Third Presbyterian Church More Light Committee oral history, 2019.

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    So if you just want to go ahead and
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    start with how you became involved
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    with the More Light movement.
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    Well, my name is Ralph Carter, and
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    I'm a Florida native,
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    but always Presbyterian.
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    So I went to school in Atlanta,
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    Georgia Tech, and I came
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    out in the
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    mid 1970s.
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    So this was maybe six,
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    seven years after
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    Stonewall.
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    I remember hearing about it, you
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    know, in
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    early high school, I think it was.
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    And so
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    I came out
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    in college, but in the day
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    I was in the day and Sunday morning
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    I went to Druid Hills Presbyterian
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    Church on Ponce de Leon Avenue
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    in Atlanta.
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    And then I went to Sunday night.
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    I would go to to a Metropolitan
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    Community Church, which was the
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    LGBT congregation.
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    So
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    I was afraid to come out.
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    So I lived I lived a dualistic
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    life. So so when I when I
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    and so then I moved to Rochester
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    in 1979, summer of
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    79, started to work
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    at Xerox.
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    And I joined Third Church
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    that fall
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    simultaneously with all.
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    And part of my big quest was
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    can I integrate my life?
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    Can I live fully
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    and have the kind of childhood
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    experience I had as a child in the
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    Presbyterian Church where
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    it's okay to ask questions?
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    I mean, we had sexuality education
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    in our little church in
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    Chipley, Florida, which is rather
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    unusual and really progressive, I
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    think, for the day, for
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    the sixties and seventies.
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    So it was a very interesting
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    congregation. So I was almost.
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    And my faith was very important to
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    me. So I wanted to I was hoping to
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    be able to explore all
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    of that and
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    and the church
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    providing sanctuary.
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    So that was my quest.
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    I so I joined
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    third church primarily
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    because of the education the music,
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    which is very important to me and
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    also the preaching and
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    the, the,
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    the, the just the atmosphere of
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    the congregation.
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    I saw in the summer of
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    79
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    an Empty Closet newspaper
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    Presbyterian an advertisement for
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    a monthly potluck
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    that was happening
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    organized by Presbyterian, then
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    Presbyterians for Gay Concerns.
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    And so I went to the potluck
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    and there were great folks
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    and one of the people who came
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    periodically was Virginia Davidson,
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    but then some other presbytery
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    staff,
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    associate members
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    of the staff would
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    pop in every once in a while,
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    but I remember really being touched
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    by the
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    some of the women in the group who
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    were not gay
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    or lesbian, but really
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    saw the justice
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    issues and concerns of
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    how people were being treated
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    and also that people should be able
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    to live their lives without
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    fear of societal
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    retribution
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    and so forth. So
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    prior to my coming to coming to
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    Rochester, I think it was in
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    it was so 1970, some of the folks
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    involved were also commissioners to
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    the 1978 General Assembly
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    in San Diego such
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    that
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    they were
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    what happened at that General
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    Assembly was a complete
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    180 from
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    what was being recommended for the
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    Assembly, as and I'm sure other
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    people have already described.
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    But
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    Virginia Davidson,
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    who chaired the National Task
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    Force on the church's
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    concern with homosexuality led
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    hearing sessions all across the
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    country
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    and
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    had testimony from
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    people who basically
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    came out
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    with the very real possibility
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    that they would lose their jobs.
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    And they came out.
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    And some of the testimony, I think,
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    was in private, but some a lot of it
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    was in public.
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    So there was the
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    what was recommended for the
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    Assembly ended
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    up as part of
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    the present, the presentation to the
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    assembly, the committee that
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    was hearing it,
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    that became the
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    there was a majority report and
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    there was a minority report
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    coming in from the committee.
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    And then it completely
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    went topsy turvy.
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    So for those
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    who were concerned about the justice
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    issues, there
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    was very. It was only in
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    the in the
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    addendum to the report,
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    anything positive.
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    So there were people so that
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    that gathering was really concerned
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    about what do we do?
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    And we were despairing.
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    Jim Rice, who was a member of this
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    member of the presbytery and
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    was associate
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    leader for
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    civil rights advocacy
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    and justice issues
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    who worshiped with this congregation
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    and his wife Lucile,
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    who was a member,
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    came to us, came to us and said,
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    well, you know, the presbytery the
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    denomination is doing major funding
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    for funding, effort,
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    mission challenge, and
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    a third of the funds are going to
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    stay local.
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    And so there was a
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    so if there's anything that you
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    would like to do as a group
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    to invite the presbytery to be
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    involved in education or
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    advocacy, you know, around
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    lesbian and gay
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    justice issues, then
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    what about a proposal?
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    So he encouraged us to do that.
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    And there was one element.
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    And we took the 78 report
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    and there was one element that
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    called for
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    called the church to
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    continue its tradition
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    of advocating for
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    civil rights.
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    So that's what we did.
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    So that that will lead to a to
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    a project we'll describe in a
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    moment. But simultaneously
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    with all of that conversation is
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    what do we do? What did we do?
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    Before I joined the group,
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    there was a
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    conversation about
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    well there were congregations who
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    were actually
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    saying formally, we disagree
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    with the action
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    of the 1978 General Assembly
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    and we call ourselves More Light
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    borrowing from
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    the.
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    Oh, gosh, John,
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    it was it was a pilgrim, the
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    pilgrims coming to the new world.
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    So there's
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    there is yet more light to break
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    forth from the word, basically is
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    what the statement
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    is.
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    So there were congregations.
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    And so
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    very early on one of that, one of
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    the first ones was at the Downtown
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    United Presbyterian Church.
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    But there were all the was also very
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    quickly
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    John Calvin Presbyterian Church
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    and then Calvary St. Andrews,
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    and then there was Westminster
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    and then of course, later, much
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    later on, Third Church.
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    But there's there's other congregations
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    these aside from the Downtown
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    Church, the other congregations
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    were and were part of a group of ten
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    congregations who were invited,
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    as I recall.
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    This needs to be validated through
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    some other folks, because
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    I wasn't there to be a part
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    of that effort.
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    Were invited.
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    Ten congregations were visited,
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    their sessions were visited,
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    and they were invited to consider
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    joining Downtown Church and becoming
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    a More Light Church.
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    And I think that happened in
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    1970, early in the
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    spring of 79, which is
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    actually since we're 2019, it's
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    actually 40 years.
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    So. Right. So
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    that that was
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    before I just before I,
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    I showed up, but that was when
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    part of that effort included
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    Third Presbyterian Church.
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    And were you Betty
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    on that session
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    at that time?
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    When they when the I think it was
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    Keith Hershberger and
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    Lee Fisher perhaps
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    that came to the to
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    meet with their church session.
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    Yeah I was but I
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    really came into the picture in
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    80 mostly and 81
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    when the task force got
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    formed.
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    So
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    I joined third
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    church in 76 and
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    I joined I it was I was
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    Episcopalian, but I looked at
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    a lot of churches when we moved to
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    Rochester, Episcopalian,
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    Presbyterian, Congregational.
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    And I found their church and really
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    seemed like a
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    wonderful
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    church.
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    They had men who could work
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    in the kitchen, you know, for
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    the meals.
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    And I just so impressed because I
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    came from a
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    Episcopal church where the
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    men just did the ushering
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    and service and the women just did
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    the altar guild.
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    And so I really was very
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    conscious about women's roles
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    in in the church.
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    And so that's why I joined Third
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    Church.
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    But a couple of years later, Carol
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    Kawalec, who was very instrumental
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    in this whole movement,
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    said to me, You know, Betty, the
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    Presbyterian Church has something
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    called the definitive guidance.
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    And, you know,
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    gay people are not allowed to be
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    ordained in the church.
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    And I said, well, I don't think
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    that's possible.
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    The Presbyterian Church is you can
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    do you know, it's totally
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    open and free. And I don't think I
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    knew anybody at that point
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    who was gay, but I just said
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    that's that's impossible.
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    Well, she found me the
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    statements from General Assembly,
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    and that
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    came across with a definitive guide.
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    And I said, Well, I've got to either
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    stay with the church and work to
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    change it, maybe, you know,
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    optimistic or go find another
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    denomination.
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    And it was about that time that
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    then Pat Youngdahl,
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    who was an.
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    Assistant.
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    Assistant pastor here at the time,
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    was given the task by
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    the session to form
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    a task force
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    to come up with a More Light
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    statement if we wanted to.
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    So that's where Ralph said
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    that, you know, these churches
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    could be do we want to join in
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    to become a More Light church?
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    Well, to become a more like church,
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    our church really felt that we
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    needed to study and
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    educate ourselves and educate
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    our congregation and study
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    some more and educate our
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    congregation.
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    So we started that in
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    early
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    well, late, late seventies.
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    It was and
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    it wasn't until 87 that we actually
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    came up with a More Light statement.
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    But I said I would join that
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    committee. And that
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    was when I then met Ralph
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    and Stu Zellmer and Carol Kawalec
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    and a few other people
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    and where we started working
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    on this More Light statement
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    and during part of that education
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    process, we had Chris
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    Glaser came
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    and gave us a gave a talk
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    and potluck
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    dinner. This whole room was jammed,
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    packed. People, wanted were hungry
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    to hear about what was
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    going on in the church
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    having to do with gay and lesbians
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    and ordination.
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    And I remember Chris Glaser saying
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    at that time, I
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    don't even know if it's going to be
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    in my lifetime that the church is
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    going to change. It's going to be at
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    least 30 years.
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    And I thought to myself, boy, that
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    that's a lifetime, 30 years.
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    I was a little older
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    than 30 at that point, but
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    not much.
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    And so that was a little
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    discouraging for me to hear
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    that.
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    But our
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    committee worked on and on.
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    And so maybe this is where you come
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    back in, Ralph and then Ann came
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    in, well, maybe you want to
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    introduce yourself and then we can
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    all merge together when we
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    actually brought the more statement
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    to.
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    Yeah.
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    To session to pass,
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    and that's where Ann was
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    played a really important role,
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    right?
