I think, um,
- speakerI mean, we certainly we're
- speakerGENDA, which is a New York state
- speakergender equality bill,
- speakerwe worked many years
- speakerand it wasn't until this year
- speakerwhen we got a Democratic
- speakerSenate in the New York state
- speakergovernment that that it passed.
- speakerBut we kept
- speakerthe we, along with
- speakerother churches and other
- speakerorganizations, we'd go to Albany,
- speakerlobby day, Ralph,
- speakerorganize everybody to go.
- speakerRalph had such faith that, you know,
- speakerwe could just do all of this, this
- speakerand that. We could go
- speakerand make a difference.
- speakerLifetime.
- speakerI know miracles.
- speakerMake a difference.
- speakerYou know, work miracles.
- speakerYou really were a miracle worker.
- speakerUm, but so the
- speakertransgender and we've just
- speakerbeen involved in Transgender
- speakerDay of Remembrance
- speakerand educating our congregation
- speakeron transgender issues.
- speakerAnd then we're part of, and we've
- speakerbeen for a couple of decades,
- speakera lecture series
- speakerthat has a divinity school and a
- speakerBaptist church and
- speakerPresbyterian Church is at Fiskville.
- speakerAnd Ralph's been involved in that
- speakerand we've had a
- speakercouple of transgender speakers
- speakerthere.
- speakerAnd speaking of that lecture group,
- speakerway back when they first got
- speakerstarted, we were
- speakerwe had security, we
- speakerhad these lectures. We were afraid
- speakersomebody were going to come in and
- speakerbe disruptive.
- speakerAnd and
- speakerwe didn't publicize them
- speakertoo too far and
- speakerwide, but we did publicize a little
- speakerbit. And we had security in
- speakerplace that if anybody came in, it
- speakerwas it was scary.
- speakerIt really was.
- speakerAnd we developed a process
- speakerthat, you know, after a while, it's
- speakergoing to be a disruption then what
- speakerwould we do? How would we respond?
- speakerSo we actually, you know, talked
- speakerwith a number of key people
- speakerahead of events, you know,
- speakerso that we would we would start
- speakerclapping, you know, or whatever,
- speakeryou know, those kind of responses
- speakerso that the voices and shut
- speakeroff microphones, etc., you
- speakerknow, it's like, oh, my gosh.
- speakerBut it was, you know, there were
- speakersome, you know, we forget.
- speakerBut some of those early days were
- speakerscary because the
- speakervitriol
- speakerwas palpable.
- speakerSo but now we're
- speakernow we're we're looking at we have
- speakersome we've had
- speakerat least two ongoing,
- speakeryou know, the last several
- speakeryears, people who are
- speakerwho have transitioned, we've had
- speakermembers now become
- speakerknowledgeable that there are members
- speakerin their congregation grow who've
- speakergrown up and have transitioned. Oh go ahead.
- speakerSo what I was going to say is your
- speakerwork.
- speakerI'm the I was not a part
- speakerof the policy work at that point as
- speakermuch. I was busy with
- speakerSunday school and youth leadership,
- speakeretc. And what's
- speakerhappened in my view
- speakeris that several families
- speakerin our congregation who've been
- speakerpersonally touched by transitions
- speakerand transitioning children have been
- speakerfully supported and
- speakerfound a loving home, and
- speakertheir own gender expression can
- speakerbe what's right for
- speakerthem and transition
- speakeras they needed to
- speakerto find the right expression.
- speakerAnd what a wonderful
- speakerthing that your work has done that
- speakerpeople like that.
- speakerOur families have felt embraced
- speakerby the church and church members
- speakerand they haven't had to hide or
- speakergo away
- speakeror feel excluded,
- speakerbut rather feel included.
- speakerSo good work.
- speakerGreat,
- speakerbut then also people, you know
- speakerfamilies joined.
- speakerI know at least three young people
- speakerand people join.
- speakerPeople in joining.
- speakerRight.
- speakerWho are trans.
- speakerOr just joining because they
- speakerwant their children to grow up in
- speakerour congregation.
