Jack Haberer oral history interview, 2018.

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    This is Elizabeth Wittrig speaking with Jack Haberer on December 6th,
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    2018. Jack, would you like to go ahead and tell us when and where you were born?
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    I was born in Queens, New York,
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    February 16, 1955.
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    And could you talk a little bit about your experiences growing up, what your family dynamics were like?
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    Great. I was born into a Roman Catholic family.
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    Mom was a 100 percent Irish. Dad a 100 percent German
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    and the twain met. But I was the third of four children
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    and when I was born they moved out of New York,
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    out of a tiny apartment, to a New Jersey suburb,
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    and lived in that house all my life
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    and my growing up years until I wed.
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    Third of four kids, the older of two boys.
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    And good ole Roman Catholic kids.
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    Parochial education through second grade then switched over to public school - did all the CCD
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    and all the Catholic education that goes along
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    with that. When I was a teenager I was a successful
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    athlete and a good student and a good musician.
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    So which is actually exactly like my parents both of them were that way.
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    And so I was kind of a chip off the old block.
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    But I was 15, 14 years old,
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    I got kind of turned off to religion
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    and even though I'd been confirmed at age 12 I was like
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    no I'm an atheist now. I just became a too smart for God kind of atheist.
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    And out of that,
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    while having some
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    success in those other areas, I
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    found myself really stressed over some things
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    and friendships
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    and all those kind of things typical of early adolescent kids
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    and it was then that I was exposed to
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    Christianity in a very different brand
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    with the beginnings of what was going to become known as the Jesus movement.
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    Hadn't begun yet.
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    There
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    was a kind of beginning of Christian rock n roll. There wasn't a single Christian rock album out yet
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    but I remember the first one and the second
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    and the third. I committed my life to Christ in
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    the spring of my freshman year. April 20th,
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    April 21st 1970.
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    And I took off like a rocket.
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    I couldn't keep my mouth shut and within six months I'd led a hundred other kids to Christ
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    and then within another six months I started a coffeehouse on Saturday nights
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    with two friends. All of us just now just barely 16
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    or almost 16 and within weeks our attendance was somewhere between 200
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    to 250 kids every Saturday night.
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    We had to pay the church. We were literally we were renting it for 35 dollars a week
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    for that and we had double the attendance they had on Sundays
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    and the Jesus movement just exploded around us.
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    I became also a part of a singing duo Nick
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    and Jack. Nick had the talent
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    but I was a bit more rooted than he was so.
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    So we performed in that coffeehouse
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    and other places around those high school years were just
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    you know explosive. It just was an explosion of
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    Christianity in what we thought of as rediscovering biblical
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    New Testament Christianity that had been lost.
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    We saw ourselves as the great saviors of the church that had lost
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    its way. And in our own humble,
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    humble-proud ways or proudly humble ways.
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    And it was out of that that I sensed a real call to ministry
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    and headed off to Bible college to head that way.
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    So then can you talk some about your experiences in Bible college?
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    In Bible College. The most important ones.
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    I fell in love with the cutest girl on campus
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    and ultimately would marry her after graduation.
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    A year and a half at Elim Bible Institute in Lima New York,
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    about 30 miles south of Rochester
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    and it was very old school Pentecostal
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    but they had this whole wave of Jesus freaks coming in that was in those days.
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    And in fact our class was the largest class the school ever had.
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    Even to this day.
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    We were just in a time of tremendous excitement you just threw yourself
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    entirely into Bible study
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    and into preparing for ministry as a pastor
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    or missionary and it really pushed for global missions.
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    We were always getting altar calls so to speak in chapel services
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    about going to Tanzania
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    or to Kenya or to somewhere else.
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    Where is God calling you. God doesn't need you in America.
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    God needs you somewhere else.
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    But there was a whole lot of it that played on the whole of my Catholic guilt
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    really well. I got stirred by guilt.
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    But then again I also was inspired by the vision
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    and passion of really godly women
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    and men that were faculty
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    and classmates.
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    After about a year and a half I realized that academically it really wasn't a tough enough school so
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    I transferred to a nearby school, Roberts Wesleyan College,
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    where they would accept their credits for transfer
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    and I could earn a degree that was religion
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    and philosophy. And it was very much steeped in the Wesleyan
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    tradition and I got pretty well convinced on Wesleyan theology.
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    In fact would argue hardcore against those Presbyterians that believed in that stupid Calvinism.
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    And in fact even the morning of my wedding day I had a two hour argument
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    with a stranger because I had to stay quiet, away from everybody else that was setting up for the wedding.
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    And we were on that same campus.
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    And so we just argued my Wesleyanism against his Calvinism.
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    I have no idea who it was. I've never talked with him again.
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    But yeah I was pretty well steeped in all of that
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    but it really did very much deepen my faith.
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    And the combination of those two schools equipped me
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    in a lot of great ways. The undergraduate studies truly liberal arts
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    Christian context of Liberal Arts.
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    Discovering that all truth is God's truth wherever it may be found.
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    And that was over against that kind of anti-intellectual,
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    very openly anti-intellectual, mentality at the Bible College that the other college
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    gave me. That part of saying no,
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    head and heart are supposed to go hand in hand, not to mix metaphors,
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    but rather than one against the other.
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    I came out of college
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    with a very very clear call very much still to the kind of the charismatic
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    Jesus movement kind of churches.
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    And even helped start a church in the year after graduating college.
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    And preaching often in there but while working at a Christian bookstore. Then newlyweds.
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    And three years into that someone approached
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    us and said you know have you ever thought of going to seminary? We'd be happy to help you do that.
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    And they sure enough ended up sponsoring us
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    and that little church we started also helped sponsor us.
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    We went to Gordon-Conwell seminary up in Massachusetts.
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    Multidenominational. They said anybody from Anglican to Assemblies of God
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    could be qualified there, but the largest block were Presbyterian USA students.
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    And so I kind of came under their influence
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    and a lot of faculty were PC(USA) as well
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    and I was clearly, I had shifted by then clearly from
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    Wesleyanism to Calvanism,
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    actually before going to seminary, but had enough of the background in all those
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    different fields to be able to really get clear on what became
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    a thoroughgoing reformed construct in my theology.
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    And after graduation was hired to a Presbyterian church staff.
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    It was really a charismatic church that pretended to be Presbyterian
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    but they were officially in a PC(USA) church membership
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    and put me on the path of
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    ordination in a denomination I'd never worshipped in.
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    But it clicked when I was preparing for ordination exams.
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    I was even reading the Book of Order. I had a religious experience.
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    I thought, where have these people been all my life?
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    This is it. This is what works.
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    This is what we're supposed to do.
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    And so I was ordained in 1984.
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    And got very very quickly involved at the Presbytery
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    level and eventually at the national level in PC(USA)
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    and became hard core.
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    You know one of those first generation converts. They tend to be the most passionate.
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    Well I was a passionate Jesus freak in my teenage years.
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    I became a passionate Presbyterian in my 20s
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    and 30s and thereafter.
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    So is that around the time when you kind of became involved in the denomination's fight over LGBTQ Presbyterians?
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    Yes. What happened, and don't misquote me on
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    this one, but in my first solo pastorate,
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    which I was installed in early part of 1984,
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    over ten years there about a half a dozen
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    lesbian or gay persons came out to me in a counseling type of relationship.
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    Totally unrelated to each other. I don't know why that happened per se.
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    There's no reason except for the fact that I did do a lot of pastoral counseling in general.
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    It was a major part of my ministry,
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    more so than typical pastors.
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    And part of it is because I was raised by a psychologist, my mom,
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    and so I had that kind of orientation in the way I was raised.
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    And I also did a lot of study in the field both undergrad
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    and master's level.
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    Half a dozen individuals came out to me in a counseling relationship.
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    And I was dumbfounded.
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    I knew nothing about the lesbian gay experience.
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    It was really a foreign world to me.
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    I was calling my mom and said how do I do this. How do I do this mom.
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    It was hard to do that because I was always too smart to be thinking I needed mom's help
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    but suddenly I totally needed her help.
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    And I basically followed my good training which was heavily
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    Carl Rogers non-directive counseling,
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    unconditional positive regard. "I hear you to be saying in all of this" reflective
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    counseling. And also somewhat influenced by
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    good old classical psychotherapy
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    and Freudian psychology
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    and that got them to talking about their early life experiences.
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    And in these six cases every one of them was
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    a child, an adult survivor of child sex abuse.
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    And I never talked about their present sexuality,
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    but I did get them to talk about those childhood
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    and adolescent experiences.
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    And by a combination of the reflective counseling
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    and a healing prayer kind of a guided imagery of let's see
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    if Jesus can take us back to those experiences
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    and see if he can rewrite the story.
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    Time and again. And actually in one case it wasn't a believer.
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    And so I was actually using almost more of a
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    play acting role,
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    play kind of counseling methodology where he was talking to an empty chair.
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    But in either case helping them, inviting them to see if God
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    can take them back to those experiences in a different way
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    and see if the story comes out in some other point of interpretation.
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    Most of them felt one
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    or another. I am that way because I enjoyed it
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    or I am this way because it was so ugly.
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    And and in every case,
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    and this is really odd because you never hear this in every
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    case, they ultimately came to me at the end of it,
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    most were long term,
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    but every one of them said the weirdest thing is happening I'm finding
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    myself attracted to the opposite sex.
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    And again it was never a project it was never an effort it wasn't you know
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    conversion therapy of that which was a term I hadn't even
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    heard yet. But in their cases
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    they had this kind of change.
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    And so.
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    Coming out of that the PC(USA)
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    created a commissioned committee, a human sexuality committee,
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    I think it was 1988 or 89 that they did so.
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    And they were meeting to talk about how do we reconfigure
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    and understand our human sexuality issues
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    around ordination and ministry and all of that.
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    And they also were doing open gatherings for people to come
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    and speak to them. And they had one in Orlando.
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    I was pastoring an hour east of there in Satellite Beach,
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    Florida. And I made it
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    and they had two minute limits
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    but I took in two minutes.
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    I came to speak with them. And said I did not pretend to be an expert.
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    I didn't say I know what I'm talking about.
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    But this has been my experience as a pastor
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    and that when we look at the matters of human sexuality,
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    what I don't ever hear us talking about is really the power
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    of emotional healing from early life
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    experiences in which one was the victim that created
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    a level of sexual confusion,
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    sexual identity confusion. I don't think I used that term yet because that wasn't in the vogue of conversation,
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    but this is what's happened
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    and I'd like you to just keep this in mind as you move forward.
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    It was obvious that most people in the room did not want to hear what I had to say.
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    But one of the members grabbed me on the way out and said write that up.
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    I need a copy of that. And it was just a single page paper I
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    filled for that amount of time I shared.
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    But then the next General Assembly that was taking up that,
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    which would be in 1991, I shared
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    with my church session about that
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    and I felt that I ought to go there
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    and I don't know what I can do, but I think I ought to be there
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    and maybe share my story.
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    And I know I've been very quiet about my story because I want
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    to protect the confidentiality of those involved. But anyway,
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    I did do that. They blessed me on that.
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    And at that point I began, at that General Assembly,
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    when that particular committee reported its work
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    and then it was defeated by like 95 percent
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    or 98 percent vote.
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    Nevertheless in the middle of that I got to meet a lot of the major players,
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    particularly Presbyterians for Renewal at the time, about
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    how to help with what's going on in the larger church.
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    I do want to say, for clarity quickly: A) For me then,
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    and all through
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    this whole story, I was never anti-gay.
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    It was never a matter of hostility or fear
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    or homophobia, which is a fear more than hatred of,
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    but I'm just not heavily a
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    judgmental kind of person. It's never been about judgment.
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    My real concern was are we doing the best we can
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    with folks who are struggling with the misery of what has
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    been the common witness of gay
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    and lesbian people because if only because they feel like such outsiders
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    and mistreated and hated.
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    Are we are we doing the right thing by not considering
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    the possibility that there's a freedom to possibly come out of that.
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    I had drawn a conclusion that,
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    hey six for six, this must be the answer to all these matters.
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    And in time, ironically Joe Nicolosi,
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    who is the guy the father of transformative kind of counseling,
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    I talked with him just after he had a speaking engagement.
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    He did it at a banquet at General Assembly
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    and I told him of my experience and I asked him is this typical.
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    He said it's common but don't make a rule out of it.
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    I think it's about two thirds of lesbian women have been victimized
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    in their childhood. Probably one third of gay men have been victimized
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    but that means the other half have not, he said so don't make a generalization out of that,
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    it doesn't make, or the statistics that we had at that time.
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    So that kind of backed me away from being the answer man
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    or as if I knew it all or that my one solution explains it all.
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    And I also came to realize that ultimately it's not
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    my, when it comes to policies
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    and positions of the church, the issue is not whether my judgment whether
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    my theory is right
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    or frankly that I'm in a position to make that judgment at all.
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    What I can recognize is that when a person says this is all I've felt.
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    This is all I've wanted. This is all I needed.
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    When I want that partner that's suitably matched to me
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    it always I'm always drawn into a person of the same gender.
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    I can believe that sincerity and genuine insight
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    and genuineness of that.
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    If a person comes to me like those six did originally on their own
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    with a problem and wanting help,
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    hey I'm ready for that.