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    So I'm Ann McMican and I'm the
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    newest to the table.
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    I came to Third Church in 1981,
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    even though I was born into
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    the Presbyterian Church, PK, a
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    daughter of a Presbyterian pastor
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    who was very instrumental
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    in my lifetime with civil
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    rights in Michigan
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    during the Civil Rights Movement.
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    And my house was the original
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    place, I think, where
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    a priest, a rabbi and a pastor
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    got together and talked.
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    And they came to my house when I was
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    a kid and my dad worked on civil
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    rights things.
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    I came from a place where dad said
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    he didn't like labels, and even
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    though he would today
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    be considered a flaming liberal at
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    the time, he would not have liked
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    to be have that label
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    he felt he was following
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    and his heart's
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    understanding of what Jesus wants us
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    to do.
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    And so I came
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    in late to the table then, and
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    although I was a young person when I
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    came to their church, I
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    was elected as an
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    elder in about 1986.
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    I joined in 81.
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    I was busy with refugee
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    resettlement.
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    I was in the choir.
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    I was doing a lot of different
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    things here
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    and elected as an
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    elder and ordained in about
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    86.
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    So I was there on session.
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    I was probably the one of us who
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    was on session at the time.
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    The task force brought the
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    statement to session.
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    And even at that time, our
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    congregation, having gone through
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    a lot of education and a lot
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    of soul searching, there was not
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    unanimity of the
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    session members.
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    We had a large session.
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    We may still we had 24
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    session members, three
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    classes of eight.
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    I remember vividly.
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    And when
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    the statement came,
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    it was clear that there were some
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    members of session who were not
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    going to be able to vote for it
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    as it was written.
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    And I was very sorry
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    on the one hand, but that was a time
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    when the Spirit moved in my life
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    and I raised my hand in
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    session and said that I
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    would be willing to take the
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    statement that they worked two years
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    on and
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    see what I could do with
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    the small group to
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    adjust it very modestly
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    to help it be acceptable
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    so that we could pass the statement.
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    We didn't even the first time
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    around, we didn't even vote
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    because it was clear it
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    was not going to pass.
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    And so we went
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    away and I think it maybe took
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    a month or two.
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    It was I, I remember
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    it being pretty quick.
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    Yeah it was. It was pretty quick.
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    Relatively speaking.
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    And I had some quick
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    ideas. I don't know if you guys
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    remember that,
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    but I remember vividly the words
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    that were difficult for people and
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    we could adjust them to the current
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    statement. And we brought it back
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    rather quickly.
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    And it was clear
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    that the revised statement,
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    even though it was gently revised
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    in my mind, was acceptable
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    to everybody, to all but one
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    session member.
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    And we voted in that
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    person, abstained, and then
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    rescinded membership in our church
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    because it was something that that
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    particular person was not able
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    to believe was the right
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    way to go, did not feel that
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    that was what Jesus was calling
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    us to do.
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    So I believe then it was
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    probably then adopted unanimously
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    and we were
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    really thrilled to become a More
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    Light church.
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    It was where we needed to be.
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    And everyone, I think everyone
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    in session
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    was very, very happy about the
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    possibility, the
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    the chance that we were able to take
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    to do that.
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    How did you guys feel about that?
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    I'm sure you were disappointed.
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    I was at that meeting Ann
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    when you spoke
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    up and my heart just sank,
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    I thought we had worked two years,
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    maybe three years, and
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    and we just thought we really had it
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    perfect.
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    And yet here this session, there
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    wasn't consensus and.
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    And more than one,
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    I mean, many more than one.
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    And I just I thought,
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    you know, we're never going to get
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    through through this and.
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    And never going to let go of it.
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    And I,
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    you know, one side I was
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    grateful for Ann to say, let me see
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    what I can do. And the other was
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    thinking, what can Ann do that we
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    couldn't do?
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    Yeah, well part of the so there was
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    this whole dynamic,
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    I think it was
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    actually brilliant on the part of
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    the congregation
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    leadership in
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    1980.
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    I'll come back to this very first
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    part. I think we needed to answer
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    your question.
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    You know, there was there was the
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    ordained leadership was the elected
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    leadership, and then there were
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    those who were impacted
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    by the decision.
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    So early on,
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    working with Pat Youngdahl.
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    And
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    we, you know, we first we first had
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    to study at a study group
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    because of
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    the way that happened.
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    That's kind of oh, I think is kind
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    of interesting because it was.
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    I think Carol Kawalec was on session
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    at the time.
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    And so there had been the
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    presentation by some
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    members of Presbyterians for Gay
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    Concerns to all
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    the congregations that the top ten,
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    if you will, most likely
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    to succeed
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    and a Third being one of them.
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    And so the commitment session made
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    it that after that presentation
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    was to itself,
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    made commitment to itself, that it
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    would study that it would
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    it would it would make a decision on
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    studying within a year that it would
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    study the issue.
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    So the year was passing by.
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    And my understanding from
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    Carol Kawalec
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    actually said
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    or did you say were you in session
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    at that point?
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    This was like 1980.
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    Yeah, I think I was.
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    Well, 81 is when I came
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    on board.
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    Okay.
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    Maybe Carol brought it up
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    that with Gene Bay.
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    Oh, about the support group.
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    Yeah. No.
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    Well, no, about studying the issue.
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    About studying the issue we need to
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    study the issue. That was the first
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    piece we got to study the issue.
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    And and
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    the years coming up and we said,
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    we're going to do this, we have to
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    do this.
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    And he was and Gene was reluctant
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    because he hadn't studied the issues
  • speaker
    and was maybe reticent.
  • speaker
    And Carol said, I'd be willing to
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    chair the study group
  • speaker
    if we do it, but with one condition.
  • speaker
    What's that?
  • speaker
    That there be a gay person on the
  • speaker
    committee.
  • speaker
    I don't even know who that person,
  • speaker
    gay or lesbian, has.
  • speaker
    I don't have to know who it is.
  • speaker
    But to be authentic,
  • speaker
    someone who was impacted by whatever
  • speaker
    decisions we make need to be a part
  • speaker
    of this process somehow.
  • speaker
    So at that time,
  • speaker
    like how how these things
  • speaker
    work is just amazing to me.
  • speaker
    But I had come out
  • speaker
    to Gene Bay
  • speaker
    by that time because
  • speaker
    the Project for
  • speaker
    Civil Rights Advocacy
  • speaker
    that the Presbytery funded
  • speaker
    5,000 dollars
  • speaker
    for a three year project
  • speaker
    toward develop an ecumenical
  • speaker
    lesbian and gay civil rights
  • speaker
    advocacy network for
  • speaker
    upstate New York.
  • speaker
    Bold, but that's Jim
  • speaker
    Rice, you know.
  • speaker
    So it's the influence of some very
  • speaker
    progressive people in the presbytery
  • speaker
    and and and the
  • speaker
    people who are going to be part of
  • speaker
    that were part of that Presbyterians
  • speaker
    for Gay Concerns are some of the
  • speaker
    folks they're going to be a part of
  • speaker
    that. So the year
  • speaker
    first year of that project
  • speaker
    was was our first six months,
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    part of the part of the
  • speaker
    presbytery agreement to do this was,
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    okay, you're going to report
  • speaker
    back. And of course, we
  • speaker
    wanted that to happen because the
  • speaker
    more conversation, the more
  • speaker
    engagement on reluctant issues
  • speaker
    and reluctant to talk is
  • speaker
    helpful because you hear people's
  • speaker
    stories.
  • speaker
    So the agenda
  • speaker
    for that first six months in 1980
  • speaker
    was
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    who's going to speak at presbytery?
  • speaker
    And one of them what one part of was
  • speaker
    going to be a story and then some
  • speaker
    Bible reflection and, you
  • speaker
    know, just general status and so
  • speaker
    forth.
  • speaker
    And so everybody stepped
  • speaker
    back and I was the one
  • speaker
    I was not out at
  • speaker
    work. I worked at Xerox.
  • speaker
    I was not out at the congregation
  • speaker
    either. I was finding my way,
  • speaker
    my partner.
  • speaker
    What became the person
  • speaker
    I was dating at the time
  • speaker
    by October of
  • speaker
    80, Van
  • speaker
    was a member of Calvary St. Andrews,
  • speaker
    and I'm not sure if they were More
  • speaker
    Light church at that point.
  • speaker
    They might have been, have to
  • speaker
    look at it.
  • speaker
    But I was really concerned.
  • speaker
    I felt, okay, if I'm going to come
  • speaker
    out on the floor presbytery, which
  • speaker
    is the First Presbyterian Church in
  • speaker
    Pittsburgh,
  • speaker
    to do that with any integrity, I
  • speaker
    needed to come out to the pastors.
  • speaker
    So I started with Bill
  • speaker
    Young and Pat Youngdahl
  • speaker
    and then to and then to redhead.
  • speaker
    Yes, Pam Harvey.
  • speaker
    Pam Harvey and then Gene
  • speaker
    Bay.
  • speaker
    And to a person, they were
  • speaker
    supportive
  • speaker
    and it was just it was I felt
  • speaker
    so affirmed from that.
  • speaker
    So when Gene was challenged then
  • speaker
    ultimately by Carol
  • speaker
    Kawalec, Gene
  • speaker
    had a person and there was
  • speaker
    another gay person in the
  • speaker
    congregation, a gay, openly
  • speaker
    gay, sort of, which you mentioned,
  • speaker
    Stuart, Stu Zellmer.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    I was the one who was it ended
  • speaker
    up being on the on that study
  • speaker
    study group
  • speaker
    which.
  • speaker
    You know, it was just amazing how
  • speaker
    that all came to came to be.
  • speaker
    To me, the other part with the
  • speaker
    study group was they enlarged it.
  • speaker
    It wasn't just homosexuality.
  • speaker
    There was so much.
  • speaker
    So just put this in context because
  • speaker
    some of the other issues that were
  • speaker
    going on in the day were
  • speaker
    sexuality among older adult adults.
  • speaker
    Non-married people.