- speakerInclusive environment.
- speakerWhere you can talk about these
- speakerthings.
- speakerAnd to be fair, we've lost
- speakercongregation members as well.
- speakerSo as a result
- speakerof the More Light statement, we lost
- speakermore than one. We lost I know we
- speakerlost the person on session
- speakerwho abstained and
- speakerthere were others.
- speakerBut we also gained.
- speakerOh yeah there's not an issue of.
- speakerYeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd so my real quick was
- speakerjust to thank you for your work
- speakeron that because we
- speakercontinue to grow as a congregation
- speakerand be a safe place for
- speakerpeople to come.
- speakerAnd it's a it's wonderful
- speakerthing we can do that.
- speakerSo good job.
- speakerBut the work isn't done.
- speakerSo I think so.
- speakerPart of our I see as our
- speakercongregation our next next steps
- speakerin addition to really and
- speakerdeepening
- speakertransgender is the whole area
- speakerof bisexuality.
- speakerThat was another whole topic.
- speakerBut but in addition, there are two
- speakermajor streams that
- speakerI think we need to somehow
- speakerwork on as a congregation.
- speakerMaybe not in the More Light
- speakerCommittee but the congregation needs
- speakerto really get specific on and that
- speakerhas to do with economics
- speakeryou know because we're our
- speakeryou know how we welcome
- speakerpeople of different economic
- speakerbackgrounds because this.
- speakerSo I was going to say inclusivity
- speakerway beyond that and we still
- speakerhave many steps
- speakerto go to be an inclusive
- speakercongregation.
- speakerAnd also race.
- speakerAnd also for people with
- speakerdisabilities, disabilities,
- speakerwe have a hearing-impaired young
- speakerlady that wants to come to church
- speakerhere. There is not one church in
- speakerour presbytery that has ASL
- speakerinterpretation.
- speakerIt's time to step up to the plate
- speakerand welcome fully people who
- speakerneed support to be here.
- speakerWell, fortunately there's
- speakerthe accessibility.
- speakerSo I've been writing them.
- speakerThe Accessibility Task Force.
- speakerTask Force.
- speakerWe have a task force on that,
- speakerbut also I think race.
- speakerRace.
- speakerNo question.
- speakerNo question.
- speakerWe have so much.
- speakerWe have work to do.
- speakerAnd refugees that are different
- speakerkinds of refugees, not just the ones
- speakerthat some people find acceptable.
- speakerYeah, yeah, yeah.
- speakerAnd it was our church that was
- speakerstarting back, Lilian Alexander
- speakerback in the fifties, who then
- speakermade it possible for the first
- speakeroverture for women to become
- speakerordained.
- speakerSo we're just following in her footsteps.
- speakerSo we're just following her steps.
- speakerYeah. But
- speakerwhat I was reminded of last,
- speakerthe last
- speakercommunion
- speakerJean
- speakerwas no it wasn't Jean wasn't
- speakerpresiding was, was she presiding at
- speakerthe last on?
- speakerBut it was is either Jean or it was.
- speakerWell anyway here's the, here's the
- speakerpoint. The point is it was
- speakervery, very clear and it clearly
- speakerstated this is not
- speakera Presbyterian table.
- speakerThat was Ernest.
- speakerReverend Krug.
- speakerIt was everyone is welcome at this
- speakertable.
- speakerEveryone is welcome.
- speakerI mean, it's very, very clear.
- speakerIt's an open table.
- speakerYes.
- speakerYou know, and all all are welcome.
- speakerSo that probably to me,
- speakerthat just really resonated because
- speakerthat's that's who we strive
- speakerto be, you know as a church
- speakerplace for everybody is
- speakerwelcoming find a place
- speakerof joy of of safety,
- speakersanctuary.
- speakerBut a place where one can
- speakerdream dreams and.
- speakerFeel loved.
- speakerFollow them.
- speakerUnderstand the love of God as a
- speakerchild of God.
- speakerAbsolutely.
- speakerYeah.
- speakerThat's a good place to stop.