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    But ironically once I went public in this,
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    those people stopped coming to me because they thought
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    and I mean I had a few that did say to me,
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    Jack you know I would never come to you to talk about my sexuality because I know you're against us.
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    Like no I'm not. But I understand why you interpret me that way because I've been involved in a
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    denominational policy. So actually after having those half a dozen there haven't been any real
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    kinds of counseling in nearly 30 years since then.
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    Or 25 years since then. So anyway so that's how I got into that process.
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    So then mid-90s, can you talk about your role in the Presbyterian Coalition?
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    Yes. What happened in the 1993 General Assembly,
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    I was actually commissioner of the Assembly,
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    and that was the year when there was a new move
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    to do a study on human sexuality
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    and membership and ordination.
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    Those were the three categories to be studied.
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    At that assembly
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    and by the way at that point what had become tenuous
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    was that the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission which had originally
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    had said in 1978 in the northern church,
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    1979 in the southern U.S. church,
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    basically that humans homosexual practice was incompatible
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    with ordination.
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    That kept being challenged in the courts in the church
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    and increasingly those votes within that General Assembly Commission were getting closer
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    and closer. And now you had this sexuality report that comes out
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    and then that was defeated. But they still kept bubbling up.
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    So the 93 Assembly called for a three year study on human sexuality
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    and ordination
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    and membership and ordination.
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    At that point, a group of people called the Genevans
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    and Presbyterians for Renewal. The evangelicals that were the Presbyterians for Renewal,
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    and the more less centrist Southern Presbytery executives
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    that formed the Genevans.
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    They came together. They'd been enemies. They'd been opponents in a lot of cases because the evangelicals
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    were way too far to the right for these others,
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    but somehow they said we need to get this thing done because this is just tearing us up.
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    They formed together a pretty good group called the Presbyterian Coalition
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    for the purpose of helping to facilitate the process
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    but definitely with an eye toward after a three year study.
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    We will say no this is not ok.
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    We will reaffirm the 1978
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    and 79 policy.
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    There were about 60
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    or 70 of them that met once over the next year.
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    I volunteered to one of them that I could write a paper
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    that kind of makes the case why the folks on the left would want to ordain
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    and why the folks in the right want to oppose it
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    and kind of set them against each other
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    and show how the answers to the right are the more correct ones.
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    But in a very methodical sort of way.
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    I wrote that
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    and
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    that got circulated by the Coalition.
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    Years later it was republished by Theology Matters.
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    But at this point, it got circulated by the Coalition and I got invited to go into the Coalition
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    and actually to pitch in for somebody else who couldn't be there.
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    And at that meeting the Coalition is two years into the three.
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    The whole church was two years into the three year study.
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    At that meeting,
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    the person who had been leading it was very very informal.
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    They weren't even incorporated.
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    But they were a force
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    and there were very very influential leaders that made up this group.
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    At that meeting with 60 or 70 there, it was moderated by John Hoffman
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    pastor of Newport Beach in California and Clayton
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    Bell pastor of Highland Park in Dallas.
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    We were meeting in Dallas. At the end of that meeting,
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    the person that had been leading it said I can't do it anymore I'm too busy.
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    And so and so ought to do it. And she said no I'm too busy
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    and so and so, you ought to do it. No I'm too busy.
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    And they went about half a dozen of them. And then Doug Harper who was a pastor in Houston,
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    I was now at Clearlake Christian Church in Houston,
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    this is 1990 or 96,
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    he says well there is somebody here that I think could do the job for us.
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    Actually I'm sorry, this is fall of 95. And
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    you know most of you don't know him. His name is Jack Haberer.
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    He can do it. And Dave McKechnie
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    and I are also in Houston we can help him do it.
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    And I just kind of shivered in my place.
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    They basically, I was a nobody in the group,
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    and everybody all the eyes were on me
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    and they said will you do it, asked will you do it?
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    And I'm like yes.
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    I thought oh my gosh my wife's going to yell at me.
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    My sessions going to kill me. And that said it's not even all of one mind on this issue.
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    There are two members of the session that were outspokenly supporting
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    gay lesbian matters and certainly ordination.
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    But anyway. But I said yes I'll do it.
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    I went back and they said OK you're on.
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    Went back to my wife,
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    God bless you. God is calling you to do this. You ought to do it.
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    Went to my session, shared it with them,
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    and one of those who is very outspoken,
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    a brilliant scientist from the Johnson Space Center,
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    said Jack you know I don't agree with your position
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    but I do believe that God has got a call upon your life that you are our pastor
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    and if God's calling you to do this then you have my support.
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    And I shivered
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    with oh my what am I doing.
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    So this would, and right after that meeting of the Coalition,
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    a meeting of the Permanent Judicial Commission came down
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    with a ruling overturning a lower church action
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    but basically by a vote of nine to seven saying we're reaffirming
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    the position of the 1978 General Assembly
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    but with seven on the negative side. By the way, we had decided in
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    that meeting of the Coalition,
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    we debated should we propose,
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    as we come to the end of this three year study, should we propose an overture to the Book of Order
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    that would actually call for putting in the constitution directly a prohibition
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    on ordaining LGBT folks.
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    And the consensus was no.
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    We don't need to muck up the Book of Order
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    with something like that.
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    The policy really shouldn't do that.
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    We need to trust the process. And that's OK.
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    Well a month later this ruling comes down from the GA PGC.
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    It's such a close vote and suddenly the phones
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    were lighting up calling each other, we weren't using internet much yet,
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    calling one another "we need to do something, we need to do something,
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    we need to write an overture for an amendment to the constitution." And so
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    that was written largely by Barry Vanderventer in
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    one of the Presbyteries in South Carolina. He was the Presbytery exectuvie there and again a
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    very smart one at that.
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    They put together a very well written proposal that wouldn't be singling
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    out gays and lesbians. It would just be about fidelity in marriage
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    and chastity in singleness and they hammered that out.
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    And that became the proposal. But now I was the guy in charge so suddenly
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    I was having to do strategy behind scenes.
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    I have no political science training at all
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    or experience.
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    But I did intuitively figure some things out somehow
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    and had some good people that were mentors like Harry Hassel
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    who was also at Highland Park in Dallas.
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    And particularly these Genevans who just were so savvy in terms of understanding church polity
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    and process. And so what all happened is that the next General Assembly Roberta
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    Hestenes was appointed by Marge Carpenter to be the chair of the committee that dealt
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    with those matters, that were going to take the reflections of those three years of study
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    and hammer them out. They put together
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    that other overture that someone else in the community said we need
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    to have this thing about
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    all matters of whatever the confession calls sin shall prohibit
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    and all that which is really an odd thing
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    but he insisted on it so that got written in there.
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    And after that it was approved by the assembly
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    and then the leadership of the Coalition said OK Jack you're in charge of our national
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    strategy to get this thing ratified
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    and it kind of took over my life for the next year.
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    What were some of your campaign strategies to get it ratified?
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    First of all we went back to Betty Moore who had been the executive director
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    of Presbyterians for Renewal and had retired a couple of years before.
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    We said, Betty we need you to come out of retirement.
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    We need you to work the phones and the basic strategy was that Betty was
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    going to make phone call after phone call after phone call to what we called the
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    friendly pastors, the friendly churches, to raise funds
  • speaker
    and especially to get out the vote.
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    Harry Hassel who was this chief strategist,
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    she was always kind of the point person for doing behind
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    the scenes strategy, they were doing that at the same time.
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    It fell to me to work on the visible
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    national strategy. And so I took it upon myself to,
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    while also making phone calls to raise money for the group,
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    but to
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    write and develop basically articles to publish
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    and also ads to print.
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    And I know we spent about a thousand bucks per ad
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    or something like that for the Presbyterian Coalition. We did national mailings
  • speaker
    and all that. So I was doing most of the print work.
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    And Betty doing the phone calls.
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    Another group came along, Presbyterian Forum, headed
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    with executive director Bob Davis
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    and Bob Dooling being the chair of the board who also very much in close cahoots
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    with us. They were also doing working the phones independent of us
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    but very much in tandem with us and also very all connected through the Presbyterian
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    Coalition with different pieces on managing those matters.
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    And so together we were accumulating all of this
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    effort to try to make the case.
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    And with the mind and savviness of Harry Hassal
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    and those Genevans, "you got to win the center,
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    you got to win the center." You know as it is in U.S.
  • speaker
    politics, you've got to win over the independents.
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    We had to really put our thrust on our first emphasis
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    and efforts on those who could be winnable either
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    way.
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    And at first the votes were going heavily
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    in favor of proposals to,
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    overtures to, I'm sorry take it back.
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    We had the proposal out on the floor of the church to put in
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    this fidelity-chastity policy G-6.0106b.
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    The numbers would go into the book.
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    At first, the no votes were coming in very quickly
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    but Harry was the perfect strategist.
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    He knew exactly what presbyteries to expect what votes would be coming in all of that.
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    And so we worked and worked and worked to
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    get those wins and particularly on the border,
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    on the bubble presbyteries.
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    And gradually gradually gradually we got win after another
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    and one win after another. As we got to that,
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    as we were getting toward that point, and it looked like we might well be able to win,
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    I also took up another strategy which is that I had
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    figured out or at least I kind of theorized one of the things about
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    PC(USA) is that we often got
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    national press that made us sound a whole lot more left wing
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    than the overall churches.
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    And quite frankly I told you that I started this
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    with a care and compassion for gays and lesbians.
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    I mean that's where this whole thing began
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    but also morphed into, in an addition to that,
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    into a love for this. I had already falling in love
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    with this denomination which I had been a part for not very long,
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    but about 10 years I guess or 12 over 13 years.
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    And I really wanted the church to stick together.
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    I could see that going the other way on this was going to blow the church apart.
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    I'd been through other church splits before even going to seminary.
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    And my first church out of seminary went through a big split while I was there.
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    I was the little guy on a big staff.
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    But I knew that those kind of church fights
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    just have no winners to them.
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    More people get run off from the faith altogether than by
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    anything else that goes on in the church. And I wanted the church to stay together.
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    So I wanted to try to find ways for us to get through this.
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    In good ways. By the way I will say that when we are in the middle of all
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    those debates a few people would ask me Jack do you really like this
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    overture. Do you really like this amendment? And I said no,
  • speaker
    I think it's poorly written. It doesn't fit in the Constitution.
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    It really doesn't. But if it's defeated we'll be
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    worse off.
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    We will actually end up losing the authority of the 1978
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    and the court will say see it was rejected so therefore at next court
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    meeting it would definitely tilt the other way.
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    And that there was no way as I could see it as a churchmen,
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    not just a conservative, but a churchmen,
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    that we had the tools in the larger church to know how to deal
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    with that and that we would just really pull apart.
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    And I desperately did not want to see that happen.
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    I was also working trying to figure out how can I help us get the good
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    press.
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    I decided what I've got to do,
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    we've got to do, is send out a press release. I'm sure what happens is that those folks
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    in Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns
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    and the More Light Presbyterians, they were both separate organizations still,
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    they know they've got a pipeline to the press.
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    I've got to build a pipeline to the press. And so I hunted down Associated Press,
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    USA Today, CNN,
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    New York Times.
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    I basically accumulated about 20
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    or 30 fax numbers of all of those press
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    outlets that were critical to the U.S. understanding.
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    And I got them down and I developed a press release that explained exactly what had happened.
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    And since the national headquarters was only publishing the results as
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    they had been officially sent in which would mean they'd arrive like two
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    or three weeks late, but we were getting them by the hour when they were being voted.
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    We knew exactly when we were going to cross that line.
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    So I had all those press releases ready to go.
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    Everyone directed and I did my very best to make it sound as objective
  • speaker
    as a news reporter would want it to be.
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    I asked someone,
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    Clayton Bell, if I could make him their spokesperson for us.
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    He says I don't talk to the press. That's your job Jack.
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    So I gave my name and phone number to contact for further conversation.
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    And I also gave Scott Anderson's phone number as the spokesperson for the other side
  • speaker
    who I knew would, as a gay man,
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    had total passion and commitment to it, but also is reasonable
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    and responsible and would make a case for that.
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    So that I was facilitating the work of the press to do their work.
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    And sure enough when that went through we had one of those old manual fax machines.
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    I spent three hours with my secretary
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    and administrative assistant just feeding these faxes in one by one,
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    page by page. It took forever.
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    But the phone started ringing and I got interviewed
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    with most all of them. I had a lengthy interview
  • speaker
    with TIME magazine,
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    actually three interviews with TIME. And then Scott
  • speaker
    and I both had our pictures in that issue of TIME magazine when they
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    sent photographers to both of us. Same thing with the New York Times for me.
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    And there and U.P.S. wire was all around the country
  • speaker
    and a lot of others. I was on O'Reilly. I'd never heard of O'Reilly yet
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    but I was on O'Reilly Factor.
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    And I actually was called by Peter Jennings people to
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    do World News Tonight.
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    But I was overwhelmed. I said just leave me alone.
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    I did do CNN Headline News as well as an interview.
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    That was a brief interview that was broadcast.
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    I should add one other point that also during that year because I was in that role
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    presbyteries started calling
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    and said we need to have a debate would you be willing to come
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    and be on the Pro G-6.0106b side.