  • speaker
    Non-married people,
  • speaker
    abortion, no,
  • speaker
    and then teenage sexuality.
  • speaker
    I mean, all the all of this, so it
  • speaker
    was we feltit important
  • speaker
    to get to have a more comprehensive
  • speaker
    context, which
  • speaker
    interestingly echoes
  • speaker
    back to the pre
  • speaker
    the study the national study
  • speaker
    prior to 78, which was also
  • speaker
    Rochester.
  • speaker
    Inclusive study.
  • speaker
    That was 1970,
  • speaker
    J. C. Wynn, he was a member
  • speaker
    of the presbytery.
  • speaker
    But it was professor at
  • speaker
    Colgate Rochester Divinity
  • speaker
    School,
  • speaker
    chaired that national task force for
  • speaker
    the denomination
  • speaker
    on human sexuality.
  • speaker
    Was that the on Ginnie Davidson was
  • speaker
    on?
  • speaker
    Hers was the one that reported 76 to
  • speaker
    78.
  • speaker
    Okay, right, right.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    So and that 1970
  • speaker
    report also had the civil rights
  • speaker
    piece of it, which then was
  • speaker
    also echoed in the 78
  • speaker
    report.
  • speaker
    But that's this is all Rochester,
  • speaker
    which is just incredible to me.
  • speaker
    But so that
  • speaker
    that so then that's so
  • speaker
    when we formed our own
  • speaker
    study group in the congregation,
  • speaker
    there were the context
  • speaker
    to come to.
  • speaker
    We took the 1970 which was I think
  • speaker
    the larger
  • speaker
    and have. So we talked about
  • speaker
    abortion, we talked about teenage
  • speaker
    sexuality. We talked about,
  • speaker
    you know, sexuality in older adults,
  • speaker
    you know, your spouse passes,
  • speaker
    you know, companionship
  • speaker
    and and physical
  • speaker
    engagement, you know, hugs,
  • speaker
    you know, whatever. You know,
  • speaker
    touch is so important.
  • speaker
    We're we're sexual
  • speaker
    beings our whole lives in different
  • speaker
    ways.
  • speaker
    So everyone someone
  • speaker
    had a had to.
  • speaker
    So we divided it up and
  • speaker
    I got the sexual I got the
  • speaker
    homosexuality one and I'm not
  • speaker
    out to the I'm not even out to the
  • speaker
    group at all.
  • speaker
    It was just crazy.
  • speaker
    But first,
  • speaker
    Pamela Harvey and then Pat Youngdahl
  • speaker
    facilitated that.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    she was just really great.
  • speaker
    Yeah I came in when Pat was doing
  • speaker
    that and we were meeting over at Stu
  • speaker
    Zellmer's house and we were going
  • speaker
    through biblical passages.
  • speaker
    At first I remember sort
  • speaker
    of pointing out
  • speaker
    what the Bible has to say.
  • speaker
    Justice issues, really basically.
  • speaker
    And then we also looked at some of
  • speaker
    the clobber texts.
  • speaker
    We weren't calling them that
  • speaker
    at the time, but some of those texts
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    remember that was an eye opener
  • speaker
    because I really wasn't vividly
  • speaker
    biblically educated.
  • speaker
    I had one class of biblical history
  • speaker
    in college, but it wasn't
  • speaker
    didn't sink in
  • speaker
    so many years ago.
  • speaker
    And as I say, we had during
  • speaker
    those two or three years,
  • speaker
    we had education
  • speaker
    programs for our for
  • speaker
    our congregation, and we
  • speaker
    were going to education
  • speaker
    programs at Downtown Church.
  • speaker
    And we were,
  • speaker
    you know, even before a More Light
  • speaker
    statement and after our More Light
  • speaker
    statement, where we were learning
  • speaker
    how to talk to other
  • speaker
    churches and we were getting
  • speaker
    guidelines. And our
  • speaker
    approach was, Yeah, this is a
  • speaker
    justice issue, but
  • speaker
    how can we meet
  • speaker
    the opposing side
  • speaker
    on biblical texts the
  • speaker
    way they are? And I think
  • speaker
    I've learned since that that we
  • speaker
    really can't talk
  • speaker
    text to text, that we really have to
  • speaker
    meet that argument
  • speaker
    on other
  • speaker
    platforms as well as biblical
  • speaker
    texts, except
  • speaker
    for the Bible
  • speaker
    goes toward love or
  • speaker
    the new, you know, bends toward that
  • speaker
    direction.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    so then yeah we took it and
  • speaker
    back to Ann and I was after
  • speaker
    that it passed I was so grateful
  • speaker
    to Ann, I was only
  • speaker
    a little disappointed for about a
  • speaker
    month Ann, and
  • speaker
    then you had worked miracles
  • speaker
    for that, but then we had a lot more
  • speaker
    education to do
  • speaker
    after that.
  • speaker
    I want to go back
  • speaker
    to the.
  • speaker
    So we so we studied.
  • speaker
    We studied for a year
  • speaker
    and then we reported the session.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Were you on session at that point or
  • speaker
    just.
  • speaker
    I think I was not because I think I
  • speaker
    came.
  • speaker
    Okay, but what was really
  • speaker
    interesting about it was that our
  • speaker
    report was that
  • speaker
    we were
  • speaker
    all of us to a person and learned so
  • speaker
    much. You know, we had we had one
  • speaker
    area.
  • speaker
    There was there was a woman whose
  • speaker
    name I forgot to focus on on
  • speaker
    abortion. So she was really more she
  • speaker
    was our subject matter expert
  • speaker
    on that topic.
  • speaker
    But each. And so a
  • speaker
    lot of the rest of us learned a lot
  • speaker
    of the nuances, you know, in
  • speaker
    the agonizing decisions and the
  • speaker
    difficulties.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    but but really focusing
  • speaker
    on the humanity, you know,
  • speaker
    and what's happening to people,
  • speaker
    you know, in each of these each of
  • speaker
    these areas of concern.
  • speaker
    So part of our report and then
  • speaker
    the recommendation was that, you
  • speaker
    know, we learned so much
  • speaker
    and oh, I forgot to mention this.
  • speaker
    This study group was convened
  • speaker
    in private.
  • speaker
    The congregation and the leadership
  • speaker
    of the congregation was this is like
  • speaker
    a hot potato issue.
  • speaker
    And we were
  • speaker
    cloistered.
  • speaker
    No one was to know
  • speaker
    what we were doing,
  • speaker
    you know, outside of session.
  • speaker
    And so we
  • speaker
    reported the session and said we
  • speaker
    learned so much individually
  • speaker
    and we really
  • speaker
    very much encourage
  • speaker
    the congregation to have an
  • speaker
    opportunity to engage similarly.
  • speaker
    So we recommended we had a
  • speaker
    process of a theologian
  • speaker
    in residence.
  • speaker
    Pat Youngdahl
  • speaker
    had attended Vanderbilt
  • speaker
    Seminary and it was one
  • speaker
    of her professors.
  • speaker
    Peggy Way.
  • speaker
    Peggy Way.
  • speaker
    Oh, what a brilliant,
  • speaker
    brilliant move.
  • speaker
    Peggy was had
  • speaker
    a physical disability
  • speaker
    of some sort. I don't remember
  • speaker
    exactly what it was, but
  • speaker
    a very wise person.
  • speaker
    And so she came for the weekend and
  • speaker
    then invited us.
  • speaker
    We had. We had marker boards.
  • speaker
    And we have a history of doing that.
  • speaker
    So.
  • speaker
    Very much in the tradition, so this
  • speaker
    kind of continues.
  • speaker
    Visiting theologian.
  • speaker
    Our tradition right? Yeah.
  • speaker
    Very important to our life as a
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    So she allowed like a week,
  • speaker
    Saturday, Friday night, Saturday
  • speaker
    kind of kind of education.
  • speaker
    And then Sunday morning she
  • speaker
    preached it. All the services
  • speaker
    That must have been by the time I
  • speaker
    was here, because I remember that.
  • speaker
    Yeah, that's great.
  • speaker
    She she has a book I have on
  • speaker
    human sexuality.
  • speaker
    I don't remember the title of it,
  • speaker
    but I remember.
  • speaker
    And I was here when Chris Glaser
  • speaker
    came.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    I mean, just continues.
  • speaker
    Was what it was that was it after
  • speaker
    that? That then Carol Kawalec
  • speaker
    formed the support group.
  • speaker
    Yeah. So what?
  • speaker
    So what happened then?
  • speaker
    Yeah. And that was really what was
  • speaker
    really cool. So to
  • speaker
    think we so we so
  • speaker
    Peggy, the thing that she really
  • speaker
    left us in the workshop was
  • speaker
    whatever you do,
  • speaker
    we are not depending on the topic
  • speaker
    and depending on where we are in our
  • speaker
    lives, on our journey,
  • speaker
    we, we,
  • speaker
    we have a we all in different
  • speaker
    aspects, different times
  • speaker
    see the need to conserve.
  • speaker
    And then we also at different,
  • speaker
    different times and different topic,
  • speaker
    different different subjects
  • speaker
    whatever we there's a
  • speaker
    need to liberate.
  • speaker
    So we are not
  • speaker
    liberal.
  • speaker
    The labels it's where the labels
  • speaker
    don't work because
  • speaker
    you're not consistently liberal.
  • speaker
    And being liberal, doesn't mean
  • speaker
    that you there's there's not things
  • speaker
    you don't care about in which to
  • speaker
    conserve.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    So since we're all
  • speaker
    liberating, seek
  • speaker
    liberation at different
  • speaker
    points and different different parts
  • speaker
    of our journey, and we seek to
  • speaker
    conserve and save and treasure.
  • speaker
    So she says,
  • speaker
    if we can within the congregation.
  • speaker
    Is my dad talking?
  • speaker
    I know isn't it?
  • speaker
    It's wisdom, it's just wisdom.
  • speaker
    So she really
  • speaker
    helped us to think in terms
  • speaker
    of liberal, liberating, conserving,
  • speaker
    and those are both positive
  • speaker
    values.
  • speaker
    It's not.
  • speaker
    Either or.
  • speaker
    One's light and one's it's not
  • speaker
    either or it's both and
  • speaker
    in different degrees.
  • speaker
    So it was very, very helpful.
  • speaker
    So after that, the week after
  • speaker
    that and we had a so organized
  • speaker
    how does this we just got to look into it our why?
  • speaker
    Where's the Presbyterian way?
  • speaker
    Maybe it's the Presbyterian way.
  • speaker
    You have a follow up to talk
  • speaker
    about the retreat and what and
  • speaker
    what we learned.
  • speaker
    And plus, the next steps.
  • speaker
    You know, this isn't for naught.
  • speaker
    So there were two
  • speaker
    things which really came out
  • speaker
    of that, as in my recollection.
  • speaker
    One was,
  • speaker
    all right.
  • speaker
    Elizabeth Cockcroft?
  • speaker
    Cockcroft, right.
  • speaker
    Longtime member,
  • speaker
    her husband or her brother David
  • speaker
    Cockcroft
  • speaker
    ultimately was a pastor at Riverdale
  • speaker
    Church in New York.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    But Elizabeth had experienced
  • speaker
    divorce
  • speaker
    and did not receive
  • speaker
    the support in the congregation.
  • speaker
    And so that was.
  • speaker
    So in the context of the human
  • speaker
    sexuality and human experience, that
  • speaker
    was one of the things that came up
  • speaker
    on that in that during that retreat
  • speaker
    that bubbled up as some
  • speaker
    really good conversation.
  • speaker
    Oh, yeah.
  • speaker
    I know. I have, you know, my
  • speaker
    experience too.
  • speaker
    We need a support group.
  • speaker
    And the other one was for
  • speaker
    gay and lesbian support.
  • speaker
    So that's how that came.
  • speaker
    It was after Peggy
  • speaker
    Way.
  • speaker
    And so there was a support group.
  • speaker
    Every Monday evening there's Carol
  • speaker
    Kawalec for several years
  • speaker
    would come. But in forming that
  • speaker
    support group and letting
  • speaker
    the word be known in the community
  • speaker
    session really had to think about it
  • speaker
    hard and long because
  • speaker
    they thought, well,
  • speaker
    gays and lesbians are going to come
  • speaker
    into our building and the Boy
  • speaker
    Scouts are here on Monday nights.
  • speaker
    And would that be a conflict?
  • speaker
    And what
  • speaker
    would others think who are coming
  • speaker
    here for other meetings?
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    Just as the AIDS epidemic
  • speaker
    was really being understood,
  • speaker
    I was actually in charge of the
  • speaker
    blood bank at Strong Memorial
  • speaker
    Hospital at that time.
  • speaker
    And people who had been transfused,
  • speaker
    of course, were some of the first
  • speaker
    people in a medical
  • speaker
    setting that were understood to
  • speaker
    have this huge immunodeficiency
  • speaker
    in addition to young
  • speaker
    men.
  • speaker
    And we were then and
  • speaker
    that drove the research on that
  • speaker
    issue. And I remember it was 1983
  • speaker
    when we found the virus and
  • speaker
    developed a test and we're able
  • speaker
    to test the blood supply.
  • speaker
    And so there was all that
  • speaker
    fear at that time
  • speaker
    as well about what that was going
  • speaker
    to mean for our community.
  • speaker
    But Carol did get the go ahead to
  • speaker
    have a support group.
  • speaker
    And but she
  • speaker
    was asked by the session to
  • speaker
    report back once a year
  • speaker
    on
  • speaker
    how many people came, what
  • speaker
    types of things they talked about.
  • speaker
    Not nothing specific, but because
  • speaker
    all.
  • speaker
    Not personally identified.
  • speaker
    It was
  • speaker
    confidential and
  • speaker
    she would get
  • speaker
    four or six, sometimes some
  • speaker
    evenings. Eventually, after several
  • speaker
    years, it tapered off.
  • speaker
    There were other opportunities in
  • speaker
    the community, but it provided
  • speaker
    a very good
  • speaker
    ministry for
  • speaker
    gay and lesbian
  • speaker
    and I think it also helped
  • speaker
    us.
  • speaker
    We got a couple of new members
  • speaker
    in our community from that
  • speaker
    support group.
  • speaker
    At one point we had nuns coming.
  • speaker
    Yeah. Oh, that's right.
  • speaker
    So it was ecumenical.
  • speaker
    So it was ecumenical.
  • speaker
    Yeah. So it wasn't just
  • speaker
    Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    We had a there was a
  • speaker
    so there was an ad at first after
  • speaker
    the oh we need these two groups
  • speaker
    forming and then there were like
  • speaker
    ad hoc committees
  • speaker
    to kind of shape what it might look
  • speaker
    like. So there was each of them,
  • speaker
    each of them had.
  • speaker
    And so Elizabeth
  • speaker
    was on, on the divorce one.
  • speaker
    And, and there were
  • speaker
    several of us who were on the
  • speaker
    on a support group suggestion.
  • speaker
    So but and fortunately, Pat
  • speaker
    Youngdahl, Pat was
  • speaker
    the, helping to
  • speaker
    help us to put our thoughts
  • speaker
    together.
  • speaker
    So we put this thing, this, this
  • speaker
    piece together. So we had an ad hoc
  • speaker
    group that was meeting
  • speaker
    to form.
  • speaker
    No longer in the closet
  • speaker
    to the congregation.
  • speaker
    Well, we weren't formally recognized
  • speaker
    as but but.
  • speaker
    Once the support.
  • speaker
    Congregation knew there was a
  • speaker
    support.
  • speaker
    No they knew that there was an
  • speaker
    ad hoc committee to form the support
  • speaker
    group.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    The problem was that when it got to
  • speaker
    session we actually had, we'd wrote
  • speaker
    it up and,
  • speaker
    and then there
  • speaker
    was a big debate on session,
  • speaker
    remember about
  • speaker
    is it going to support I don't
  • speaker
    know if I like the word support.
  • speaker
    Are we are we giving approval
  • speaker
    for homosexuality by
  • speaker
    using the word support?
  • speaker
    Why don't we call it discussion
  • speaker
    group?
  • speaker
    And that was before me.
  • speaker
    So that was.
  • speaker
    The was before you?
  • speaker
    Can you can you imagine?
  • speaker
    Well, so one of
  • speaker
    the things, you know, so all this is
  • speaker
    this roller coaster ride that we go
  • speaker
    through. Thank goodness we had
  • speaker
    a way for people to be who were
  • speaker
    who were being objectified
  • speaker
    or being, you know, impacted by it,
  • speaker
    like myself and others.
  • speaker
    But it was to
  • speaker
    have this discussion and
  • speaker
    then have pastoral leadership
  • speaker
    to help us, so Pat
  • speaker
    in her wisdom.
  • speaker
    Absolutely, as a very young pastor.
  • speaker
    First pastorate right?
  • speaker
    Says.
  • speaker
    Absolutely wonderful.
  • speaker
    She was really, really good.
  • speaker
    She said, well, you know, we're
  • speaker
    trying to encourage people into
  • speaker
    to live into their innate goodness.
  • speaker
    But and and
  • speaker
    she said.
  • speaker
    There are a lot of different
  • speaker
    dynamics. But you know what really
  • speaker
    I find works in this congregation.
  • speaker
    What what what? Because
  • speaker
    I was getting upset, you know,
  • speaker
    that we weren't things weren't moving
  • speaker
    they weren't going fast enough, it's
  • speaker
    like. Winsome, winsome, if we could be So
  • speaker
    it's just the
  • speaker
    way you engage.
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    Humble, yes.
  • speaker
    The humble.
  • speaker
    It's not.
  • speaker
    We're not taking over.
  • speaker
    Not taking over.
  • speaker
    Right. Because there was also.
  • speaker
    Oh, you're going to form a group.
  • speaker
    Oh. So then they approved.
  • speaker
    They finally did approve with our
  • speaker
    winsomeness.
  • speaker
    They approved the word
  • speaker
    using the word support, but
  • speaker
    we couldn't advertise outside
  • speaker
    the congregation because
  • speaker
    we would be inundated with
  • speaker
    gay people coming over from Park
  • speaker
    Avenue, coming into the church,
  • speaker
    heavens we might actually have a
  • speaker
    very successful evangelism program,
  • speaker
    but, you know.
  • speaker
    Heavens.
  • speaker
    Heavens, heavens to Betsy.
  • speaker
    But so
  • speaker
    so we so we
  • speaker
    remember that whole debate.
  • speaker
    And this is, I think, was very
  • speaker
    helpful to me. Another piece of
  • speaker
    wisdom from Pat,
  • speaker
    I said if we
  • speaker
    first of all the
  • speaker
    debate was shall we take
  • speaker
    this to session then
  • speaker
    for them to decide?
  • speaker
    Because if we do that, then
  • speaker
    we're giving up.
  • speaker
    What if they say, no?
  • speaker
    No, you're not going to have a
  • speaker
    support group.
  • speaker
    Then what?
  • speaker
    And then Pat
  • speaker
    thinks about it and she says,
  • speaker
    Oh, no, we
  • speaker
    are going to have a support group.
  • speaker
    The question is whether or not
  • speaker
    it's going to be formally
  • speaker
    recognized by
  • speaker
    the leadership of the congregation,
  • speaker
    which would then allow us to
  • speaker
    publicly advertise
  • speaker
    it within the
  • speaker
    congregation newsletter and so
  • speaker
    forth, which I thought,
  • speaker
    you know, she said,
  • speaker
    this is where the feminist thinking
  • speaker
    comes in.
  • speaker
    Never give up the power,
  • speaker
    you know.
  • speaker
    And so I
  • speaker
    that was so reassuring
  • speaker
    the learnings, you know, one winsome
  • speaker
    miss and the other is
  • speaker
    as it's like you
  • speaker
    take the high road, I'll take the
  • speaker
    low road, but then we'll get there.
  • speaker
    We'll both get there. Right?