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    We'll get someone from the other side. And so I did probably about 20
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    or 25 debates that year.
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    Scared to death in every case
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    and almost every case people that I had heard of
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    and were formidable. I also had no debate experience
  • speaker
    or training. I was totally out of my element there.
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    But in every one of those cases the debates went well.
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    They were done fairly and my opponent was
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    so gracious and so respectful. And at some point some people were asking me hostile
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    questions and being hostile toward me.
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    Stuart, in particular, would say wait a minute I want to answer that.
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    You're not being fair to Jack. This is what Jack is saying
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    and you need to understand that. You know we might disagree on the big picture.
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    But on this point Jack's right now
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    and I would agree with that...I was like, Oh my goodness this is this is not the monster I thought I was dealing
  • speaker
    with. That was an eye opening experience time
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    and time again throughout that process for me.
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    But anyway so, at the end of it all said
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    and done that was adopted.
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    Then the following general assembly right after that which was in Syracuse
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    they called for changing fidelity-chastity to fidelity-integrity.
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    Laird Stuart of all people was the chair of that committee of that assembly
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    and that was sent out. I was pastoring a formidable Church
  • speaker
    in Houston at a time and trying to do a good job.
  • speaker
    It's only my second year there as I'm doing this.
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    And so I said OK I'm done. I'm done. And then they came back
  • speaker
    and said no we've got this battle and we need another year from you.
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    And same thing with Betty.
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    So we put in another year and successfully defeated that one by an even larger margin than the
  • speaker
    first time around. That became the end of my time
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    with the Coalition leadership per se
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    but anyway that's kind of how that all played out.
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    Short question, long answer.
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    Yeah.
  • speaker
    You mentioned your relationship with Laird Stuart, can you talk more about your relationship with him and other members of More Light Presbyterians, the Covenant
  • speaker
    Network...
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    Yeah. One thing that was developing in those three years
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    or sorry in those couple of years of my Coalition leadership
  • speaker
    was I wasn't
  • speaker
    familiar with the term opposition research.
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    But when I was asked to be the leader of the Coalition I picked up the phone
  • speaker
    and called Cliff Kirkpatrick at general assembly
  • speaker
    and introduced myself to him. I said you know I'm a nobody.
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    I know you've never heard of me but I've been asked to moderate the Presbyterian Coalition.
  • speaker
    I just thought I should introduce myself to you so that I can be in touch
  • speaker
    with you in any way that might be of help or value.
  • speaker
    I called Robert Bullock the editor of the Presbyterian Outlook and made that same kind of conversation.
  • speaker
    And I also contacted some of the leaders of More Light Presbyterians
  • speaker
    and PLGC and said you know I'm your opponent.
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    I'm working on the other side of the table from you
  • speaker
    and the other side of the aisle. But I certainly want to
  • speaker
    know you by name and know that you know me by name.
  • speaker
    You're welcome to contact me if you've ever got a question,
  • speaker
    an argument, an issue that we ought to talk about. Or if we're being unfair
  • speaker
    or dishonest. You know we need to be open
  • speaker
    with each other. I want to be open with you
  • speaker
    and not just be at arm's length.
  • speaker
    And of course that would build all the more with all those debates because now I was face to face
  • speaker
    or side by side with these folks
  • speaker
    and those grew.
  • speaker
    Right after the fidelity-integrity amendment was defeated,
  • speaker
    John, um,
  • speaker
    Pastor of the Wayne Presbyterian church in
  • speaker
    eastern Pennsylvania - it's going to come to me - He called Cliff Kirkpatrick
  • speaker
    and said we need to do something different.
  • speaker
    We need to get leaders of both sides of this issue together
  • speaker
    and see if we can settle the waters somehow.
  • speaker
    It's been adopted.
  • speaker
    Fidelity-integrity's been defeated.
  • speaker
    But we don't need to have another amendment battle this next year.
  • speaker
    And so Cliff called me asked me if I wanted to come.
  • speaker
    Asked if Byrd Haskins would come, the leader of the Coalition
  • speaker
    and the one who chaired the committee that gave us the fidelity-chastity.
  • speaker
    Then invited John Buchanan leader of Covenant Network and.
  • speaker
    Laird Stuart who chaired the committee that produced fidelity-integrity.
  • speaker
    The four of us to be with John
  • speaker
    and Cliff. And I said we really need someone
  • speaker
    other than yourself Cliff that's really a policy expert.
  • speaker
    Could I get a policy expert there too?
  • speaker
    And he said Yeah I think you're right.
  • speaker
    He said who you think. I said Barry Venter.
  • speaker
    And even though he was the guy who came up with the wording of fidelity chastity he had a good objective
  • speaker
    mind. He could see the bigger polity now.
  • speaker
    He says well I know Bary well you're right. He's a great policy person.
  • speaker
    Let me suggest that back to the others.
  • speaker
    And they all agreed it was actually going to be seven of us that we get together.
  • speaker
    Roberta offered to host it at the home of one of her members out in
  • speaker
    Solana Beach California in San Diego County.
  • speaker
    And so we got together for basically a 24 hour gathering
  • speaker
    in which time we had enough formal conversation to really
  • speaker
    like each other.
  • speaker
    I mean really connect. By the way Barry had to cancel at the last minute because
  • speaker
    of weather and flights and travel
  • speaker
    and all that. So it ended up being just six of us
  • speaker
    and the six of us got together. And right off the bat
  • speaker
    Roberta said you know speaking of Robert Bullock in Presbyterian Outlook,
  • speaker
    he has asked me to write an article
  • speaker
    and editorial about all of this.
  • speaker
    And I'm calling it Time Out.
  • speaker
    I only have it on hand scratch
  • speaker
    but I'll read it to you.
  • speaker
    Give you an idea of what I'm thinking.
  • speaker
    And she basically said we've been fighting fighting fighting.
  • speaker
    Let's take a time out. Like it's like sending the children into the corner
  • speaker
    or saying you need a time out from fighting.
  • speaker
    The church needs a time out and that gained some traction
  • speaker
    with all of us.
  • speaker
    And gradually John Buchanan said we need to think more theologically.
  • speaker
    How about we use the word Sabbath like oh yeah.
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    Well how about sabbatical. OK let's see a sabbatical
  • speaker
    and one idea,
  • speaker
    throwing out another and another
  • speaker
    and by the end of those 24 hours we'd come up
  • speaker
    with let's have a Call to Sabbatical.
  • speaker
    We were saying three years.
  • speaker
    We've had a three year study, now let's have a three year sabbatical.
  • speaker
    Then I think it was,
  • speaker
    I don't know which one maybe was John Buchanan himself,
  • speaker
    also said I'm not sure we ought to put a date on it because then you're
  • speaker
    getting that you're going have a war at that point.
  • speaker
    If we say we have extended time
  • speaker
    and let's see what can bubble up more informally
  • speaker
    or you know support spontaneously among us maybe we come up
  • speaker
    with something better. By the way,
  • speaker
    when people ask me about is this a good amendment,
  • speaker
    I didn't just say if we don't approve it it's going to be chaos.
  • speaker
    I also said there's got to be another way
  • speaker
    but we haven't come up with it yet.
  • speaker
    There is another way out there. I don't think this will last more than ten years tops.
  • speaker
    We'll find a better way.
  • speaker
    But we haven't gotten there yet. I think just the overall conversation in the church,
  • speaker
    and I don't have any either, I mean I confess I don't have a better way to come up
  • speaker
    with something. I guess you could delete that last sentence
  • speaker
    but still that wouldn't answer it all.
  • speaker
    But anyway so I said we will all agree we need more time to find a better
  • speaker
    way forward and to have better more, untructured conversation so that we can
  • speaker
    grow together. We ended up,
  • speaker
    after a week of consulting back
  • speaker
    and forth behind scenes, we ended up publishing the Call to Sabbatical.
  • speaker
    A one page appeal to the church.
  • speaker
    It was appealing to folks that have wanted the policy to change to open the doors.
  • speaker
    John and Laird basically saying to our people please let's let that go for a
  • speaker
    while. Let's stop writing legislation let's stop having this pitched wars
  • speaker
    against one another. On our side,
  • speaker
    Roberta and I said basically to those of us who've been on the winning side.
  • speaker
    Let us be gracious in our victory.
  • speaker
    Let's. Yes the policy is a policy it needs to gets enforced.
  • speaker
    But let's not be punitive.
  • speaker
    Let's not be pointing flashlights in people's back bedroom windows.
  • speaker
    Let's not be triumphal
  • speaker
    or purging the enemy and all of that kind of thing as sometimes happens after wars.
  • speaker
    What bubbled up in my mind was the Marshall Plan.
  • speaker
    You know after we won the war we helped.
  • speaker
    World War II, we helped the opponents rebuild their
  • speaker
    dignity, regain a sense of normalcy
  • speaker
    and actually recognize us to be friends not enemies.
  • speaker
    And so we published that.
  • speaker
    And suddenly the Layman went crazy on us.
  • speaker
    I mean they just absolutely attacked that part.
  • speaker
    Williamson was angry as a cat
  • speaker
    on a Hot Tin Roof and particularly singled me out.
  • speaker
    He said Roberta and I were the guilty conservatives that were too nice to the left.
  • speaker
    Didn't go after her probably because she was kind of mother superior of the conservatives
  • speaker
    and he'd be taking down a person who was an icon.
  • speaker
    I was anything but an icon.
  • speaker
    And as a white male I was an easy target.
  • speaker
    Younger white male easy target.
  • speaker
    So he really took me on as a great traitor to the cause
  • speaker
    and that the only way he can win a victory is you've got to vanquish the enemy.
  • speaker
    You've got to drive them all out of office.
  • speaker
    We've got to be essentially shut out of Louisville.
  • speaker
    We've got to get all those liberals out of there.
  • speaker
    Out of all the positions of power in the denomination.
  • speaker
    Well I was basically lifting up Marshall Plan as the way forward.
  • speaker
    That frankly
  • speaker
    bonded our relationship across the aisle
  • speaker
    with our fellows around this Call to Sabbatical
  • speaker
    and we had already begun doing some conversational behind the scenes
  • speaker
    meetings.
  • speaker
    You know half a dozen evangelical conservatives,
  • speaker
    half a dozen progressive
  • speaker
    liberals were getting together
  • speaker
    and talking about our theological issues.
  • speaker
    Often Theology and Worship was helping facilitate that.
  • speaker
    Joe Small and Sheldon Sorg put a lot
  • speaker
    and a lot of work into that, gave great great leadership to that.
  • speaker
    And so those relationships began to build.
  • speaker
    And what was a defining one was that Laird called me
  • speaker
    probably three or four months after that General Assembly and said Jack, we need to do a pulpit exchange.
  • speaker
    I'll have you out. And you preach my pulpit.
  • speaker
    And you have me out and preach in your pulpit.
  • speaker
    I wanted to die. I thought this is going to be awful.
  • speaker
    I can't do this. He's going to blow my church up.
  • speaker
    This is not going to go well at all.
  • speaker
    But I couldn't say that
  • speaker
    and I couldn't come up with some other excuse to say no don't
  • speaker
    let's don't do this to me
  • speaker
    and said, OK Laird, that's a great idea.
  • speaker
    Yeah sure we ought to do that. I was choking on my words
  • speaker
    but I just couldn't. He was just too nice
  • speaker
    and was just too nice.
  • speaker
    And so I thought well why not.
  • speaker
    And sure enough he had me out.
  • speaker
    My wife went out with me my Barbie and we spent a weekend there
  • speaker
    with him and his wife and I preached his services
  • speaker
    and talked about how much we need one another
  • speaker
    and a month later he and his wife flew out to be
  • speaker
    with us.
  • speaker
    And he actually was more pointed about the need of being more inclusive of gays
  • speaker
    and lesbians. And I was like no, Laird, you're going to kill me because like my church wasn't
  • speaker
    solidly conservative but the solid majority was.
  • speaker
    But it went well. It went really really well
  • speaker
    and wonderfully well and from there more
  • speaker
    and more conversations in all different kinds of lights
  • speaker
    but especially with these theological gatherings maybe three
  • speaker
    or four times a year for typically three
  • speaker
    or four days
  • speaker
    or maybe two or three days. But doing a lot of
  • speaker
    groundbreaking conversation in relationships
  • speaker
    that helped form really really good friendships.
  • speaker
    And frankly it ending up leading to the writing
  • speaker
    of my book God Views because what happened even back in those early times of debate
  • speaker
    we'd have these debates in the present meeting
  • speaker
    and then we'd always either be put up in the same hotel suite
  • speaker
    or end up in the room where they have the libations
  • speaker
    and ended up drinking some wine or beer together at the bar
  • speaker
    or at a table and then telling our life stories.
  • speaker
    You know telling, so tell me about your church
  • speaker
    and what are you really all about.
  • speaker
    Because they usually are pastors.
  • speaker
    And I started to ask what became a stock question: What's
  • speaker
    God up to in your church
  • speaker
    and what's God up to in the bigger church.
  • speaker
    And their answers consistently
  • speaker
    they never mentioned anything about gays and lesbians even if they were gay
  • speaker
    and lesbian. They didn't say anything about classic
  • speaker
    conservatism versus classic liberalism.
  • speaker
    It wasn't that they weren't argumentative.
  • speaker
    They were. Whole different kind of take about
  • speaker
    Bible study or whole take about growing
  • speaker
    spirituality or kind of take about caring for the hungry
  • speaker
    and the poor or standing up for justice
  • speaker
    or building or bringing the church back together in unity instead of tearing itself apart.
  • speaker
    I started cataloging.
  • speaker
    I started just downright taking notes and trying to track it because this
  • speaker
    was... Going back to my seminary,
  • speaker
    Gordon-Conwel Seminary.
  • speaker
    There were two kinds of Christians. Our kind and their kind. And our kind are the ones that believe
  • speaker
    in inerrancy of the text scriptures. It's God's word always to be believed
  • speaker
    and followed and taught and never to be compromised.
  • speaker
    And those other people don't share that.
  • speaker
    And therefore everything that we claim to be true of
  • speaker
    the faith is up for debate not only issues of sexuality
  • speaker
    and marriage but on issues of abortion
  • speaker
    and life or death
  • speaker
    but issues of the Virgin Birth of Christ issues of the
  • speaker
    resurrection of Christ the ritual of salvation that frankly everything
  • speaker
    is up for debate and therefore none of it is secure.
  • speaker
    You've got to be in our camp to be secure
  • speaker
    and not the other camp. Basically that's the enemy.
  • speaker
    And in that simplistic black
  • speaker
    and white, excuse me us and them, my side their side,
  • speaker
    red and blue mentality, that's how my construct
  • speaker
    was. And I came into a denomination I knew to be more left than right.
  • speaker
    But I was a part of this movement of renewal
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    and awakening on the right that's going to help win the day
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    and become you know the dominant force as we see the future.
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    And now those simple categories began to crumble.
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    It wasn't my friends
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    and my enemies but became my allies
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    and my opponents which is less radical
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    but it then became my frenemies
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    and my allies who make me crazy because they're so hateful toward
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    anybody that's even nice to the other side.
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    And I was being criticized openly just because I talked to the left
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    and Parker Williamson said point blank you do not talk to them.
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    You cannot talk to them because if you talk to them then you begin to negotiate
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    with them and negotiate with them and you compromise
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    with them and compromise is not of God. That's a direct quote of Parker yelling at me in a meeting
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    of leaders of renewal organizations.
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    That was exactly what he said. You cannot even speak
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    with them. You cannot sit down with them.
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    They are the enemy. You must not work
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    with them. Anyway that all of that began to come apart.
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    And now I was in this clumsy
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    place of still being on the evangelical-conservative side of the issue
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    of LGBT participation in leadership,
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    fidelity-chastity, but also having a loving relationship
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    and really respecting those
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    and recognizing the sincerity and genuineness
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    and theological basis of their arguments.
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    That while I thought my theology was better,
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    I didn't think theirs was defective
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    or wrong. That it was an understandable
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    outgrowth of some good theological reasoning
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    and that in fact what God is up to is bigger than these issues.
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    These issues certainly fit in and particularly under the category of justice
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    and under the category of biblical theology
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    and rightly get debated in those. But that's part of a bigger picture of what God is doing.
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    That led to the writing of an article
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    that was asked for by Mark Ostermeier
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    and Andrew Purvis who Geneva Press asked to write a book about an anthology
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    of articles about the life of evangelicals in the PC(USA).
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    Well a couple other folks are doing the same thing for the life on the left,
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    again that right left categorization,
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    and they asked me to do an article on an evangelical perspective of unity in diversity
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    in the church. And I said there's no such thing as an evangelical perspective on unity
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    and diversity because evangelicals don't believe in that. They said yeah,
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    but you do.
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    And then we want you to write about it. We know you're about the only one that talks about that stuff
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    but we want you to do it.
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    We need to get that article in that paper.
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    And so I talked about these different mindsets
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    and I had cataloged five of them that I dubbed
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    theo-ideological impulses.
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    I said they're impulses because when I've asked someone,
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    "What's God up to?" their answers are immediate.
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    They don't have to think about it. They knew. They immediately rolled right into it.
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    It was ideological. They had passion to it.
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    They had it. It was a thing that could say woke them up in the morning
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    and the thing they thought about when they went to bed at night.
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    But it was also the theological ideology.
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    It was about it had God at the core
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    and there was no doubt in every one of them that it was about God.
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    It wasn't about some secular idea of of
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    of social justice. It was a God-driven kind of thing through ideological impulses.
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    And I wrote about the ideological impulses in this paper
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    and even had a gathering of pastors or my presbytery that the presbytery exec agreed to host on my
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    behalf to test it with them first.
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    But it got it was in that order in that anthology
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    and ultimately I can get to that later.
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    But it got formed into calling it God Views because theo-idelogical impulses is a
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    totally forgettable expression.
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    God Views has a little bit more catch to it. But anyway so these
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    genuine friendships really developed out of all of this.
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    When when when a fun anecdote
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    and couple of years into this.
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    Why after we've done this thing about with the Call to Sabbatical,
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    I was at the beginning of another general assembly,
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    a pre-assembly event. A great theological scholar was lecturing
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    and room was packed, probably six
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    or eight hundred people in the room. I walked in late
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    and got a spot right in the back of the room.
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    About ten minutes later John and Sue Buchanan walked in.
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    John and his wife.
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    And you remember he and Bob Bhole were the head of the Covenant Network
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    when I was the head of the Coalition.
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    Well they come and sit next to me.
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    The only empty chairs are right next to me.
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    I turn and said can I get you a glass of water?
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    It was over nearby. They said Oh sure. So grab them glasses of water,
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    hand them over, and we sat through the lecture.
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    Then we chatted a bit at the end. And I saw John the next day.
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    He says Jack you're not going to believe this. I said what.
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    He says you know when we met yesterday
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    and you gave us a glass of water
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    and all of that we chatted. And I said yeah.
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    He says after you walked away Sue turned to me
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    and said Who was that nice guy?
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    Who was that nice guy? Who is that?
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    He said he said I told her that's no nice guy.
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    That's the czar of the Coalition.
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    I said you got that one right John.
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    I was part of the Coalition. I am the enemy.
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    That's the case. A picture of the friendship that we had was developing.
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    There was a there was a friend just a downright laughing
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    humorous level of friendship that had grown
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    and real mutual respect that carried us into the whole nother next range
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    of the life of this unfolding story.
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    That's great. So then did your perspective shift on LGBTQ ordination and membership?
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    Not
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    yet. Not yet.
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    What happened.
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    Shortly after, when I was writing God Views,
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    ironically after it was Tom Long who was the
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    editor of Geneva Press within the overall umbrella
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    of Presbyterian Publishing Corporation he was he had left Princeton Seminary
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    and had taught, he was ultimately going to go to Kendler seminary
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    and teach there. But he was in a few years break in the middle.
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    And I called him
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    and said to chat about this article
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    I had written. I just asked him.
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    So what do you think of that article. He said Jack it was a really good article I really really liked your piece.
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    It's very very substantial stuff and I said what would you think if I could develop that into a book.
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    He says I'm all about that. I'm really interested in that he said.
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    Are you going to call it these ideological impulses.
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    No I said No no no no no. I said I've got another word.
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    How about God views.
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    He said God views. I said yeah, put them together one word
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    but capitalize both G and V
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    and make a word out of that. And he says now that could work.
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    And I said Well I think I want to expand.
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    I'd like to develop. I'm due to take a sabbatical coming up this next summer,
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    not a long one, but what I'm thinking is I'd like to get to working on this.
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    He says well, this is in the middle of spring, he says why don't you put
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    together a proposal
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    and I'll go to the board with that.
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    So I actually wrote the proposal, 30 page proposal,
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    while I was on sabbatical.
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    My son got married in the middle of that so it wasn't all sabbaticalizing, but I spent three
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    weeks in Israel Palestine
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    and partly to see there.
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    Well back it up. When I had conversation,
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    and I did have some conversation with European Christians
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    and leaders from other countries,
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    they'd always say what are you doing arguing about sex.
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    Why should a church be pulling apart about sex?
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    And like well you all have your own battles too.
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    Well I go over to Israel Palestine
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    and I had contacts there with whom I could stay.
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    And I'm like well you've got messianic Christians
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    and you got Palestinian Christians
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    and they won't speak to each other. They have they have they they have no contact
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    with one another. They see each other as the enemy.
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    And the big battle there is the land. Who holds the land.
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    Who gets to live here. And we in America would think that's crazy.
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    Why are you dividing the whole body of Christ over land issues.
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    And so I want to get inside their experience
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    and see if the getting inside their experience
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    and how they address that and see us can help shed some light on our experience
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    back here.
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    Ironically. But as I got there.
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    On the first day, first full day, our bus tour - itwas a
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    bus tour for 10 days and then 20 more days that I had by myself -
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    but
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    in that first day on the other hand our first stop was
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    in Caesarea.
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    Roman city built in name to honor
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    Caesar. But up the coast from Tel Aviv
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    and Netanya,
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    the beach city outside of Tel Aviv.
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    And it was also the place where Peter
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    shared the gospel with Cornelius
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    and Cornelius who was a Roman soldier
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    and his whole cohort basically became believers.
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    And they had
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    a Holy Spirit experience, apparently spoke in tongues, and Peter's asked himself people asking
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    themselves what Peter can do. And he baptized these pagans,
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    these Greeks. They haven't been circumcised.
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    And Peter said hey if the Spirit's been given to them,
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    who I am to deny them the waters of baptism and he baptized them.
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    And suddenly this movement within Judaism breaks
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    out of the confines of Judaism.
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    Well the next stop on the day was up to Mount Carmel to go
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    up the top of the mountain.
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    And I had written down an exit thesis paper on Elijah's battle competition
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    with the prophets of Baal.
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    I knew that story inside and out. I'd studied the the
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    history of Baal worship and you know
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    some of their own literature. And so we get out of
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    the bus and I'm walking around this place
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    and taking it all in and it's just amazing,
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    wonderful, fascinating
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    and I come out to the. We go around a Catholic monastery there
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    up to the terrace to look out
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    and the tour guide pointed off to the east he said you know that over there
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    is Megiddo where Armageddon is,
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    we'll get to that in our next stop. To the south you can see the mountains that
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    are running up to Jerusalem. And no I said up to Jerusalem.
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    It's south and you Americans think that means down,
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    but here everything goes up to Jerusalem because that's the pinnacle of
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    Judaism.
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    So it doesn't matter what direction, it's always up to Judaism. He says then he says then you see the plain leading to
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    the waters. Beautiful, glistening waters of the Mediterranean.
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    The morning sun was bright on it. He said you can see that can you see those smokestacks
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    in that mist on this on the shore.
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    Yes well thats Caesarea, where we just were.
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    And suddenly I shook.
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    I thought Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
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    Oh my God this is where I've been living for the last three years.
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    On Caesarea where we evangelicals proudly stand for the truth
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    of God and will not compromise.
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    And with those progressives that are standing in the city
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    of Caesarea with the doors wide open.
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    And suddenly I realize we're in this citadel of truth
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    and there in the port city of inclusiveness
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    and that's where the Gospel is found is with both at the same place,
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    time.
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    And I shook. I was just stunned.
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    And I wept
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    and I just wept there because this is my church.
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    This is the PC(USA) and we're supposed to be both.
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    We're supposed to be the church that proclaims that truth.
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    The Church of the world. The Church of the Bible. The Church of the books.
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    And also that the church the arm of church that welcomes the sinner.
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    That doesn't pretend we're not sinners. That we are.
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    Everybody is welcome here and I'm tearing up right now saying this.
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    It's such an overwhelming moment.
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    It became the first chapter of my book to use as a matter of fact as a way to introduce
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    the whole story.
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    I unfolded in that book GodViews what I saw as five different
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    ways people understand not God per se
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    but God's mission. What is God's mission in the world?
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    What are we supposed to be doing in God's image in the world?
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    What is that mission supposed to look like and be?
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    And on the one hand it's to be proclaiming the truth.
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    And I dubbed that the confessionalist GodView. Getting the truth
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    and preserving the truth as we say in the great ends of the church.
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    But the second group is all about spirituality
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    and prayer and worship.
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    I call it the devotionalist GodView.
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    And the third one is the Ecclesiastes GodView about building the church
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    and being the church and strengthening the church.
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    And I also realized ultimately that this kind of different versions of it there's all those that are all about the local church.
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    It's all about the connection of church or the denomination.
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    This is about the ecumenical church which is the church all around the world.
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    But this is still about the church.
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    And the fourth one became that those two are so concerned about the ministries
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    of caring and mercy to the to the needy the homeless
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    and the marginalized.
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    And I called that the altruist GodView.
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    Well actually I called it the beneficent one.
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    But then when I talk to Barbara Wheeler she says that's not the best word you need altruist.
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    I said OK Barbara. Yes mother,
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    I'll do that. I'll take it.
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    She also became a very very good friend and all of these battles
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    and debates.
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    And yes I went with altruist under her suggestion
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    and then the one about standing up for justice the church having a prophetic
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    voice and having the courage to our convictions
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    and fighting against injustice and evils
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    and principalities and powers. And I call that the activist GodView.
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    And what became the thesis was that all of those
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    are extant in the church.
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    All of those are biblically based.
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    All of them have historic heroes in scripture
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    and in the history of the church. All of them have favorite hymns.