  • speaker
    I think a lot of us were delighted
  • speaker
    that session was able to pass
  • speaker
    a More Light statement and declare
  • speaker
    ourselves as a member congregation
  • speaker
    of the More Light movement and
  • speaker
    immediately, rather, rather
  • speaker
    promptly within the presbytery, in
  • speaker
    contrast to the other congregations
  • speaker
    who had been there, done
  • speaker
    that for several years.
  • speaker
    Third was immediately seen as
  • speaker
    a renegade, rogue
  • speaker
    outlier and some
  • speaker
    of the more
  • speaker
    conservative churches.
  • speaker
    I think I can use that term at this
  • speaker
    point, were very
  • speaker
    unhappy because they saw
  • speaker
    Third Church as taking a
  • speaker
    leadership role in the presbytery,
  • speaker
    then as the largest church,
  • speaker
    we had a significantly
  • speaker
    large membership at that time
  • speaker
    and they felt that this was going to
  • speaker
    be a run away and their feelings
  • speaker
    were just being run over.
  • speaker
    And they also felt that this was
  • speaker
    in contrast to their
  • speaker
    understanding of the definitive
  • speaker
    guidance and
  • speaker
    Jesus and the Bible and
  • speaker
    felt rather quickly that it was
  • speaker
    time to stop this from happening
  • speaker
    and going any further.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    I, I believe it was one
  • speaker
    church in particular and one
  • speaker
    pastor who brought
  • speaker
    an action to presbytery.
  • speaker
    And maybe you guys will remember that.
  • speaker
    Well, actually, there were several
  • speaker
    churches.
  • speaker
    Several jumped on.
  • speaker
    And they tried to
  • speaker
    they tried initially to
  • speaker
    talk us out. They thought our More
  • speaker
    Light statement and all the
  • speaker
    background material
  • speaker
    that we said that we were going to
  • speaker
    ordain, even though the definitive
  • speaker
    guidance was there that we were
  • speaker
    going to ordain.
  • speaker
    And so we had a discussion.
  • speaker
    It was in this room, and members
  • speaker
    of the three or four
  • speaker
    churches
  • speaker
    came here was when
  • speaker
    Wilson Kilgore was
  • speaker
    an interim. So we were
  • speaker
    a little bit vulnerable because we
  • speaker
    were had an interim and they were
  • speaker
    going to talk us out of
  • speaker
    rescinding our More Light statement.
  • speaker
    And I remember and Pat Youngdahl
  • speaker
    was still here, so she was also
  • speaker
    here. But
  • speaker
    and I remember we talked for
  • speaker
    a long time and
  • speaker
    everybody said what they were
  • speaker
    thinking about it.
  • speaker
    And there were some just terrible
  • speaker
    things that were said about.
  • speaker
    Our church.
  • speaker
    Our church, and about.
  • speaker
    Us.
  • speaker
    Gay people in general and
  • speaker
    how disruptive
  • speaker
    that population could be.
  • speaker
    I remember going and there was no
  • speaker
    resolution.
  • speaker
    I remember going out here feeling
  • speaker
    physically sick.
  • speaker
    I don't think I've ever felt that
  • speaker
    way before or since.
  • speaker
    And so it was after that meeting
  • speaker
    that then these churches put a
  • speaker
    remedial case on us.
  • speaker
    And yeah, that was in probably
  • speaker
    80.
  • speaker
    It was pretty.
  • speaker
    Promptly.
  • speaker
    It was pretty quickly because we
  • speaker
    passed this in 87.
  • speaker
    And I was still in session and I was
  • speaker
    on the committee of three that
  • speaker
    then supported our case.
  • speaker
    And there were two attorneys that
  • speaker
    were members of Session and
  • speaker
    myself and I joke
  • speaker
    now that I was the person to change
  • speaker
    their language into plain
  • speaker
    language, because this is not a
  • speaker
    court of law in
  • speaker
    the state, county or federal
  • speaker
    government. This is among people
  • speaker
    that are like ourselves.
  • speaker
    And so
  • speaker
    we.
  • speaker
    And the attorneys
  • speaker
    took all of the minutes that we had
  • speaker
    from all of our meetings that we'd
  • speaker
    had for the last three or four
  • speaker
    years, and looked
  • speaker
    over them, made copies of them and
  • speaker
    looked over them, trying to
  • speaker
    make the case
  • speaker
    against the remedial case, just
  • speaker
    saying that, no, these people were
  • speaker
    necessary planning to ordain.
  • speaker
    They were just saying that every.
  • speaker
    In fact or statement did not say
  • speaker
    that. It said that there would not
  • speaker
    be a barrier right to full
  • speaker
    participation.
  • speaker
    And that was one of the things that
  • speaker
    I made sure when we
  • speaker
    wrote the statement that there were
  • speaker
    not inflammatory remarks.
  • speaker
    It left it open and affirming
  • speaker
    was the point that we tried
  • speaker
    to come to.
  • speaker
    And so I think the statement was
  • speaker
    entirely defensible.
  • speaker
    And and it proved to
  • speaker
    be so.
  • speaker
    Well and and it was and it was
  • speaker
    the foundation part of
  • speaker
    the foundation
  • speaker
    really is as one of the
  • speaker
    denominational foundations, which is
  • speaker
    God alone is lord
  • speaker
    of the conscience.
  • speaker
    And so this is a statement of
  • speaker
    conscience, and
  • speaker
    that cannot be litigated.
  • speaker
    And the other thing was
  • speaker
    that I think it was right around
  • speaker
    that time
  • speaker
    when it was when the
  • speaker
    after the the
  • speaker
    our the language of definitive
  • speaker
    guidance was through the northern
  • speaker
    stream of the Presbyterian Church.
  • speaker
    And having grown up in the southern
  • speaker
    stream and being a youth
  • speaker
    youth advisory delegate when they
  • speaker
    met in Tuscaloosa in the
  • speaker
    mid-seventies,
  • speaker
    it was very clear,
  • speaker
    you know, from this whole history in
  • speaker
    the Southern Church of State's
  • speaker
    Rights, if you will.
  • speaker
    You know, that whole language that
  • speaker
    the what the statements
  • speaker
    from the Assembly are
  • speaker
    is guidance,
  • speaker
    but it's not constitutional
  • speaker
    guidance that has no legal
  • speaker
    but it's more of
  • speaker
    it's guidance.
  • speaker
    And so it's only when the
  • speaker
    actual constitution itself
  • speaker
    is changed, the Book of Order
  • speaker
    is changed.
  • speaker
    And even decisions of the PJs
  • speaker
    Permanent Judicial Commission
  • speaker
    doesn't change the Book of Order,
  • speaker
    the Book of Order had to be
  • speaker
    deliberately changed.
  • speaker
    So at the time when
  • speaker
    there were requests for
  • speaker
    like Presbytery of New York City
  • speaker
    and other presbyteries
  • speaker
    asking for guidance
  • speaker
    in the Northern Church,
  • speaker
    it was interpreted differently
  • speaker
    because the church was much more
  • speaker
    hierarchical in the northern stream
  • speaker
    than in the southern stream.
  • speaker
    That's very interesting.
  • speaker
    Which is an interesting, interesting
  • speaker
    nuance.
  • speaker
    So and that was brought into
  • speaker
    that whole conscience
  • speaker
    clause, if you will,
  • speaker
    commitment on the part of the
  • speaker
    tradition, on the part of the
  • speaker
    denomination is what
  • speaker
    won the day.
  • speaker
    One thing that I remember vividly is
  • speaker
    that as a part
  • speaker
    of our working through this
  • speaker
    issue in presbytery, our
  • speaker
    session agreed and wanted
  • speaker
    to meet with the sessions of the
  • speaker
    other churches.
  • speaker
    It turned out there were three at
  • speaker
    least that were
  • speaker
    wanting to jump on to this,
  • speaker
    and I
  • speaker
    only remember one of the church's
  • speaker
    sessions willing to meet with us.
  • speaker
    And again, Pat Youngdahl, I
  • speaker
    remember this vividly led the way
  • speaker
    and helped us get ready
  • speaker
    to meet with this happened
  • speaker
    to be Brighton Presbyterian Church's
  • speaker
    session and
  • speaker
    she knew that we were
  • speaker
    that we were going to disagree
  • speaker
    and that we were not going to come
  • speaker
    out of there with a single positive
  • speaker
    way to go between the two groups.
  • speaker
    She knew that the best
  • speaker
    we could do was listen with
  • speaker
    our hearts and be open
  • speaker
    to what we were hearing and
  • speaker
    try to,
  • speaker
    if possible, help them listen
  • speaker
    and be open.
  • speaker
    But she also was very clear
  • speaker
    that it was up
  • speaker
    to us to be open and
  • speaker
    to listen.
  • speaker
    And I'll just never forget
  • speaker
    her leadership on that and how
  • speaker
    important and critical it was and
  • speaker
    how that helped us get through that
  • speaker
    meeting, because there were terrible
  • speaker
    things said there as well.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    Was that that group that we had
  • speaker
    over Twelve Corners Presbyterian
  • speaker
    Church, we had several tables.
  • speaker
    I remember one of those discussions,
  • speaker
    another one.
  • speaker
    We got in a small group of groups
  • speaker
    with two sessions members
  • speaker
    from one church and two from another
  • speaker
    and and
  • speaker
    had a little bit of a facilitated
  • speaker
    guide to discuss things.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    I think we came out
  • speaker
    and my impression is that we came
  • speaker
    out feeling even more strongly that
  • speaker
    this had to happen and go forward
  • speaker
    and.
  • speaker
    That we had done the right thing.
  • speaker
    And that we had done the right thing
  • speaker
    in every case.
  • speaker
    And I do remember some
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    Starting to turn the corner from the
  • speaker
    other churches.
  • speaker
    I think the dialog
  • speaker
    was entirely useful and I think that
  • speaker
    was Pat.
  • speaker
    I believe that was Pat helping
  • speaker
    us to have that dialog and providing
  • speaker
    that leadership because we didn't
  • speaker
    even have to go do that.