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    Everyone is an important voice.
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    But everyone also has a dark side.
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    Every one of them can go backwards
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    or go wrong left on its own. Confessionalists can be pharisaical,
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    judgmental. The devotionalists can be all spiritually minded to have
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    it in mind that there are no earthly good. The Ecclesiastes can be just purely pragmatic
  • speaker
    and frankly exclusive. Oh we don't need those kind of people because that's going to mess up our churches
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    peace and quiet. The altruist can be so much about the good works that the spiritual
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    and theological core can get kind of lost
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    or just kind of too much presumed and too little talked about
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    or too little proclaimed. The activist sometimes just go crazy
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    and that can get worked about so many issues
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    or issues that are not really grounded in the biblical construct
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    and become too selective about what issues they'll stand for
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    and then disregard others anyway.
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    Every one of them has their dark sides
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    or their underbelly. But if we can get them all together
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    and yes it's not always a it's not usually a pretty thing when they get those five voices around a table
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    but when they can get together and really wrestle
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    and struggle and be really constructive engagement
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    we all can learn from each other. Learn,
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    help recognize our own oversights
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    or our dark sides or missed judgments
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    and help each other become more faithful.
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    With regard to all of these matters and
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    and also recognize that our own healthy congregations do best if we have
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    all those kinds of voices are on the table.
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    Not that anyone has specifically just one out of five
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    but most of us are one or two or three
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    and most of us have one that bugs us that just that we've got to stop.
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    Can't let that go on here.
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    And so we have all those weightage on the table.
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    We can be more faithful in our local congregation
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    and our denominational work in our ecumenical work
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    and more true to the mission of God in Christ in the world anyway.
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    So that became my books are my three books the one that's been the
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    big seller because it was actually bought by some presbyteries for all their pastors.
  • speaker
    And it was also pushed by Cliff Kirkpatrick.
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    I left out the part that when I came back with a proposal I sent that into Tom Long.
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    Two weeks later he called he says the board met.
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    They want your book. You have three months to write it.
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    I said you're an idiot.
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    Hey Tom I just got back from a sabbatical.
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    I spent the whole sabbatical just putting the proposal together.
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    Now you're giving me three months to write the book. He says Oh Jack you can do it.
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    He said yeah do it Jack, just do it.
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    I said, at least give me until January.
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    He said, you're not going to get any writing done in December.
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    Let's get on this before advent. Don't.
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    Don't think about it. Get it to me by Thanksgiving. And I said, Tom you're an idiot.
  • speaker
    But I am too, so what the heck. I'll do it.
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    And he said and he said if you do then we will publish it in three months.
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    I said I've never heard of that. I said it's supposed to a year to write
  • speaker
    and a year to publish. He says we'll do three and three.
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    You write it in three. We'll do it three. Because Cliff Kirkpatrick wants it in time before the next General Assembly.
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    He wants everybody to read it before we come to this assembly.
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    I said well I got to give in to Cliff Kirkpatrick.
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    I love the guy. He's the ultimate ecumenically Ecclesiastes.
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    But yes I'll do it.
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    And what I did is I preached through it. And every Sunday I'd preach,
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    every Monday I'd write a chapter. That was my day off anyway.
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    My wife had a regular full time day job
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    and so I would just block myself in my study all day
  • speaker
    and I would write and if I wasn't done, then when she got home she'd bring my dinner in my room
  • speaker
    and I'd just keep writing until I was done.
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    I'd stay up to midnight or past if I had to but I'd get a chapter every Monday
  • speaker
    and actually had it done two weeks in advance, two weeks ahead of a deadline.
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    I actually said to the two great scholars Stacy Johnson the theologian
  • speaker
    and Jim Singleton a historian, I said,
  • speaker
    Please read this to find all of my mistakes.
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    Get it, you know clean up the mess. I'm sure there's mistakes in that.
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    And they offered, they had some good things to offer
  • speaker
    but not a lot actually to my surprise.
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    But anyway. Yeah so that got out there
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    and was published then and then at that next General Assembly there was an overture
  • speaker
    from John Calvin Presbytery calling for
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    a theological task force to be formed to
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    pursue the matters of the peace
  • speaker
    and purity of the church.
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    And they were modeling it after something that had been done in the 1920s.
  • speaker
    Back when we were divided so much over the fundamentalist modernist controversy,
  • speaker
    General Assembly called for a task force.
  • speaker
    It was that it was Peace, Unity, Purity and Progress of the church.
  • speaker
    We had taken that out of the ordination exams.
  • speaker
    I kid that Presbyterians gave up on progress a long time ago.
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    That was 1952. We said no more progress,
  • speaker
    we'll just stay where we are. But Peace, Unity, Purity and so that General Assembly
  • speaker
    adopted a proposal for that.
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    And then you know you asked the question "when did I
  • speaker
    shift." We came together in the fall
  • speaker
    and I got to say that I had a kind of private argument
  • speaker
    with the leaders because I thought the original committee as constituted was not balanced.
  • speaker
    And I kind of dug in my heels and said I won't be a part of this.
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    You've got to do something more and so they ended up adding some other members to the committee
  • speaker
    and to have a more truly balanced committee
  • speaker
    and we did. When we were convened
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    and that fall,
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    and that was the fall of 2001,
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    because the book had come out in March of 2001.
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    And that began
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    but it was basically five years of conversation. Again in five years I still
  • speaker
    hadn't changed my position in terms of my conviction.
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    That God wants to heal and give freedom from a homosexual
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    or a gay, lesbian orientation.
  • speaker
    Not out of condemnation, not out of guilt, not out of shame,
  • speaker
    but that there can be a way out.
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    But also I had also come to say that I recognize the integrity
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    and honesty and truthfulness of those who are saying that doesn't work for me.
  • speaker
    And anyway in the process of that task force
  • speaker
    work the question wasn't how can we change the policy
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    and ordination of gays and lesbians or on marriage for that matter.
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    The question was how can we live together.
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    How can we be one church together.
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    And I clearly had become a denominational ecclesiastic.
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    All of those,
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    of those five categories that had become,
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    had been emerging along
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    with a confessionalist and devotionalist.
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    My inclinations had were really strong in that direction
  • speaker
    and the 20 of us that were meeting together over those years
  • speaker
    we really were wrestling with how can we do theology well.
  • speaker
    How can we be the church together. How can we embrace one another.
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    How can we give space to one another.
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    And I did come to the place by in those five
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    years of saying yes I have my convictions
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    about gay lesbian patterns of
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    lifestyle that says that's not the best plan
  • speaker
    but I can make room for those who think
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    otherwise and that.
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    I felt that the policy should remain as it is.
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    Fidelity marriage between a man and woman and chastity in singleness,
  • speaker
    but that there is room to make exceptions.
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    And what was actually brought before the committee early on by
  • speaker
    some of the policy wonks in the group, I'm not one of those,
  • speaker
    going harkening back to the early 1800s.
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    The idea of allowing scrupling.
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    Back then it was over what the Westminster Catechism,
  • speaker
    Westminster Confession said about the following having
  • speaker
    the civil magistrates have authority over the decisions of a session
  • speaker
    and that the whole one person spoke for the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    I can't agree with that. I want to declare a scruple
  • speaker
    and next thing the whole, everybody in the assembly did except for one
  • speaker
    who just wasn't it was undecided the time. And that they hadn't had a process,
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    a pattern that would allow a person to declare
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    a kind of a scruple without having to change the whole constitution all over it
  • speaker
    and rewrite the constitution just because that one person says that the
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    rule stays in place but exceptions are allowed.
  • speaker
    And that was put in practice
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    and actually continued in practice until about the 1970s.
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    And what emerged in our work was that we needed
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    to make room for
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    those who cannot abide by the Fidelity chastity rule
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    or other rules for that matter. We used to allow this until
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    with the Women's Ordination issue being so central to the battles of the Church of the
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    1960s and 70s.
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    And that when one individual in Presbytery of
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    Pittsburgh being ordained said I'd like to declare a scruple in this matter.
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    I want to be a pastor and as a pastor I stand for all the things of the church
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    but this one policy that says not only do we allow women to be ordained
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    but all those being ordained need to be in a position of willingness to participate in the ordination
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    of women to be pastors, a minister's word
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    and sacrament, or elders or deacons. I cannot in conscience do that.
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    Good conscience. I'd like to ask the forbearance of
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    the Presbytery to allow me to be ordained in spite of my disagreement on that
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    point. The presbytery voted to approve that
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    but a couple members of the presbytery filed a charge against the presbytery for not following the Constitution.
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    That ended up in theGeneral Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission
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    and they said scruple on that matter is not allowed.
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    That's too much of an essential of the faith
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    and one that cannot be allowed. And scruple kind of went out of practice.
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    It wasn't ever eliminated from the rules
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    or the history or precedents,
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    but it was just kind of set aside because in that case
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    no way. Hell no.
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    And what these folks
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    with good historic historic historian
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    and policy minds were saying is we need to bring that back
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    and that there's room for that. And I bought that.
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    I came to accept, came to believe that that's that that's a place we can
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    go.
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    I would also say that I had all along for some
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    twenty years by now, thirty years percolating on
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    the notion that biblical teaching on ethics that often
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    we conservatives would speak of as absolutes are not absolute.
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    They're not even that they're not even absolutes in scripture no less
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    and how how it's applied
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    and that the they are standards.
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    They are the way things are generally to be done.
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    And the book of Proverbs expound on things that are always about in general
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    how this is, how things function, but not absolutely that always a rule to be followed.
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    That ultimately
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    I wrote well when you got into debates about marriage
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    after all this, it all bubbled up into writing my other book,
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    and I think it probably...hold off. That's another story.
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    We'll wait till we get to it.
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    But I was really wrestling that notion
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    and this really went back to the 1980s when I first helped a family have to address the question of
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    the mother who is 90 percent brain dead.
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    Is it OK to disconnect the life support?
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    And at that point there was, no it wasn't in the conversation anywhere,
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    except they was the Karen Quinlan case.
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    A woman, a young woman, lying in state for years in a vegetative
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    state and being fought in the state up to the Supreme Court about what could be
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    done. Could the family discontinue life support for the medical people?
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    And it was a big deal about a battle
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    but the term medical ethics was not in American conversation.
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    And the questions of life and death decisions that are now the case of baby babies
  • speaker
    basically 80 percent of all deaths in hospitals.
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    Someone has to decide for the medical field to say changed so radically
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    with all of the incredible technologies
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    and medical skill of this last generation.
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    I was already wrestling with the notion that God said be fruitful,
  • speaker
    multiply, replenish your office. Said subdue it
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    and that there are examples in scripture of the subduing
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    along with the many examples that say choose like I said before your life that you choose life.
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    There's a both and when it's the majority position one is the minority one
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    is the general principle to follow.
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    But the room for exceptions are what I ultimately called
  • speaker
    approximations and adaptations.
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    I was already wrestling with that kind of thinking.
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    I wasn't talking about it anywhere nowhere.
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    People were not hearing me talk about this because I knew that I'd be in trouble all across
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    the board. Every ideology would have an argument
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    with me. But.
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    But as I was in that Theological Task Force I was holding that in mind as well.
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    And so to come up with the notion of scrupling seemed like the right way
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    to go forward and
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    that's where we ended up coming out
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    and up with the unanimous approval of that
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    and going to the General Assembly. And 60 percent of our report was
  • speaker
    adopted pretty much unanimously. The more theological part.
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    The other 40 percent more 60-40 roughly vote.
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    Hopefully you have the more exact numbers
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    but at the end it became the policy of the church.
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    And so I continue to live to all of that
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    with with all those folks in mind.
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    And again building on those friendships ironically for the most of the folks on
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    PUP. It was an eye opening experience to be
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    with people from across the aisle.
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    To be
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    with all of those other people who are reasonable.
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    I already had so much of that in these dialogue groups before that there was no surprise
  • speaker
    me at all. It was just like, See. Yeah you weren't as bad as you think I think
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    you are.
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    And we're not as bad as you thought we are.
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    But I do, you would discover that because I had already been across that bridge before
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    and a few of those other folks like Deborah Wheeler had had that same experience.
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    But many of them had not.
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    But it just reinforced what I knew to be true
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    and reinforced the thesis of GodViews.
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    We never talked about GodViews ironically in the process of the work,
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    but I wasn't, didn't have a need to make that an issue.
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    But the outcome of our work was very much,
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    it was a very very important next phase of my own growth
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    and and the church's growth of course.
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    Unfortunately the folks on the right saw that as the ultimate betrayal.
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    The old, you know, the ultimate
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    failure of the church.
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    And I was I was I was very much branded "the infidel" by Parker Williams
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    and "that there was the traitor that sold the conservative movement
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    to its death."
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    And that in fact that the future
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    of evangelicalism quote unquote "the future of evangelicalism has come to an end because Jack
  • speaker
    Haber betrayed us." And this was before a crowd of 600
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    or so conservatives that were the Confessing Church movement
  • speaker
    that ultimately moved into becoming,
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    forming ECO.
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    You know, no sorry, back up. Correction.
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    Not ECO. They became, they joined as a group,
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    left, got their churches to join an evangelical Presbyterian church
  • speaker
    and continued in there as group called and they now call themselves the New Wineskins.