  • speaker
    There was no call to do that.
  • speaker
    And we wanted to we wanted
  • speaker
    to try and peacefully
  • speaker
    have an open dialog and move forward
  • speaker
    together.
  • speaker
    And so.
  • speaker
    So it's 88.
  • speaker
    The Presbytery PJC found
  • speaker
    no illegality to Third Church's
  • speaker
    More Light statement, and then in
  • speaker
    89, the Synod found no illegality.
  • speaker
    And and then in
  • speaker
    91, we helped organize
  • speaker
    a More Light conference here.
  • speaker
    The More Light national organization
  • speaker
    was growing a little bit, and
  • speaker
    so we
  • speaker
    organized, along with
  • speaker
    Ginnie Davidson and Downtown Church.
  • speaker
    There was a lot of collaboration
  • speaker
    with our churches here.
  • speaker
    Calvary St. Andrews was very much a part of that.
  • speaker
    Rochester. Yeah.
  • speaker
    And this national conference
  • speaker
    and I don't know, we got 100
  • speaker
    and so people at that one.
  • speaker
    Probably the most it was most at
  • speaker
    that time I think.
  • speaker
    I think Third Church was maybe the
  • speaker
    35th.
  • speaker
    I don't remember.
  • speaker
    More Light Church, but we were the
  • speaker
    largest one and Genesee
  • speaker
    Valley Presbytery had five,
  • speaker
    five More Light churches, which is
  • speaker
    more, more than any presbytery in
  • speaker
    the country. Which at the time
  • speaker
    which was, which was also really
  • speaker
    interesting. So there was
  • speaker
    a curiosity about the area, well
  • speaker
    how does this.
  • speaker
    What's going on up there?
  • speaker
    And how does this what's going on up
  • speaker
    there? So there.
  • speaker
    So I think the
  • speaker
    the year the first first
  • speaker
    More Light conference or the second
  • speaker
    one that we that we organized
  • speaker
    in Genesee Valley.
  • speaker
    It like, doubled
  • speaker
    the number of people that came to
  • speaker
    the conference than from the
  • speaker
    year prior but it was
  • speaker
    it was.
  • speaker
    1996 was the
  • speaker
    next one we hosted in 96.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Now when, when were you
  • speaker
    ordained.
  • speaker
    Do you remember what year?
  • speaker
    Well, I know I went through
  • speaker
    with all the different other
  • speaker
    ordinations. I went well, I went
  • speaker
    through a leadership piece.
  • speaker
    I went to first on trustees.
  • speaker
    But when were you ordained to
  • speaker
    session?
  • speaker
    It was on two terms on trustees.
  • speaker
    So I think it's
  • speaker
    a three year term. So it was
  • speaker
    it was in the nineties.
  • speaker
    It was in the nineties.
  • speaker
    It was before
  • speaker
    the.
  • speaker
    I was just I was still on trustees,
  • speaker
    in fact I was counting.
  • speaker
    I was counting upstairs.
  • speaker
    There were during the session during
  • speaker
    the during the congregational vote.
  • speaker
    But it was before
  • speaker
    the National Church actually
  • speaker
    voted to
  • speaker
    rescind all this language in its
  • speaker
    Book of Order. So what we
  • speaker
    were going on was
  • speaker
    that the session had said that they
  • speaker
    would not
  • speaker
    the questions that they would ask
  • speaker
    somebody to be ordained are the
  • speaker
    normal ordination questions.
  • speaker
    And they would also
  • speaker
    we had
  • speaker
    a review process, a training process
  • speaker
    to make sure that people that were
  • speaker
    nominated and elected
  • speaker
    were fit to be
  • speaker
    on on session, you know, they're of
  • speaker
    sound mind and body and such.
  • speaker
    But we did ordain before
  • speaker
    all the Book of Order was
  • speaker
    was changed because we were going
  • speaker
    with our More Light statement to say
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    I wish I had our More Light
  • speaker
    statement here, but
  • speaker
    we would choose,
  • speaker
    you know, we would not discriminate.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Were there cases brought against you
  • speaker
    for ordaining?
  • speaker
    No. No, because.
  • speaker
    They had given up at the Synod level
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    both cases were unanimous
  • speaker
    at that point and I
  • speaker
    think they understood the futility
  • speaker
    of that at that time.
  • speaker
    Well, so.
  • speaker
    And it wasn't necessarily that
  • speaker
    anybody was out.
  • speaker
    I mean, nobody was hiding.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    And we also weren't purposefully
  • speaker
    looking.
  • speaker
    We were choosing the the best
  • speaker
    people.
  • speaker
    We were following our conscience
  • speaker
    and our statement and not
  • speaker
    having
  • speaker
    human condition be a barrier.
  • speaker
    Somewhere around that time.
  • speaker
    And it may have happened also at
  • speaker
    Synod. But like every
  • speaker
    I'll make this statement about our
  • speaker
    presbytery, this every
  • speaker
    opportunity this presbytery has had
  • speaker
    to formally
  • speaker
    consider
  • speaker
    an inclusive path
  • speaker
    or a,
  • speaker
    you know, hold it, hold it kind of a
  • speaker
    pat.
  • speaker
    They've always taken
  • speaker
    the high road, taken the inclusive
  • speaker
    path and somewhat to
  • speaker
    the point that so when the
  • speaker
    case was brought against Janie
  • speaker
    Spahr,
  • speaker
    the call was affirmed.
  • speaker
    It was challenged.
  • speaker
    The next presbytery meeting, the
  • speaker
    call was reaffirmed.
  • speaker
    Then it went to synod.
  • speaker
    Synod approved it, approved
  • speaker
    the action of the presbytery.
  • speaker
    That's challenged.
  • speaker
    Then it goes to General Assembly.
  • speaker
    And that's that's when it changed.
  • speaker
    Then it gets sent back and then
  • speaker
    then they work through it and there
  • speaker
    have recordings of that.
  • speaker
    But but this synod
  • speaker
    also this is a little known fact.
  • speaker
    The synod voted to
  • speaker
    become a More Light synod
  • speaker
    now, and
  • speaker
    that was some of the same folks.
  • speaker
    Bruce Billman.
  • speaker
    I'm not surprised, but I did not
  • speaker
    know that.
  • speaker
    Margaret Stoltman, Lily Jules,
  • speaker
    you know, and Kay Wroblewski,
  • speaker
    there's a little merry band and they
  • speaker
    would just do their knitting and,
  • speaker
    you know, and, and organize women
  • speaker
    at the synod.
  • speaker
    And Bruce would pal along.
  • speaker
    And, you know, Bruce is really cool.
  • speaker
    Have you met Bruce?
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    Bruce is Bruce is the one that
  • speaker
    came out to Ginnie Davidson and
  • speaker
    is the reason that that's how she
  • speaker
    began her journey.
  • speaker
    Dear family friend,
  • speaker
    great guy.
  • speaker
    But
  • speaker
    synod became a More Light Synod.
  • speaker
    Now the next the following is I
  • speaker
    think they were actually had made
  • speaker
    that statement of inclusion
  • speaker
    when all this other stuff was going
  • speaker
    up. So you've
  • speaker
    got to go through several
  • speaker
    judicatories before you get
  • speaker
    an anit-inclusion
  • speaker
    mindset.
  • speaker
    You know.
  • speaker
    At that time.
  • speaker
    At that time, it was really
  • speaker
    remarkable.
  • speaker
    But I think it's really driven by
  • speaker
    the history of this area
  • speaker
    on human concern for human
  • speaker
    the human condition.
  • speaker
    Susan B. Anthony, women's rights,
  • speaker
    the abolitionists.
  • speaker
    Welcoming refugees.
  • speaker
    Long, long history.
  • speaker
    Long history of that.
  • speaker
    Long history and continues.
  • speaker
    United Nations.
  • speaker
    You know, we have our little model
  • speaker
    in Rochester UN,
  • speaker
    you know, here and so forth.
  • speaker
    Now, do we want to bring up the
  • speaker
    Boy Scouts? We have a Boy Scout
  • speaker
    troop that has met in this
  • speaker
    church for over
  • speaker
    100 years.
  • speaker
    For 100 years.
  • speaker
    And
  • speaker
    there was a doctor in
  • speaker
    our congregation who was John
  • speaker
    Morton and another doctor, Dr.
  • speaker
    Stewart, who were both Boy
  • speaker
    Scouts when they were young and
  • speaker
    leaders and.
  • speaker
    Became Eagle.
  • speaker
    Yeah, became Eagle.
  • speaker
    And but they were very disturbed
  • speaker
    that the national Boy Scout
  • speaker
    organization and
  • speaker
    this was in 2000.
  • speaker
    John and
  • speaker
    and Jim Stewart
  • speaker
    started working with our
  • speaker
    Boy Scout troop here and then the
  • speaker
    council here
  • speaker
    and writing letters
  • speaker
    and saying that,
  • speaker
    I don't know, they hope that they
  • speaker
    would
  • speaker
    be open to
  • speaker
    welcoming gay Boy Scouts and
  • speaker
    leaders and
  • speaker
    knowing the national
  • speaker
    policy.
  • speaker
    And so we had a good you know, and
  • speaker
    there was thought, well, if they
  • speaker
    don't, do we ask the Boy Scouts
  • speaker
    to leave? But is that the right
  • speaker
    thing to do?
  • speaker
    And I think really
  • speaker
    what we ended up with was
  • speaker
    that the troop really
  • speaker
    didn't say that they'd come right
  • speaker
    out and say that they would
  • speaker
    go against national policy,
  • speaker
    but we agreed that we would keep
  • speaker
    in dialog, and I think that's
  • speaker
    sort of the way we ended up.
  • speaker
    Don't you remember that, is that
  • speaker
    what you remember?
  • speaker
    Yes. And then what was happening
  • speaker
    concurrently with all that, it was
  • speaker
    at the council level.
  • speaker
    There was the the gay alliance.