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    And went in there as the New Wineskins
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    and ultimately assimilated into EPC.
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    But. But yes that was an address Parker gave
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    and address that ended with a standing ovation.
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    I didn't stand. But needless to say
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    but the and I was sitting third row from him right in the front because I was there as
  • speaker
    editor magazine taking photographs.
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    But the yeah that was a defining moment.
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    But you know so it was.
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    But I it didn't. It did not deter me in the least.
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    So then what was your involvement in the ordination debate moving forward after the
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    task force?
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    In the ordination debate. Now
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    with that approval of the scrupling model everything
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    changed for me because on the day that the Theological Task Force finished
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    its work on a morning in Chicago,
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    yes was Chicago,
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    I had an appointment that same afternoon. Everyone else headed to the airport
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    but I had another night to spend overnight to fly back the next day to meet
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    with the board of directors of Presbyterian Outlook to interview to become their
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    new editor.
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    That quickly the wheels turned.
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    I was elected to become their new editor which was crazy because
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    the Presbyterian Outlook was always the voice of the liberal Southern church not the liberal
  • speaker
    branch of the Southern church.
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    And this was the first they'd ever gone out that
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    I was the guy with a vast
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    and established conservative reputation
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    and and being branded the great traitor hadn't gotten
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    out yet. That was a year down the road.
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    I got a lot of criticism right away but then that was still this is the very day it was a part of proofs of
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    that didn't have a chance to happen. But I asked them.
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    I said, have you all lost your mind.
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    And one of them said in my final interview
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    with the whole board said, Jack the Presbyterian Outlook
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    has always been the voice of justice against injustice.
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    It's been the voice. It's been a progressive voice to challenge the church.
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    We challenged the church into reunion,
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    pressed for union for many years.
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    We pressed for women's ordination for many years.
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    We pressed for a lot of things when they're out of style
  • speaker
    and they became in style.
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    He said, the gentleman continued, said today the greatest issue
  • speaker
    in the Presbyterian church isn't our ideology.
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    It's our unity and our capacity to be able to be the church together
  • speaker
    has been tried and tested beyond anything we've ever seen.
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    We need an editor who can be the voice for unity.
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    Who can bring us together.
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    And you are that voice. And I said OK I'll do this.
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    And so I became the editor.
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    But what that did is that put me in a really bad situation because
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    the editors don't make the news, they report the news.
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    And you know I got,
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    I also had no training in journalism.
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    OK so all I had was English Comp 101
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    and I got a B minus in it.
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    The I had a job on my hands.
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    But journalism 101 is there are some ethics in journalism
  • speaker
    and you can't you can't be crossing the line.
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    Being an advocate for a major policy issue when you are going to be the primary
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    reporter for reporting about that issue.
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    Well we negotiated. All of us on the Theological Task Force were asked to do a lot of speaking
  • speaker
    all around the country. And I already had probably 10 events
  • speaker
    on my calendar and they said you've got to cancel them
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    and I said no I can't cancel. No I can't.
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    I said I will make the, I will make a publishing
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    editorial early on that says this is what I've done on the Theological Task Force
  • speaker
    and this year, while it is being
  • speaker
    debated, before it comes up before the assembly for action I will never report on it.
  • speaker
    I will see to it that Leslie Scanton on national reporter will be the one who does.
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    And I'll see through the other articles written by other people
  • speaker
    but I will not report on it. I will take these 10 speaking
  • speaker
    engagements. I've agreed to do. I will not take any others.
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    I will I will turn down every other one.
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    And I will also have some caveats explaining my complicated role when I do so.
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    They said OK we'll agree to that.
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    So I took a much lower key role in all of this.
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    Now right off the bat after
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    that interview but before I had the position,
  • speaker
    I already called upon my colleagues in Presbyterians for Renewal
  • speaker
    and the Presbyterian Coalition.
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    I was still on the board of Presbyterians for Renewal. No I had been the president.
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    I think I just rotated off of presidency.
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    But in each case I asked for a conference call to explain
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    the work of the task force
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    and to try to convince them that I have not lost my mind.
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    I have not sold us out. This is not going to produce a wholesales
  • speaker
    swarm of ordaining LGBT persons.
  • speaker
    I'm not sure that anybody is going to be ordained under these.
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    Under this policy because it still can be a challenge up to the GA PJC
  • speaker
    and the GA PJC hasn't stopped.
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    They still have the women's ordination rate rejection scruples
  • speaker
    and they were on their books and they may not allow it.
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    And ultimately they did come out with a position that said we're not going to allow it on this basis that
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    you know I said do not...Anyway, I tried to win them over.
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    I won like one or two of them over individually.
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    But overall both the boards said that I made a mistake.
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    PFR was gracious and the Coalition
  • speaker
    and some of them were, but others were not.
  • speaker
    And the Layman just decimated me.
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    But the the Outlook board had had me
  • speaker
    doing my work. So I was I started work that was the interview
  • speaker
    was in September I believe were the end of August.
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    I started my work first of January
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    and after saying I do my farewells of my congregation
  • speaker
    and that would be in 1st of January 2006.
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    And.
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    Went right to work on doing the magazine
  • speaker
    and doing some speaking engagements. But but again the only those that were needful
  • speaker
    and the.
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    And so then.
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    But there were, at that point we went through the assembly,
  • speaker
    as I've already referenced, and it was approved by the Assembly.
  • speaker
    And then there were a couple of overtures to follow to try to make changes
  • speaker
    and to put more into the Constitution than was there
  • speaker
    and also to still try to get rid of the language of fidelity
  • speaker
    and chastity because in their defense those who were on the other side of the aisle
  • speaker
    on this matter scrupling still sounds like,
  • speaker
    well you know we'll let you be ordained,
  • speaker
    but only because you're extra nice.
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    You know we'll make an exception to the rule for you.
  • speaker
    But the rule stays in place. And it sounds way condescending,
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    way insulting, way dismissive.
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    And I knew
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    even there that may not, this is probably not forever because it still
  • speaker
    it clearly implies a second class status for a gay
  • speaker
    or lesbian person to be ordained.
  • speaker
    At that point in the life of church the folks on the Covenant Network side of things that
  • speaker
    were the more moderate advocates as over against the more passionate advocates are that were now the More Light Presbyterians
  • speaker
    and other organizations
  • speaker
    related to them, That All May Freely Serve, and the Stoles group.
  • speaker
    Anyway, that we were there worked.
  • speaker
    And when it came to other.
  • speaker
    And so over the next couple of years whatever initiatives came forward to try to change the Book of Order
  • speaker
    were rejected.
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    Eventually and
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    frankly the the language that
  • speaker
    Covenant Network kept coming up and kept coming forward
  • speaker
    with just and others within just didn't
  • speaker
    work either.
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    And as far as good polity goes,
  • speaker
    the argument wasn't strong theologically. And it
  • speaker
    wasn't. But it wasn't getting in the air in a way that would would work.
  • speaker
    But finally they came up with a very, a really really well,
  • speaker
    brilliantly written alternative to G-6.0106b that
  • speaker
    had that they could pass muster.
  • speaker
    And at that point
  • speaker
    I only addressed it once in that editorial.
  • speaker
    Leslie Scantan was covering it thoroughly
  • speaker
    and I was getting great writers to write on both sides.
  • speaker
    Robert Bullock set a great example of that. And by the way he did that often because that original friendship.
  • speaker
    He'd have me write often as a voice from the more conservative side.
  • speaker
    But now it's getting the best voices I could find from different sides of these positions
  • speaker
    and even nuancing you know the really strong passionate
  • speaker
    and more moderate you know three or four different people to write on the same subject to be able to help foster the conversation.
  • speaker
    And basically and my my basic argument was this deserves consideration.
  • speaker
    I didn't say support it. I didn't say vote for.
  • speaker
    I didn't say reject it. I said this deserves to be looked at
  • speaker
    and considered. And
  • speaker
    then I truly stayed out of that debate.
  • speaker
    And in the years past I had done a lot of behind the scenes
  • speaker
    conversation between the different lobby groups
  • speaker
    and say you know my folks don't like this about that proposal
  • speaker
    but they would like that about it. And well my folks like this about that.
  • speaker
    And I tried to do some kind of behind the scenes backroom discussions to try to do that.
  • speaker
    This time I wasn't doing that. I was only being an editor
  • speaker
    and I was letting those powers that be.
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    And that new overture did get approved
  • speaker
    and General Assembly sent out as an amendment
  • speaker
    and was approved by by the presbyteries.
  • speaker
    And by then
  • speaker
    we'd had the New Wineskins exodus had taken place
  • speaker
    and other exoduses took place.
  • speaker
    But not in as much of a wholesale
  • speaker
    way as before I was retired.
  • speaker
    How about we take a break?
  • speaker
    Sounds great.
  • speaker
    So one of the next issues was marriage.
  • speaker
    What was your perspective on that?
  • speaker
    Ironically all along I was never as dogmatic in my
  • speaker
    opposition to gay marriage as to the ordination of gays
  • speaker
    and lesbians. Now I'm not sure if there's a good reason for that except that the presenting issue
  • speaker
    for decades ever since the 1970s was who can be ordained.
  • speaker
    And also in those early years people don't largely
  • speaker
    think about this or remember this
  • speaker
    but the gay movement wasn't calling for marriage until after the turn of the century.
  • speaker
    It was, not that the turn of the century is a magical time,
  • speaker
    but from
  • speaker
    the years of just being totally outcast to trying to find
  • speaker
    a just a decent place of human rights in the most minimal way
  • speaker
    human rights, the gay movement in our country,
  • speaker
    LGBT movement,
  • speaker
    was really about decency
  • speaker
    and that landed in Presbyterian World as a matter of ordination.
  • speaker
    In part because we've always had our biggest fights about ordination.
  • speaker
    Women's ordination. Before that it was no minorities
  • speaker
    or ordination and that tends to be where we divide
  • speaker
    and define ourselves as our kind of cardinal
  • speaker
    thing about theology. But also cardinal thing of polity
  • speaker
    and they get married at a point like that.
  • speaker
    In the 1990s while
  • speaker
    I remember the first time there was a gay kiss on TV.
  • speaker
    And even back when I was in those debates,
  • speaker
    I was like I've never seen you never see gays in TV shows
  • speaker
    or TV movies or movies.
  • speaker
    And it seemed really odd to be so far behind
  • speaker
    when there is heterosexual immorality that was so public in
  • speaker
    so many ways.
  • speaker
    But not that anyway. So it was it was late coming.
  • speaker
    That was a latecomer to the debate.
  • speaker
    But also because by theological construct I
  • speaker
    had more of an issue with ordination.
  • speaker
    But I also realized that there was
  • speaker
    obviously a shift to allow LGBT marriage
  • speaker
    and to prove marriage would be really really problematic.
  • speaker
    And for me it was more on the ecclesial side than the confessional side.
  • speaker
    That for so many people everything hangs on
  • speaker
    family values family values. Family values became the code word
  • speaker
    for conservative Christianity.
  • speaker
    A way to talk about conservative Christianity without sounding so religious.
  • speaker
    So it was only about family values thanks to Jerry Falwell
  • speaker
    and Pat Robertson and others others that followed along.
  • speaker
    And that was a battle that was fraught
  • speaker
    with trouble.
  • speaker
    But it was it was the battle that had to happen.
  • speaker
    And I would also say
  • speaker
    and did say back in the 90s and in the early 2000s that it's ironic
  • speaker
    we are dealing with the secondary issue.
  • speaker
    The righ, the primary issue is what what to do
  • speaker
    with gay and lesbians that fall in love together.
  • speaker
    How can they be together in a way?
  • speaker
    And that's and that's an issue of all of life not just in
  • speaker
    our churches.
  • speaker
    And so anyway so things began
  • speaker
    to bubble up after Theological Task Force
  • speaker
    did its work.
  • speaker
    And the scrupling was allowed with ordination.
  • speaker
    And then the rewriting of the Book of Order for
  • speaker
    G-6.0106b. Course the numbers are different within newfound form of government,
  • speaker
    but the language there that replaced it that was settling
  • speaker
    into a place of OK ness
  • speaker
    and it didn't produce a flood of LGBT folks taking
  • speaker
    over the churches as conservatives so terribly feared.
  • speaker
    But it did open the doors
  • speaker
    and rightly so. Thanks be to God.
  • speaker
    But then the turntable did change.
  • speaker
    We've got to talk about marriage. You've got to make marriage possible.
  • speaker
    And.
  • speaker
    Back in the middle of of the days when I was just done
  • speaker
    with the Presbyterian Coalition, the 2000 General Assembly which was the summer
  • speaker
    when I was over in Israel-Palestine writing
  • speaker
    and doing my research for GodViews, I missed it.
  • speaker
    That's the only General Assembly I missed in the whole stretch of years.
  • speaker
    There bubbled up a commission.
  • speaker
    A resolution declaring
  • speaker
    prohibiting same-sex unions.
  • speaker
    That had been something that had been going on in churches
  • speaker
    and had not been contested because a) it didn't pretend to
  • speaker
    have the sacramental function which you don't have for marriage
  • speaker
    anyway but to not have called for a standard.
  • speaker
    You have all those trappings hat go
  • speaker
    with legal marriage.