  • speaker
    There was a a group that we
  • speaker
    that I ended up getting involved
  • speaker
    because the council
  • speaker
    offices were diagonally just.
  • speaker
    Across the street.
  • speaker
    Not even a block away.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Almost literally across the street.
  • speaker
    And at at Christmas time, we had the
  • speaker
    Christmas tree sales for the Boy
  • speaker
    Scouts. And it's like and I
  • speaker
    envisioned oh gosh.
  • speaker
    Here we are More Light church, you
  • speaker
    know, saying we're welcoming.
  • speaker
    And then you got the Boy Scouts,
  • speaker
    you know, selling Christmas trees
  • speaker
    and we're going to have protests
  • speaker
    in front of the church. So I said,
  • speaker
    Oh, my gosh. So there was this group
  • speaker
    starting with the gay alliance.
  • speaker
    And I said, I got to get involved.
  • speaker
    So I did. And I said, I'll be the
  • speaker
    secretary.
  • speaker
    And so that's we called it the
  • speaker
    Coalition to Save Scouting.
  • speaker
    What was very interesting in this
  • speaker
    whole process was learning
  • speaker
    that
  • speaker
    first of all we had some leadership
  • speaker
    in the congregation involved.
  • speaker
    The council is led by volunteers
  • speaker
    from the community and a member of
  • speaker
    our church was the chairperson
  • speaker
    slash president of the council.
  • speaker
    Was that Frank Crego?
  • speaker
    Frank Crego at that time.
  • speaker
    Down the street.
  • speaker
    They
  • speaker
    moved to denounce the
  • speaker
    national policy.
  • speaker
    And I was a Boy Scout leader at that
  • speaker
    time. I continue today.
  • speaker
    So I always figure that it's
  • speaker
    better to stay with the group and
  • speaker
    try to change rather than
  • speaker
    leave them.
  • speaker
    So they've been
  • speaker
    coming right along and so.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    we had a little meeting.
  • speaker
    So Frank Frank lived
  • speaker
    in and had been in our home. My
  • speaker
    partner and I, we lived on
  • speaker
    Park Avenue area.
  • speaker
    And then Frank and
  • speaker
    Susan lived, you know, lived
  • speaker
    a block away.
  • speaker
    And so we had
  • speaker
    a small meeting around our
  • speaker
    dinner table and
  • speaker
    just fairly early
  • speaker
    on.
  • speaker
    And one of the questions that came
  • speaker
    up was,
  • speaker
    well, what is your goal?
  • speaker
    The council the council
  • speaker
    members asking some of the members
  • speaker
    of the gay community, what is your
  • speaker
    goal? Is it is it adult
  • speaker
    leadership, employment,
  • speaker
    you know, leaders?
  • speaker
    And we said no.
  • speaker
    So the real the real fundamental
  • speaker
    concern is that
  • speaker
    boys, as they grow
  • speaker
    up, affirm the values
  • speaker
    of what we see as the values of
  • speaker
    scouting. In other words,
  • speaker
    helping those that need help,
  • speaker
    fighting bullying in
  • speaker
    schools and society
  • speaker
    and finding helpful leadership,
  • speaker
    you know.
  • speaker
    In mind, body and spirit.
  • speaker
    And so and so
  • speaker
    there was there was a retired Kodak
  • speaker
    executive on the council, he
  • speaker
    says, we can work
  • speaker
    with that.
  • speaker
    And and then what part
  • speaker
    of what then became articulated in
  • speaker
    the council was that,
  • speaker
    you know, a basic tenet of council
  • speaker
    is that, you know, when you when
  • speaker
    you're when you're going to organize
  • speaker
    a game,
  • speaker
    everybody gets to play.
  • speaker
    It's not some and some.
  • speaker
    And the goal is not who wins
  • speaker
    and who loses, but everybody
  • speaker
    gets to play.
  • speaker
    So how do we get to how do we
  • speaker
    get to that?
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    then then also with people like
  • speaker
    Dr. Stewart and Dr. Morton, I mean,
  • speaker
    they were as Eagle Scouts doing
  • speaker
    speak outs, essays on, you
  • speaker
    know, in the newspaper.
  • speaker
    Writing letters to the editor.
  • speaker
    Writing letters to the editor, etc.,
  • speaker
    you know, and then affirming those
  • speaker
    kind of basic core values of
  • speaker
    scouting.
  • speaker
    And ultimately then the leadership
  • speaker
    of the council,
  • speaker
    working with other councils around
  • speaker
    the country, progressive councils
  • speaker
    to say that.
  • speaker
    And they and they told National,
  • speaker
    if we cannot find a way
  • speaker
    forward that is inclusive,
  • speaker
    we will not survive
  • speaker
    in this part of
  • speaker
    the country
  • speaker
    because that is against
  • speaker
    the values of the community.
  • speaker
    So the whole notion the legacy
  • speaker
    then of women's
  • speaker
    rights movement, you know,
  • speaker
    liberation from slavery,
  • speaker
    you know, and all of that
  • speaker
    came forward in a very tangible
  • speaker
    way.
  • speaker
    It's a part of the legacy of the
  • speaker
    community.
  • speaker
    So our
  • speaker
    committee
  • speaker
    had several participants
  • speaker
    nationally.
  • speaker
    Ralph was on the More Light
  • speaker
    Presbyterians board for a long time.
  • speaker
    A couple of people were on the That
  • speaker
    All May Freely Serve board.
  • speaker
    Of course we know John Wilkinson was
  • speaker
    on the Covenant Network in the
  • speaker
    beginning of that.
  • speaker
    Ralph went to G.A.
  • speaker
    and I went to G.A. as overture
  • speaker
    advocates a couple of times.
  • speaker
    I have to show you my shirt.
  • speaker
    On the various
  • speaker
    areas.
  • speaker
    This is the shirt, one of the shirts
  • speaker
    from General Assembly from the
  • speaker
    eighties.
  • speaker
    And it was and it was created
  • speaker
    by the spouse of a presbytery
  • speaker
    executive, so.
  • speaker
    Oh, that's right.
  • speaker
    Presbyterians do it decently and in
  • speaker
    order.
  • speaker
    Which was scandalous in the
  • speaker
    eighties, let me tell you.
  • speaker
    It was very scandalous, certainly.
  • speaker
    That's very neat.
  • speaker
    And and and we wrote overtures
  • speaker
    and we concurred with other
  • speaker
    overtures. So there every
  • speaker
    opportunity we had.
  • speaker
    And Ralph was the one that kept
  • speaker
    track of what was happening in
  • speaker
    General Assembly in general.
  • speaker
    And he'd say in the fall, okay,
  • speaker
    now we've got to get this thing
  • speaker
    together because we've got to have
  • speaker
    it by February or March
  • speaker
    and got to be through Presbytery.
  • speaker
    So let's work backwards and let's
  • speaker
    write something or let's take one.
  • speaker
    And so, you know, Amendment
  • speaker
    B or against Amendment B, Amendment A, delete Book of Order G6.0106b
  • speaker
    or interpretation
  • speaker
    every step of the way Third Church
  • speaker
    had something to say about these,
  • speaker
    and we were instrumental
  • speaker
    in putting
  • speaker
    bringing them to Presbytery.
  • speaker
    And as Ralph said that presbytery
  • speaker
    even though we were concerned at
  • speaker
    times, we did some
  • speaker
    telephone calling, making sure
  • speaker
    people were going to come to
  • speaker
    presbytery meeting on the day the
  • speaker
    vote came.
  • speaker
    Presbytery voted
  • speaker
    in the inclusive way every
  • speaker
    time we were there.
  • speaker
    But yeah so
  • speaker
    I remember talking in
  • speaker
    2008
  • speaker
    in San Jose
  • speaker
    and
  • speaker
    it was to the definitive guidance
  • speaker
    to get rid of that and to.
  • speaker
    But it never got to the floor of
  • speaker
    presbytery on that one.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    And I went back in 2012
  • speaker
    and talked on marriage equality.
  • speaker
    So once we got ordination
  • speaker
    passed, then we started working
  • speaker
    with
  • speaker
    marriage equality.
  • speaker
    And we really worked with all
  • speaker
    of the churches in in New
  • speaker
    York State
  • speaker
    and we've worked with churches in
  • speaker
    Rochester.
  • speaker
    So all of these efforts
  • speaker
    were collaborative,
  • speaker
    actually.
  • speaker
    Yeah. And then in terms
  • speaker
    of marriage, then we also
  • speaker
    collaborated with the Empire State
  • speaker
    Pride Agenda, which is the New York
  • speaker
    State LGBT
  • speaker
    advocacy, and they had a program
  • speaker
    called Pride in the
  • speaker
    Pulpit.
  • speaker
    So there was a pride in my
  • speaker
    workplace, pride in my union,
  • speaker
    forgot the others. But then pride in
  • speaker
    the pride in the pulpit was the one
  • speaker
    that we were really working on.
  • speaker
    And what was very interesting was
  • speaker
    that Interfaith Advocates
  • speaker
    for LGBT people, which
  • speaker
    was an organization
  • speaker
    that Dr. Stewart was leading,
  • speaker
    provided leadership for at one
  • speaker
    point,
  • speaker
    and then I did at one point
  • speaker
    helped to
  • speaker
    advocate that, hey, we need we need
  • speaker
    to do it. We need to do some
  • speaker
    education and do some ecumenical
  • speaker
    gathering of faith leaders
  • speaker
    to advocate for marriage equality
  • speaker
    in New York state.
  • speaker
    So we had this wonderful
  • speaker
    divinity school, Colgate Rochester
  • speaker
    Crozer Divinity School, where
  • speaker
    J. C. Wynn had been in 1970,
  • speaker
    you know, and then all these
  • speaker
    progressive
  • speaker
    professors and so
  • speaker
    forth was the host
  • speaker
    side for the very first
  • speaker
    marriage equality training
  • speaker
    for the Pride in the Pulpit
  • speaker
    program to advocate for marriage
  • speaker
    equality.
  • speaker
    And we had
  • speaker
    people from especially from New York
  • speaker
    City we were like absolutely
  • speaker
    astounded that we had like 75
  • speaker
    faith leaders
  • speaker
    show up on a Saturday morning
  • speaker
    to do this education.
  • speaker
    And it was it was literally across
  • speaker
    the board in terms of in terms
  • speaker
    of faith groups involved.
  • speaker
    Really, we are very interesting.
  • speaker
    So
  • speaker
    the other the other topic in general
  • speaker
    was the transgender issue, which is
  • speaker
    which we are deeply involved
  • speaker
    in as a congregation.
  • speaker
    Maybe you want to speak to that and
  • speaker
    then that might be a good place
  • speaker
    to end.
  • speaker
    Um.
  • speaker
    Yeah, I think, um,
  • speaker
    I mean, we certainly we're
  • speaker
    GENDA, which is a New York state
  • speaker
    gender equality bill,
  • speaker
    we worked many years
  • speaker
    and it wasn't until this year
  • speaker
    when we got a Democratic
  • speaker
    Senate in the New York state
  • speaker
    government that that it passed.
  • speaker
    But we kept
  • speaker
    the we, along with
  • speaker
    other churches and other
  • speaker
    organizations, we'd go to Albany,
  • speaker
    lobby day, Ralph,
  • speaker
    organize everybody to go.
  • speaker
    Ralph had such faith that, you know,
  • speaker
    we could just do all of this, this
  • speaker
    and that. We could go
  • speaker
    and make a difference.
  • speaker
    Lifetime.
  • speaker
    I know miracles.
  • speaker
    Make a difference.
  • speaker
    You know, work miracles.
  • speaker
    You really were a miracle worker.
  • speaker
    Um, but so the
  • speaker
    transgender and we've just
  • speaker
    been involved in Transgender
  • speaker
    Day of Remembrance
  • speaker
    and educating our congregation
  • speaker
    on transgender issues.
  • speaker
    And then we're part of, and we've
  • speaker
    been for a couple of decades,
  • speaker
    a lecture series
  • speaker
    that has a divinity school and a
  • speaker
    Baptist church and
  • speaker
    Presbyterian Church is at Fiskville.
  • speaker
    And Ralph's been involved in that
  • speaker
    and we've had a
  • speaker
    couple of transgender speakers
  • speaker
    there.
  • speaker
    And speaking of that lecture group,
  • speaker
    way back when they first got
  • speaker
    started, we were
  • speaker
    we had security, we
  • speaker
    had these lectures. We were afraid
  • speaker
    somebody were going to come in and
  • speaker
    be disruptive.
  • speaker
    And and
  • speaker
    we didn't publicize them
  • speaker
    too too far and
  • speaker
    wide, but we did publicize a little
  • speaker
    bit. And we had security in
  • speaker
    place that if anybody came in, it
  • speaker
    was it was scary.
  • speaker
    It really was.
  • speaker
    And we developed a process
  • speaker
    that, you know, after a while, it's
  • speaker
    going to be a disruption then what
  • speaker
    would we do? How would we respond?
  • speaker
    So we actually, you know, talked
  • speaker
    with a number of key people
  • speaker
    ahead of events, you know,
  • speaker
    so that we would we would start
  • speaker
    clapping, you know, or whatever,
  • speaker
    you know, those kind of responses
  • speaker
    so that the voices and shut
  • speaker
    off microphones, etc., you
  • speaker
    know, it's like, oh, my gosh.
  • speaker
    But it was, you know, there were
  • speaker
    some, you know, we forget.
  • speaker
    But some of those early days were
  • speaker
    scary because the
  • speaker
    vitriol
  • speaker
    was palpable.
  • speaker
    So but now we're
  • speaker
    now we're we're looking at we have
  • speaker
    some we've had
  • speaker
    at least two ongoing,
  • speaker
    you know, the last several
  • speaker
    years, people who are
  • speaker
    who have transitioned, we've had
  • speaker
    members now become
  • speaker
    knowledgeable that there are members
  • speaker
    in their congregation grow who've
  • speaker
    grown up and have transitioned. Oh go ahead.
  • speaker
    So what I was going to say is your
  • speaker
    work.
  • speaker
    I'm the I was not a part
  • speaker
    of the policy work at that point as
  • speaker
    much. I was busy with
  • speaker
    Sunday school and youth leadership,
  • speaker
    etc. And what's
  • speaker
    happened in my view
  • speaker
    is that several families
  • speaker
    in our congregation who've been
  • speaker
    personally touched by transitions
  • speaker
    and transitioning children have been
  • speaker
    fully supported and
  • speaker
    found a loving home, and
  • speaker
    their own gender expression can
  • speaker
    be what's right for
  • speaker
    them and transition
  • speaker
    as they needed to
  • speaker
    to find the right expression.
  • speaker
    And what a wonderful
  • speaker
    thing that your work has done that
  • speaker
    people like that.
  • speaker
    Our families have felt embraced
  • speaker
    by the church and church members
  • speaker
    and they haven't had to hide or
  • speaker
    go away
  • speaker
    or feel excluded,
  • speaker
    but rather feel included.
  • speaker
    So good work.
  • speaker
    Great,
  • speaker
    but then also people, you know
  • speaker
    families joined.
  • speaker
    I know at least three young people
  • speaker
    and people join.
  • speaker
    People in joining.
  • speaker
    Right.
  • speaker
    Who are trans.
  • speaker
    Or just joining because they
  • speaker
    want their children to grow up in
  • speaker
    our congregation.
  • speaker
    Inclusive environment.
  • speaker
    Where you can talk about these
  • speaker
    things.
  • speaker
    And to be fair, we've lost
  • speaker
    congregation members as well.
  • speaker
    So as a result
  • speaker
    of the More Light statement, we lost
  • speaker
    more than one. We lost I know we
  • speaker
    lost the person on session
  • speaker
    who abstained and
  • speaker
    there were others.
  • speaker
    But we also gained.
  • speaker
    Oh yeah there's not an issue of.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    And so my real quick was
  • speaker
    just to thank you for your work
  • speaker
    on that because we
  • speaker
    continue to grow as a congregation
  • speaker
    and be a safe place for
  • speaker
    people to come.
  • speaker
    And it's a it's wonderful
  • speaker
    thing we can do that.
  • speaker
    So good job.
  • speaker
    But the work isn't done.
  • speaker
    So I think so.
  • speaker
    Part of our I see as our
  • speaker
    congregation our next next steps
  • speaker
    in addition to really and
  • speaker
    deepening
  • speaker
    transgender is the whole area
  • speaker
    of bisexuality.
  • speaker
    That was another whole topic.
  • speaker
    But but in addition, there are two
  • speaker
    major streams that
  • speaker
    I think we need to somehow
  • speaker
    work on as a congregation.
  • speaker
    Maybe not in the More Light
  • speaker
    Committee but the congregation needs
  • speaker
    to really get specific on and that
  • speaker
    has to do with economics
  • speaker
    you know because we're our
  • speaker
    you know how we welcome
  • speaker
    people of different economic
  • speaker
    backgrounds because this.
  • speaker
    So I was going to say inclusivity
  • speaker
    way beyond that and we still
  • speaker
    have many steps
  • speaker
    to go to be an inclusive
  • speaker
    congregation.
  • speaker
    And also race.
  • speaker
    And also for people with
  • speaker
    disabilities, disabilities,
  • speaker
    we have a hearing-impaired young
  • speaker
    lady that wants to come to church
  • speaker
    here. There is not one church in
  • speaker
    our presbytery that has ASL
  • speaker
    interpretation.
  • speaker
    It's time to step up to the plate
  • speaker
    and welcome fully people who
  • speaker
    need support to be here.
  • speaker
    Well, fortunately there's
  • speaker
    the accessibility.
  • speaker
    So I've been writing them.
  • speaker
    The Accessibility Task Force.
  • speaker
    Task Force.
  • speaker
    We have a task force on that,
  • speaker
    but also I think race.
  • speaker
    Race.
  • speaker
    No question.
  • speaker
    No question.
  • speaker
    We have so much.
  • speaker
    We have work to do.
  • speaker
    And refugees that are different
  • speaker
    kinds of refugees, not just the ones
  • speaker
    that some people find acceptable.
  • speaker
    Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • speaker
    And it was our church that was
  • speaker
    starting back, Lilian Alexander
  • speaker
    back in the fifties, who then
  • speaker
    made it possible for the first
  • speaker
    overture for women to become
  • speaker
    ordained.
  • speaker
    So we're just following in her footsteps.
  • speaker
    So we're just following her steps.
  • speaker
    Yeah. But
  • speaker
    what I was reminded of last,
  • speaker
    the last
  • speaker
    communion
  • speaker
    Jean
  • speaker
    was no it wasn't Jean wasn't
  • speaker
    presiding was, was she presiding at
  • speaker
    the last on?
  • speaker
    But it was is either Jean or it was.
  • speaker
    Well anyway here's the, here's the
  • speaker
    point. The point is it was
  • speaker
    very, very clear and it clearly
  • speaker
    stated this is not
  • speaker
    a Presbyterian table.
  • speaker
    That was Ernest.
  • speaker
    Reverend Krug.
  • speaker
    It was everyone is welcome at this
  • speaker
    table.
  • speaker
    Everyone is welcome.
  • speaker
    I mean, it's very, very clear.
  • speaker
    It's an open table.
  • speaker
    Yes.
  • speaker
    You know, and all all are welcome.
  • speaker
    So that probably to me,
  • speaker
    that just really resonated because
  • speaker
    that's that's who we strive
  • speaker
    to be, you know as a church
  • speaker
    place for everybody is
  • speaker
    welcoming find a place
  • speaker
    of joy of of safety,
  • speaker
    sanctuary.
  • speaker
    But a place where one can
  • speaker
    dream dreams and.
  • speaker
    Feel loved.
  • speaker
    Follow them.
  • speaker
    Understand the love of God as a
  • speaker
    child of God.
  • speaker
    Absolutely.
  • speaker
    Yeah.
  • speaker
    That's a good place to stop.

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