  • speaker
    And so it was going on and we conservatives were not making a big deal out of it
  • speaker
    but some wanted to. At that General Assembly a commissioner's
  • speaker
    resolution went forward to prohibit any same-sex unions.
  • speaker
    And I remember I was checking my e-mail internet by then every day
  • speaker
    and seen that. And said, how stupid. It's going to backfire.
  • speaker
    We just barely got through the other votes.
  • speaker
    This is going to produce a backlash.
  • speaker
    It'll backlash either way. If the Conservatives win they'll be a real backlash against it.
  • speaker
    If we lose that will be seen as the foot in the door
  • speaker
    or that the camel's nose into that tent that's going to take that whole tent down.
  • speaker
    It's going to backfire.
  • speaker
    Well sure enough it did. And I came back,
  • speaker
    I told my friends, you guys what were you thinking.
  • speaker
    That was a really dumb idea. Oh it's not going it's not going to go well.
  • speaker
    And it didn't for conservatives.
  • speaker
    It was definitively rejected by the presbyteries many
  • speaker
    of whom were known conservative presbyteries
  • speaker
    but said this this is this is we don't write policy like this.
  • speaker
    It's bad policy. Anyway, rejected that. Now a few years down the road.
  • speaker
    It was like but we've got to go past same-sex unions.
  • speaker
    And was the outcry.
  • speaker
    The Covenant Network put forward
  • speaker
    a model overture to that effect.
  • speaker
    That effectively,
  • speaker
    it essentially said,
  • speaker
    if the state's laws allow it, the church should allow it
  • speaker
    and if state laws do not, they should not.
  • speaker
    I wrote a blistering editorial against it
  • speaker
    and it wasn't on the question of marriage itself.
  • speaker
    It was on the question of how do you perform a theology of marriage
  • speaker
    and to say that we're going to let the state tell how our theology goes I'm like
  • speaker
    no way. That's not the answer.
  • speaker
    We
  • speaker
    can't do that.
  • speaker
    And about six months after that it was rejected by
  • speaker
    the General Assembly.
  • speaker
    So that next fall, after that assembly,
  • speaker
    the Covenant Network hired Brian Ellison to be their new director
  • speaker
    with whom I had worked side by side in General Assembly years.
  • speaker
    There were a few years where I was not doing any kind of those advocate roles
  • speaker
    or a part of the Coalition and actually worked behind the scenes in the tracking department
  • speaker
    helping people write overtures. And that's simply because Jerry Andrews,
  • speaker
    who was heading up the Coalition,
  • speaker
    kept wrestling with Cliff Kirkpatrick that the department
  • speaker
    feels too conservative whenever evangelicals want to write a commissions resolution
  • speaker
    they get a hard time. You need to have somebody in there. Someone to do that. And Cliff said
  • speaker
    I'm not going to get rid of the people who are there. But if you want to give me someone else that you'd like to have in there I'll do
  • speaker
    that. And Jerry said well how about Jack Haberer. I said I'll do that.
  • speaker
    So I got to do that and be the conservative nice guy there for
  • speaker
    those folks.
  • speaker
    And it turned out that I realized that the others were not just hassling them.
  • speaker
    They hassled everybody. It was just
  • speaker
    you do your homework well or we're not going to let you do this.
  • speaker
    They were equal opportunity annoyers.
  • speaker
    And we had lots of fun. But Brian was in that group
  • speaker
    but I didn't know he was gay.
  • speaker
    I said, Brian I didn't know you were gay.
  • speaker
    And he said, well yeah I've been keeping it under wraps.
  • speaker
    But yes I am.
  • speaker
    Anyway so the next Covenant Network conference,
  • speaker
    which was just kind of his coming out party for his role,
  • speaker
    and I took him aside at one point I said,
  • speaker
    So what's your strategy going in next year.
  • speaker
    Obviously you are going to go after marriage more. And he said yeah.
  • speaker
    I said you can't use the same dumb strategy you used last year.
  • speaker
    He says you mean the strategy that you wrote a scathing editorial about.
  • speaker
    I said yup that one.
  • speaker
    I said I got another editorial on the ready if you're going to do it again.
  • speaker
    He said you made some enemies over that one. I said I know I did.
  • speaker
    I pissed some people off, but you know you deserved it. It was a dumb overture. I
  • speaker
    said are you going to do it again. He said yeah that's our strategy.
  • speaker
    I said you can do so much better than that Brian. He said we can? I said yeah you can.
  • speaker
    He said you really mean that? You have a strategy that we could use?I said yeah.
  • speaker
    He said are you going to tell me? I said no.
  • speaker
    I said I'm not going to tell you today. I said yes there's another way to do this.
  • speaker
    But we need to spend some time to talk about it. And I said as a matter of fact,
  • speaker
    at the end of the month I've got a conference to go to
  • speaker
    Chicago.
  • speaker
    You live in Kansas City. I live in Houston.
  • speaker
    Off the top of my head saying how about I take an extra day,
  • speaker
    stop in Kansas City, spend the night.
  • speaker
    You put me up overnight and we spend a day together
  • speaker
    and talk about it.
  • speaker
    He says you got that one.
  • speaker
    You got that one. So that's exactly what we did.
  • speaker
    And we spent a few hours talking together.
  • speaker
    Then we went to lunch
  • speaker
    and Tom R. the pastor
  • speaker
    joined us for lunch and incorporated his thoughts into it although we did talk a lot at
  • speaker
    that point. But I basically walked him through
  • speaker
    a way I had thought of. Cause I said what I've realized
  • speaker
    when, at least in my heart,
  • speaker
    when the marriage issue began to bubble up Brian.
  • speaker
    I thought oh no the church is going to blow up over this unless we find a better way forward.
  • speaker
    We've got to find a better way forward.
  • speaker
    And I said frankly Brian. God kicked me in the butt
  • speaker
    because. Because I have a book
  • speaker
    and another book in my head on Christian ethics
  • speaker
    that I've been thinking about ever since the 1980s when I was wrestling
  • speaker
    with the question of discontinuing life support for a person
  • speaker
    and I was I was a card carrying pro-lifer in a church that was mostly
  • speaker
    a card carrying pro-lifers with exceptions.
  • speaker
    But the but I realized that there can be exceptions to the rule on things.
  • speaker
    And I think there's another way forward.
  • speaker
    And as this has been bubbling up and I've been struggling
  • speaker
    with it, wondering how as the editor of the Outlook can I be of help in this,
  • speaker
    and I heard God whispering in my ear so to speak.
  • speaker
    Get off your butt and write the book.
  • speaker
    Man up and write the book because when I when I originally had this idea,
  • speaker
    and I did share it with a few people.
  • speaker
    And I did agree to do a one page paper on the matter of
  • speaker
    abortion and life and death issues.
  • speaker
    I agreed with persuasion by
  • speaker
    and out of my church to put pen to paper. But I wouldn't put my name on it
  • speaker
    and I let the session read it and they discussed it
  • speaker
    and that. And only after they voted that we're going to
  • speaker
    do some stuff according to that did someone say well who wrote it?
  • speaker
    And that one elder said OK Jack.
  • speaker
    And I said yes I wrote it. But I will never touch this.
  • speaker
    I'm never going to. You will burn these copies.
  • speaker
    They will never be seen in public until I retire because if they
  • speaker
    get published while I'm still in ministry I'll lose my job.
  • speaker
    I'll get everybody pissed off from the left
  • speaker
    and the right. They'll all be angry with me because it sounds like a big compromise anyway.
  • speaker
    God said Get off your butt and write the book and left it in my head for over 20 years.
  • speaker
    And so so but but before getting into the writing I sat down
  • speaker
    with Brian. We got together and I basically walked through,
  • speaker
    I said Brian the question that's been on my mind is if I could allow myself
  • speaker
    as a member of Theological Task Force in Peace,
  • speaker
    Unity, and Purity, to make room for scrupling,
  • speaker
    and did so because the reason the real genius
  • speaker
    of the reasoning was not that we were inventing something,
  • speaker
    but we are dusting off something that had just been gathering dust for 30
  • speaker
    years because for lack of attention.
  • speaker
    Is there something we can be dusting off
  • speaker
    and saying this is really what we've been about we've just forgot about it.
  • speaker
    And I said thinking about that,
  • speaker
    if I can find that same line of reasoning, can I get to a conclusion allowing marriage.
  • speaker
    And bingo it hit that when it comes to being married
  • speaker
    ministers always have a judgment call they're allowed to make which
  • speaker
    is is this couple ready for this.
  • speaker
    Do they have good intentions for this?
  • speaker
    Do they understand this?
  • speaker
    Are they mature enough to be able to do this?
  • speaker
    Or am I committing to God to consecrate in heaven
  • speaker
    a union that's a fraud here on Earth.
  • speaker
    We have that discretion as pastors
  • speaker
    with heterosexual couples.
  • speaker
    What if we could say that discretion goes to homosexual
  • speaker
    couples as well.
  • speaker
    And he said ohh.
  • speaker
    I was like yeah that was my thought.
  • speaker
    Oh and I said there's another way to do this.
  • speaker
    That like fidelity-chastity remaining in the Book of Order
  • speaker
    but the scruples are allowed.
  • speaker
    What if we say the model is marriage between a man
  • speaker
    and woman, but scruples are allowed.
  • speaker
    And we do it on the basis of that's the way we've been doing it forever anyway
  • speaker
    and we're just extending the range of where the judgment
  • speaker
    calls can be made. And by the way I said also.
  • speaker
    It's not just about maturity
  • speaker
    and all that. It's also divorce and the marriage.
  • speaker
    There was a time when divorcees could never remarry
  • speaker
    and at least no ministers that were divorced could ever remarry
  • speaker
    and be ordained anymore.
  • speaker
    And then it was well divorcees if they were innocent of that,
  • speaker
    the other spouse that was unfaithful, and they were the innocent party so they can be married.
  • speaker
    But when we had all these kinds of ways we kept adjusting the rules as the
  • speaker
    world was changing around us and we did.
  • speaker
    And and very very few of us,
  • speaker
    I married couples that when I was in seminary I never would have married.
  • speaker
    Because I've seen how it's worked
  • speaker
    and I've seen the legitimacy of their marriages work themselves out.
  • speaker
    To me this is the next logical step in that progress.
  • speaker
    So it's not a process. So it's not just that these are normal in your abnormal
  • speaker
    but we'll allow your abnormal because you're nice and sincere.
  • speaker
    But most marriages are abnormal.
  • speaker
    In the old days unless you're a virgin
  • speaker
    I'm not doing your wedding. There was a time when it was that strict.
  • speaker
    And by the way we conservatives love to talk about the model of marriage.
  • speaker
    The biblical model of marriage, a biblical model of marriage,
  • speaker
    is not a boy and a girl or a man or woman.
  • speaker
    The biblical model of marriage is a male that is a virgin that's never had
  • speaker
    a lustful thought and a female that's a virgin that's never had a lustful thought
  • speaker
    who come together in a spiritual consecration
  • speaker
    and then they have their first lustful thought in bed that night
  • speaker
    and voila they are now they've now consummated marriage.
  • speaker
    That's the biblical model. OK none of us are the biblical model.
  • speaker
    So let's get get recognized that all marriages are an approximation
  • speaker
    at best or an adaptation is as well.
  • speaker
    By the time I've been using those words for the what would become the thesis of my
  • speaker
    book It's Complicated. Anyway.
  • speaker
    So we hammered out language on how that might
  • speaker
    look like as an overture to make an
  • speaker
    authoritative interpretation of the Constitution. Not a change in language in the constitution on marriage
  • speaker
    but have an authoritative interpretation.
  • speaker
    And then a few weeks later they had their board meeting.
  • speaker
    He took that to them as his proposal.
  • speaker
    Been in conversation with somebody else. But it's just between us.
  • speaker
    Here's what you're doing. And all through that day,
  • speaker
    now technologically using texting,
  • speaker
    he's texting me all through the day. Says Jack.
  • speaker
    This is what they want to suggest, this word for that.
  • speaker
    Oh yes good idea. No that's not a good idea.
  • speaker
    I don't know that you can do that. If you take that then you've got it.
  • speaker
    No I can't support that anyway anyway.
  • speaker
    Yeah I knew you'd say that. OK.
  • speaker
    So we will keep that in anyway. So all through the day.
  • speaker
    And then later on he told me that at the end they said OK so who helped you
  • speaker
    with this. He said well you can't say because he's in trouble because he's the editor of the Presbyterian Outlook
  • speaker
    but yeah it's Jack Haberer that came up
  • speaker
    with this idea and then we formulated this together.
  • speaker
    So that went to the Assembly
  • speaker
    and it was approved. Which meant that day the next day
  • speaker
    it was allowed for people to be married under the under those terms
  • speaker
    that the ministers have that discretion.
  • speaker
    Now that assembly,
  • speaker
    not to my liking, also there was another overture to change the language of that part of the Book of
  • speaker
    Order which then was also approved by them
  • speaker
    and sent out for approval in the congregations.
  • speaker
    So it was. It was. And so that wasn't my language.
  • speaker
    It was good language overall if you can change the language of what's in the Book of Order,
  • speaker
    Book of Worship, it was a good alternative so I wouldn't want to feel the need
  • speaker
    to change it. But that
  • speaker
    also was sent out so that it was available right away
  • speaker
    because as an authoritative interpretation it was allowed
  • speaker
    but then with the ratification in the presbyteries which was successful,
  • speaker
    that went through as well
  • speaker
    and now became the rule of the law. The law of the land for the church.
  • speaker
    And which. And by the way in my original
  • speaker
    authoratative interpretation I also said that the discretion on who can be married is up
  • speaker
    to the minister. The discretion and what goes on in the church facilities is up to the session.
  • speaker
    So either or could say no
  • speaker
    but the minister could do it offsite,
  • speaker
    could have a destination wedding so to speak. Or the session could say yes we can do it,
  • speaker
    but the Minister won't isn't willing so we can have a guest minister
  • speaker
    or we can have another you know something else to do the wedding.
  • speaker
    Discretion is allowed in both cases because that is true to our polity
  • speaker
    anyway.
  • speaker
    But then the overall change was made to the Book
  • speaker
    of Order.
  • speaker
    Backing up on all of that.
  • speaker
    Well that's basically that's how we got there. And I want to get to the story of the new
  • speaker
    ECO and how that came out of there. But if you want to ask anymore about all of that? Did we cover it? Okay then.
  • speaker
    As the marriage overture was being debated
  • speaker
    there was a whole lot of rumblings. There were a whole lot of rumblings going on even
  • speaker
    with the view that the authoratative interpretation itself did not create a big
  • speaker
    blowout. And the good news is I was able to report it,
  • speaker
    although even when I wrote an editorial about that
  • speaker
    I didn't endorse it. Said this deserves some consideration
  • speaker
    and left it up to the commissioners to do that without my advocacy.
  • speaker
    But I never owned up publicly even till now to say that that's
  • speaker
    how that all came about with Brian and myself
  • speaker
    with Tom R. present and the Covenant Network board.
  • speaker
    As the overture was being, or now the amendment,
  • speaker
    was being debated in the presbyteries you have evangelical leaders who
  • speaker
    did not go with the New Wineskins because they could not imagine being a part of evangelical Presbyterian Church because evangelical Presbyterian Church allows women's
  • speaker
    ordination but it's an exception to the rule. And at that point
  • speaker
    I think there was only like one woman chaplain somewhere
  • speaker
    and another an associate pastor. That was it in the whole denomination.
  • speaker
    And a lot of evangelicals were not going
  • speaker
    to do that.
  • speaker
    They just, we're not going to.
  • speaker
    We don't want to. We don't want any ambiguity about our commitment
  • speaker
    and complete agreement on women being ordained in all offices of the church.
  • speaker
    There's a lot of buzzing going on. I think it was in January of that year when the debates
  • speaker
    and the votes are going on and that end of the voting goes heavily January through March.
  • speaker
    They began to see the handwriting on the wall.
  • speaker
    Seven of them got together saying we're going to lose
  • speaker
    this. And we're going to lose our churches. This is going to blow up.
  • speaker
    We need to do something. We need to find some way forward.
  • speaker
    And. And they put out what was known as the white paper.
  • speaker
    And they also called themselves the seven dwarfs.
  • speaker
    In part as a confession that they were idiots to do this as seven white
  • speaker
    guys doing this.
  • speaker
    I remember I was friends, good friends
  • speaker
    with most of them
  • speaker
    but especially Jim Singleton.
  • speaker
    And when that came out
  • speaker
    Jim and I, I was
  • speaker
    trying to call him and missed him.
  • speaker
    He finally called me back a couple days later which happened to be Easter Sunday afternoon.
  • speaker
    So we're about to sit down
  • speaker
    and have Easter dinner. He said Jack this probably isn't a good time to call.
  • speaker
    I said no we need to talk.
  • speaker
    He says yeah we're a bunch of idiots aren't we.
  • speaker
    Yeah you really are idiots. That was really stupid.
  • speaker
    And you know the good thing is that they weren't calling for any denomination
  • speaker
    but they were calling for evangelicals to come together
  • speaker
    and look at what we're going to do together and how do we do it.
  • speaker
    And I said Jim there's a better way to do this.
  • speaker
    I realize you guys are really concerned about being
  • speaker
    associated with a nomination that does the wrong thing.
  • speaker
    And the guilt by association is a major target for everybody.
  • speaker
    But it's also that. But it's.
  • speaker
    But in the end we can't win that argument
  • speaker
    but we're callous Jim.
  • speaker
    We are guilty by association and the folly of of
  • speaker
    of a Baptist ecclesiology where we were the wholly pure
  • speaker
    and all of that. Or even the classic Wesleyan,
  • speaker
    it just doesn't work for us.
  • speaker
    I said but I know you are also fearful about you losing your members.
  • speaker
    And you and we both know that that means a lot of rich people walk out the door when
  • speaker
    marriages are going on.
  • speaker
    And then he says yeah hate to admit it, but yeah there's a lot of rich people
  • speaker
    that read the Layman that are going to go.
  • speaker
    And so we're kind of shaken. And I said well here's what you need to do.
  • speaker
    The Roman Catholic Church has orders within the Catholic Church that
  • speaker
    each have their own way of doing things yet they're still under the overall structure
  • speaker
    of the papacy in the Vatican.
  • speaker
    It's time for evangelicals who have had organizations one after another of one kind
  • speaker
    or another to really have a collective order.
  • speaker
    An order of evangelicalism that says we're going to follow the constitution
  • speaker
    as it exists as a book and polity and in the Book of Order.
  • speaker
    But we're also going to hold some covenants together,
  • speaker
    commitments that we hold. And yes Jesus Christ is the only assimilation.
  • speaker
    Yes the Bible is the authoritative word of God.
  • speaker
    Yes we're committed to biblical morality in these particular categories.
  • speaker
    Those are the three things that the confessing church did
  • speaker
    and they were appropriate to say them.
  • speaker
    They just read too far in terms of splitting out of here.
  • speaker
    But you guys could do this without splitting
  • speaker
    and define yourself as an order within the church.
  • speaker
    He loved the idea I gave him. And I said by the way there's one other point that's needed there
  • speaker
    and that is that you also have a legal hammer.
  • speaker
    Because the other thing is that everyone fears that
  • speaker
    they're going to get the same treatment as women's ordination which is that unless you're
  • speaker
    willing to ordain LGBT folks you won't get a church,
  • speaker
    you won't be able to get ordained. And all of that.
  • speaker
    What
  • speaker
    they need to know is someone's got their back.
  • speaker
    And what you need to have is a committee of lawyers who will work for
  • speaker
    free, who are on the ready to walk into the office of the presbytery executive
  • speaker
    and say let's talk about so and so.
  • speaker
    Jane Doe. Pastor Jane Doe or John Doe that you're
  • speaker
    in the midst of trying to blackball.
  • speaker
    Or this church First Presbyterian
  • speaker
    or Trinity Presbyterian wherever it is that you're trying to force it.
  • speaker
    And you're not going to do that because if you are it could cost you a lot of legal fees.
  • speaker
    Let's get this thing settled and get this done.
  • speaker
    And I said you need to have the right arm of strength so you're
  • speaker
    not just a bunch of wimpy guys and gals,
  • speaker
    well guys because it was a bunch of white guys,
  • speaker
    but not just saying what you believe
  • speaker
    but actually having some strength of support for one another.
  • speaker
    He said we are having each other's back.
  • speaker
    Particularly those who are in hostile presbyteries will like that idea.
  • speaker
    Love that idea.
  • speaker
    Well he went back and proposed it and they were really percolating on that.
  • speaker
    In fact they even came out with the second paper that said we're not going to create a new denomination.
  • speaker
    We're going to function within the denomination as a company of loyal
  • speaker
    opposition.
  • speaker
    But we are going to stay. They had incredible backlash from
  • speaker
    lots of evangelicals that said unless you lead us out,
  • speaker
    we're going on our own. Which means we
  • speaker
    will disintegrate as a movement. But you either lead us
  • speaker
    or we're going otherwise.
  • speaker
    So then they came out with Plan A, Plan B.
  • speaker
    And ironically they took the word order for the group that was leaving.
  • speaker
    They didn't want to call themselves a new denomination.
  • speaker
    They didn't want to call themselves a church. But they knew they had to get incorporated.
  • speaker
    And to get incorporated as a religious organization you have to call it
  • speaker
    a church or denomination
  • speaker
    or an order. And so they said OK we'll use the word order for the new denomination.
  • speaker
    So we call it Evanglical Covenant Order of Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    And then we'll have this other group.
  • speaker
    We'll call it The Fellowship
  • speaker
    or the social community. And those are the ones that did what I
  • speaker
    said they should do. Be an order within the PC(USA).
  • speaker
    They followed that model for plan B.
  • speaker
    But they called it a community. Plan A became Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    But kept the ECO because that's how they first rolled it out.
  • speaker
    And you know that the reason that they don't know why they don't call themselves Evangelical Covenant Order is because the
  • speaker
    Evangelical Covenant Church as a denomination contacted them
  • speaker
    and said you guys can't take our name.
  • speaker
    Create a new denominations that's virtually the same name.
  • speaker
    Don't do that. That's not fair. That's not right. You've got to you've got your own identity.
  • speaker
    We've got our own. We're friends.
  • speaker
    We love Jesus but you can't take our name.
  • speaker
    So they flip flopped the words but they liked ECO as their abbreviation.
  • speaker
    So they stuck with ECO but it's actually Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
  • speaker
    So they moved forward to try to function very much having an annual
  • speaker
    gathering together as one. But then the ECO siders said no we really aren't
  • speaker
    feeling the same.
  • speaker
    Again back to my old issue with division in the church.
  • speaker
    It just tends to kind of feed on itself.
  • speaker
    And so they end up becoming two different entities.
  • speaker
    But.
  • speaker
    So that's where they went.
  • speaker
    And I kept urging people.
  • speaker
    I took a lot of speaking gigs through all those years again.
  • speaker
    Well I'm now at the Presbyterian Outlook speaking out just on
  • speaker
    unity issues and using GodViews
  • speaker
    and talking about why staying in the PC(USA) is the
  • speaker
    ideal place for evangelicals to stay. You know you're part of a larger body.
  • speaker
    And you learn from those other folks.
  • speaker
    And you also can influence those other folks. Anyway a lot of those kind of arguments that
  • speaker
    don't need to be rehashed at this point.
  • speaker
    The rest is you know where we are right now.Wwhere we have government order
  • speaker
    or ECO as a separate denomination.
  • speaker
    PC(USA) sadly diminished in numbers significantly because so many went
  • speaker
    over there. And the Fellowship community that's
  • speaker
    trying to have its own identity
  • speaker
    with some kind of disciplines. Interestingly their disciplines were
  • speaker
    largely formed by Jim Singleton who now isn't ECO
  • speaker
    but at the time was giving voice to this because he had done a doctoral research
  • speaker
    on evangelical evangelism in the southern PC(USA)
  • speaker
    and all kinds of study about how they had these commitments
  • speaker
    and relationships and mutual accountability exercised in the 1920s.
  • speaker
    And he kind of brought that to the present.
  • speaker
    So this is where we need to model our relationships as a movement within this denomination.
  • speaker
    And so they're doing their best to do that.
  • speaker
    Jerry Andrews has given great leadership to that.
  • speaker
    He's he's really kind of put in the face again as he was the face for the Coalition
  • speaker
    for so many years. He's been largely the face for the Fellowship community
  • speaker
    and in articulating that strong theological mind that he has working
  • speaker
    in tandem with the strong mind of Jim Singleton
  • speaker
    and formulating that for a model for all of them to work
  • speaker
    and live out this community experience evangelicals who
  • speaker
    are intrinsically engaged in the life PC(USA).
  • speaker
    Not running away. Not disliking
  • speaker
    but trying to be faithful in a larger body while also feeling some particular connection
  • speaker
    to that. I've never affiliated with the Fellowship community.
  • speaker
    I'm in a church where by the way when I,
  • speaker
    by the time I personally came to First Presbyterian Church of Allentown in
  • speaker
    the fall of 2016, this is a church that
  • speaker
    the day that the overture was adopted by General Assembly to allow
  • speaker
    scrupling that next week the pastor at that church
  • speaker
    did its first gay marriage.
  • speaker
    And so that church as a church has been on the cutting edge of
  • speaker
    ordination. First church to ordain a woman in the denomination sixty plus
  • speaker
    years ago. And then the first then to do a wedding.
  • speaker
    A same-sex wedding.
  • speaker
    And they asked me are you ready? Are you ready to do same-sex marriages?
  • speaker
    Yes I am.
  • speaker
    There'll be some mental adjustments to go about, but they'll all be internal because I haven't
  • speaker
    crossed that bridge yet.
  • speaker
    But I am feeling right that it's right
  • speaker
    for me to council a same-sex couple.
  • speaker
    A gay couple, a straight couple to prepare their hearts
  • speaker
    and their lives for marriage. And assuming that it goes well
  • speaker
    and that they're on target.
  • speaker
    And all those kinds of covenants and promises.
  • speaker
    I'm ready to be the one that would consecrate that
  • speaker
    and say Lord make that do miraculously in heaven what
  • speaker
    we're hoping for here. That the two become one
  • speaker
    and so goes from here.
  • speaker
    I think that might be a good place to stop. What do you think?
  • speaker
    I think that works for me.

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